noodle doodle Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 In all seriousness, what are the signs that a tradesman is either competent or a cowboy? because it seems to me that self-employed tradesmen are almost two polar opposite categories - those that can make a good living out of it because they're good - and those that slap a sign on their van because no-one else will employ them Are there like qualifications that says "worth something" and others that say "paid for it to look good" for the various sub-sectors? i don't mind paying a good price for work, i'm not after some unachievable like "sir norman foster must redesign and build my extension for £50", but not knowing the standard of tradesmen, or how to tell, puts me off getting work done altogether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Well you can hardly blame us vulgar classes when our betters, and I include you amongst them, display such poor examples of capitalisation and punctuation. Are you and your upper echelons of society not there to keep us lower classes in check ?P.S. oh and your use of language only fit for the gutter. I'm piping up to say "a good slating & well on topic" Edited September 22, 2009 by erranta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endgame Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Looks like they will need new roof trusses, ceiling, decoration and a new roof. If I got ripped off I would undo my work if i got the chance. Regarding kitchen fitting, I once saw a kitchen nailed togeather, skew nailed with 1" 1/4 ovals! Fitted by the builder! I seen loads of people who spend £10,000 on kitchen materials and then try and cut the fitting costs by getting a "handy man" to fit it. Often this ends up with a ruined kitchen and great disapointment for the sake of £500 saving. They try and get me to do the worktops, cornice and pelmets. LOL. Nevermind children getting in the way, the worst thing is the dogs. Sniffing my balls and butt, licking my ears when im leveling units, pi$$ing on my chopsaw, chewing dustbags, barking, eating my packed lunch or hasseling me when im trying to eat it. The customers just lets the animals hassel me. Gets right up my ar$e!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endgame Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 In all seriousness, what are the signs that a tradesman is either competent or a cowboy?because it seems to me that self-employed tradesmen are almost two polar opposite categories - those that can make a good living out of it because they're good - and those that slap a sign on their van because no-one else will employ them Are there like qualifications that says "worth something" and others that say "paid for it to look good" for the various sub-sectors? i don't mind paying a good price for work, i'm not after some unachievable like "sir norman foster must redesign and build my extension for £50", but not knowing the standard of tradesmen, or how to tell, puts me off getting work done altogether In my experience, a good trades man has nice tools and looks after them. If their van is a mess and the tools are all cheap old duff tools, then so will their work be. Cant do a nice job with rough tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white van man Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 You cant beat getting a recommendation on a builder and check out some of his work, go visit some of his customers. Best advice of all. Good builders won't mind you looking at previous work. I always offer to show potential customers my work as, I know it will show them what they will get for their money. On topic. Without knowing the full facts of the story posted it is hard to comment. But when things reach the stage they have it is clear that everyone is a loser. What I will say is that there are definitely people out there who have work done,with no intention of paying the full amount(even though the work is good). The worst offenders (from talking to other people in the trade) are normally those with pots of money. I can safely say that in 10 years of trading I have never had a difficult or non paying customer. I put a lot of this down to the fact that I only work on recomendation, and also that I follow a few basic rules at all times. I am the first to admit that the building trade is plagued by poor standards. It p***es me off as much as it does those who are being turned over, as we all get tarred with the same brush. (Read King Stromba's post) Good communication at all times is the key to a successful project. From a builder's point of view we need know to everything required upfront ASAP. It's no good saying I need a socket and TV point half way up the wall when the plasterer is washing his tools up. From a customers point of view I always try and give them all the possible options, both before and during work. Extras can be a big falling out point. Invariably on larger projects it is inevitable that unforseen problems will occur as the layers are peeled back. A good builder should highlight these ASAP to the customer and give them options on the work required and the extra costs involved. I always do and if they don't agree to pay for them I won't do them. At the end of the job there won't be any suprise costs. Like it or not but refreshments on offer will make a hell of a difference to builders. It shows a bit of appreciation if nothing else. I carry my own kettle and tea gear as it is surprising how many ignorant people there are who will watch you work all day without a cuppa. Bit of a generalisation but the best customer is OAP Mrs Jones. She normally has the kettle on as you pull up