white van man

I actually quite like it when customers want to supply their own materials. It is one great big hassle taken off of me. I don't have to waste time driving about to collect materials, or arrange deliveries and hope they turn up on time. And when something is damaged or delivered in error it's their problem not mine. I'd rather be on site doing what I enjoy. Nothing worse than wasting an hour stuck in traffic trying to pick up a bag of cement.

Best advice of all. Good builders won't mind you looking at previous work. I always offer to show potential customers my work as, I know it will show them what they will get for their money. On topic. Without knowing the full facts of the story posted it is hard to comment. But when things reach the stage they have it is clear that everyone is a loser. What I will say is that there are definitely people out there who have work done,with no intention of paying the full amount(even though the work is good). The worst offenders (from talking to other people in the trade) are normally those with pots of money. I can safely say that in 10 years of trading I have never had a difficult or non paying customer. I put a lot of this down to the fact that I only work on recomendation, and also that I follow a few basic rules at all times. I am the first to admit that the building trade is plagued by poor standards. It p***es me off as much as it does those who are being turned over, as we all get tarred with the same brush. (Read King Stromba's post) Good communication at all times is the key to a successful project. From a builder's point of view we need know to everything required upfront ASAP. It's no good saying I need a socket and TV point half way up the wall when the plasterer is washing his tools up. From a customers point of view I always try and give them all the possible options, both before and during work. Extras can be a big falling out point. Invariably on larger projects it is inevitable that unforseen problems will occur as the layers are peeled back. A good builder should highlight these ASAP to the customer and give them options on the work required and the extra costs involved. I always do and if they don't agree to pay for them I won't do them. At the end of the job there won't be any suprise costs. Like it or not but refreshments on offer will make a hell of a difference to builders. It shows a bit of appreciation if nothing else. I carry my own kettle and tea gear as it is surprising how many ignorant people there are who will watch you work all day without a cuppa. Bit of a generalisation but the best customer is OAP Mrs Jones. She normally has the kettle on as you pull up in the morning.

No problem. Thats right. All "dirty water" goes for treatment through the one system. As far as I know all surface water ie rainwater goes into local streams and rivers. Reason being that it doesn't then overload the sewage system. The enviroment agency know when many people are putting dirty water into the surface water system because it shows up in the local streams/rivers. A couple of years ago in my area, residents near to local rivers had visits from the EnvAgy to check up!! All those with washing machines etc discharging into surface water drains were told to re route the plumbing into the appropriate drains!!

It is fine (under building regs) for a toilet/washroom to open into a kitchen. No need for a lobby. It should have mechanical ventilation (extractor fan) with an over run timer (if there is no opening window) There should also be a wash basin in there. There are two types of drainage system in a domestic situation. Foul water (sewage) should take all dirty water/waste from the house. This will include washing machine waste water as well as toilet and bath washing waste. The other system is rain water. The two are seperate and it is not permited for the two to mix. Both main drains under the ground are normally at least 4" in diameter. A foot from the surface is not unusual. The new toilet will be subject to building regs as the foul water drainage has been altered and added to.

It will if they are hard boiled!

Periodic inspection and testing is necessary because all installations deteriorate over time due to damage, wear and tear, ageing, corrosion and excessive loading. Legislation requires that electrical installations are maintained in a safe condition and therefore must be periodically inspected and tested. Public bodies that may require a PIR are licensing authorities, local councils, insurance companies and mortgage lenders. Arrogant? Why? Because I wouldn't trust a PIR carried out by someone with no electrical background or qualifications. Damn right. I see on a regular basis, dangerous electrical work carried out by DIYers who think they are competant. Inspection and testing is not as easy as a hired test meter and a set of instructions. People place trust in a PIR, in that it is proving an installation is safe. You are giving the impression that a PIR is not hard to carry out and anyone can do them correctly. You are wrong. I too am out of this thread

All electrical work requires a test certificate regardless of Part P. This is a requirement under BS7671. There are limited works that are not notifiable to the local authority, however it should be tested and a minor works certificate should be issued. Any work needing an Installation certificate will need to be notified under Part P. As for a PIR there is a bit more involved than an intelligent person with a set of instructions and some hired test equipment.For a start you need knowledge of wiring systems, earthing arrangements, supply characteristics BS7671 etc etc. You also need to know how to test, what the tests are telling you, and if they comply. Then you will need knowledge on how to complete the various parts of the report. It is correct that anyone can carry out a PIR, however, I would not place an ounce of trust a PIR carried out by someone who was not an electrician at the very least. Even then the minimum qualification they should