in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 In my experience, a good trades man has nice tools and looks after them. If their van is a mess and the tools are all cheap old duff tools, then so will their work be. Cant do a nice job with rough tools. It's a favourite cliche that 'a bad workman always blames his tools'. It's complete b0llocks too. Once you get your hands on some decent trade quality tools instead of cheap sh1t from a DIY store you soon realise the job wasn't nearly as hard as you thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle doodle Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 In my experience, a good trades man has nice tools and looks after them. If their van is a mess and the tools are all cheap old duff tools, then so will their work be. Cant do a nice job with rough tools. I agree there, I can happily bodge my own diy for nowt using a screwdriver as a chisel and supergluing a bit of sandpaper to the front of a power drill for that sanding perfection (neither worked ), but when a supposedly pro tradesman rocks up with a rusty hammer and asks if I've got a philips-head screwdriver knocking about, it's a bit late to query innit ;-) - well for non-confrontational types like me it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endgame Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Also, make it clear when payments are due and regularly discuss the money so both the customer and yourself are of the same mind. I used to work for a guy who did not discuss with the customer the cost of extras, and he often fell out with them over money at the end. Customers get well pi$$ed off when the builder does not dedicate himself to only their job but tries to do loads of other jobs at once. Waste of time moving your tools about too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hectors House Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Under Contract Law the builder is in the wrong. I have always found that a compromise can be reached if both sides are reasonable. Under Criminal Law the builder is wrong. TBH he has been a bit of a prat, and his mate an even bigger one for going along with it. Criminal damage with intent to danger life.... 6-9 months inside (even without a custodial sentence he is finished) can't see his business surviving, who would give him work in the future with all the bad publicity? I suppose his mate will be bleating on about a family to support and feed...should have thought about that before becoming a criminal, my heart bleeds not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Also, make it clear when payments are due and regularly discuss the money so both the customer and yourself are of the same mind. I used to work for a guy who did not discuss with the customer the cost of extras, and he often fell out with them over money at the end. Customers get well pi$$ed off when the builder does not dedicate himself to only their job but tries to do loads of other jobs at once. Waste of time moving your tools about too. Yep, that's a particular bugbear of mine. I didn't ask them to do me a favour by doing the job, I asked them if they could do the job. If they were too busy, that's what the answer should have been. They then disappear for days on end and don't answer your calls, then moan when you don't answer their calls when they're chasing the bill. Paying for materials directly is a way of keeping things clear as to where things stand on the money side, A lot get sniffy though if you supply your own materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white van man Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Yep, that's a particular bugbear of mine. I didn't ask them to do me a favour by doing the job, I asked them if they could do the job. If they were too busy, that's what the answer should have been. They then disappear for days on end and don't answer your calls, then moan when you don't answer their calls when they're chasing the bill. Paying for materials directly is a way of keeping things clear as to where things stand on the money side, A lot get sniffy though if you supply your own materials. I actually quite like it when customers want to supply their own materials. It is one great big hassle taken off of me. I don't have to waste time driving about to collect materials, or arrange deliveries and hope they turn up on time. And when something is damaged or delivered in error it's their problem not mine. I'd rather be on site doing what I enjoy. Nothing worse than wasting an hour stuck in traffic trying to pick up a bag of cement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispindry Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 This country was built on cups of tea. I bet my last bacon sarnie that the miserable customer bint never made the builder a cuppa. I also bet she never offered a little plate with a kit-kat and a jaffa cake on it.... Here's the science bit : Total project cost = £60,000 Cost of big old box of biscuits, tea bags, coffee, old ( they get broken) mugs and wot-not = £10 ish Cost of being nice = 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Stromba Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I'll unblock yo' mamma anytime she fancies .....And I bet she makes me a brew afterwards Ahh...white van man humour. Perhaps for one day you could attempt to be a professional craftsman, and stop with the continual stand up routines and call people by their name or 'sir' and not 'sunshine'? You would probably find people more amenable towards you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benthebuilder Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Ahh...white van man humour. Perhaps for one day you could attempt to be a professional craftsman, and stop with the continual stand up routines and call people by their name or 'sir' and not 'sunshine'? You would probably find people more amenable towards you. Which century do you live in mush? You really do think you are a cut above the tradesman don't you. Professional craftsmen call people sir and have no sense of humour. You're a living breathing episode of upstairs downstairs aint ya. You have made a few judgements about my work/business ethic based on a few of my responses to your shitty attitude to tradesmen on an anonymous website ( I'd like to see you voicing your opinions down the pub). Reckon the dunces hat in your avatar has some significance somewhere. Maybe mummy made you wear it when you blocked the toilet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwatkins Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Which century do you live in mush? You really do think you are a cut above the tradesman don't you. Professional craftsmen call people sir and have no sense of humour. You're a living breathing episode of upstairs downstairs aint ya.You have made a few judgements about my work/business ethic based on a few of my responses to your shitty attitude to tradesmen on an anonymous website ( I'd like to see you voicing your opinions down the pub). Reckon the dunces hat in your avatar has some significance somewhere. Maybe mummy made you wear it when you blocked the toilet. I think we would all agree on one thing. Never get a "mate" to do any job. He always ends up an ex-mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number79 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Ah, and there's me thinking the words "domestic and commercial" written on the side of their vans might suggest that they know something other than housebashing.And why's it so difficult to get a test cert from these guys? "I'll stick it in the post, mate."- But it never arrives............strangely, the invoice always turns up! They all say "domestic and commercial" but the reality is that in most cases they are trying to be a jack of all, if you want commercial/industrial sparks then pro's won't have the word 'domestic' on anything. Difficult to get installation/test certs - because they don't want to put on paper that they were responsible for the job , and because they aren't qualified to inspect/test the work on completion . Don't pay unless you recieve an installation certificate for the work and make sure that it has the schedule of test results attached to it - this is required for every job under current regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbux Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 snipBit of a generalisation but the best customer is OAP Mrs Jones. She normally has the kettle on as you pull up in the morning. From the conversation I overheard a couple of weeks ago, some OAP's in our area go as far as making sandwiches and even cooking meals - apparently getting quite offended that the plumber thinks he needs to bring his own lunch. I felt quite tight for my plentiful supply of brews and biscuits. Currently about half way through renovating our house. Where possible we only book tradesmen during term-time, the kettle is always on as soon as I return from the school run, and I make sure I'm around to answer any queries and discuss any problems that have been found. New to the area we pick our tradesmen on a combination of recommendation, instinct, and price - in that order. Sparky was recommended by the very helpful BT engineer who fixed the mess that the previous occupants left, asked the sparky for a plasterer, plasterer recommended a door shop, door shop recommended a chippy... Anyone who gives me the creeps doesn't get the job (seeing as I'll be alone in the house with them). Treat me like the 'little woman' and you'll not get the work either, if you can't discuss the job with me you are unlikely to discuss problems and possible solutions. I'll smile sweetly as you do it, but you won't get the work. As for price. Generally the ones that have quoted the highest, have already given me the creeps or been patronising too. Anyway, I live about 20 minutes drive from the now roofless house, OH passes the end of that road on his commute. The thing that is puzzling me about the story is why the owner was using a builder from Skeggy (unless he has moved there since?) To me that says either the owners had a reputation for being a PIA/not paying and the local tradesmen wouldn't touch them, or that the builder was too well-known on his own patch and was casting his net further to hide his reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markxjr Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 My company installs roofs, we do not invoice the customer until he/she has inspected and is 100% happy with the installation. A DVD is also supplied with clear digital images of the installation, via each stage, start to finish. Still, I often have to threaten to remove the materials to obtain paymant or witheld part payments. I'd be happy to do so too :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachman Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 ooh i like you.dont need any gas work doing do you? my dad spent 35 years with BG as an emergency engineer. So that one's covered. I also have excellent comeback if he fails to tidy up his piping properly or leaves me with clanking pipes.... my mother doesn't feed him at all until he fixes it....He's the only tradesman I use that complains that I only have orange Clubs, and he likes Mint though..... RE- the roof installer - that's risky, and an absolute bugger for cashflow. What will you do when a customer goes under and you've had nothing on account ? Even if your suppliers are on 90 days, you still have to bridge it. With respect, you're inviting trouble there..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markxjr Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 RE- the roof installer - that's risky, and an absolute bugger for cashflow. What will you do when a customer goes under and you've had nothing on account ? Even if your suppliers are on 90 days, you still have to bridge it. With respect, you're inviting trouble there..... I have never used credit facilities at any merchants, not one day never mind 90! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benthebuilder Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think we would all agree on one thing. Never get a "mate" to do any job. He always ends up an ex-mate. Dead right.... one of my mates mithered with me to lift some flags in his back garden and relay them as patio nearer the house and turf the remaining area. Asked him to get a couple up to tell me what was underneath. He rang me back and said just a bit of sand. Gave him a "mates rates" price and said i'd go and do it on the monday and guess what....flags laid on solid concrete barring three on the edge that had been added later...two of which he'd lifted. Told him we now needed a skip and it was gonna take longer and cost a bit more...tho I was still doing it for £70 a day...he went fookin mental said how could i try rippin him off. Told him to stick it and walked off the job. Another lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachman Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I have never used credit facilities at any merchants, not one day never mind 90!whatever you do, don't let your bank get a consultant in to your business for a 'free review'. You'll have a heart attack at what they suggest.I do stand by my comment - you are running a large and obvious risk, but I am sure you're well aware of it - it's just that life will be getting tougher not easier in the next two years and a £10K hole (having had 50% up front) is a lot better than a £20K hole.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markxjr Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 whatever you do, don't let your bank get a consultant in to your business for a 'free review'. You'll have a heart attack at what they suggest. Had them, "businesss managers" what a joke. Clueless idiots spouting corporate useless mantra. I do stand by my comment - you are running a large and obvious risk, but I am sure you're well aware of it - it's just that life will be getting tougher not easier in the next two years and a £10K hole (having had 50% up front) is a lot better than a £20K hole.... I know what you are saying, I could have been more specific, I stopped full re-roofs years ago, now we specialise in small flat roofs, garages, extensions, dormers, using rubber or fibreglass, that sort of job. Material costs can be measured in £100's. It is a very tightly run ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Had them, "businesss managers" what a joke. Clueless idiots spouting corporate useless mantra. I know what you are saying, I could have been more specific, I stopped full re-roofs years ago, now we specialise in small flat roofs, garages, extensions, dormers, using rubber or fibreglass, that sort of job. Material costs can be measured in £100's. It is a very tightly run ship. I'm sure it is, sadly I suspect for a lot of builders running their cashflow and trying to keep various jobs on the go at one time and everyone happy is where a lot of problems come in regarding relationships with customers. Often you'll find the problem that it really is quite difficult to juggle keeping a full order book, delivering things broadly on time and keeping customers happy all in a manner that makes a profit............ personally if I employee a glorifed one man band then I'll expect both a cheap price and the need to felxible on timings within reason. Builders often need to part invoice, builders need to portect themselves by invoicing as much as possible as they go along, customers meanwhile often feel ripped off by the demands for money and often suspect they are being lured into a situation where the job may cost more than expected or not be finished to an acceptable standard..... that is often the issue in my view, and the only way round it is for everyone to understand whats going to happen upfront. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Stromba Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) Which century do you live in mush? You really do think you are a cut above the tradesman don't you. No. I know people involved in making and building things and none of them feel it necessary to act like cocky tw@ts while doing their trade, and none feel it necessary to expect tea while working. People probably would not think they were a cut above you if you didnt call them 'mush' and didnt behave like a cowboy, with your stupid ringtones, blase attitude to requests and your superiority complex. A little humility never hurt anyone. If i go to someones house, i take my shoes off and treat their space with respect. If they ask me to make less noise i do, because it's their house and it's their rules. If you dont like the lack of tea and laying down of ground rules, then i suggest you go to ireland and work in the building trade there.... ...oh wait (coming soon to a country near you * ). * Edited September 23, 2009 by King Stromba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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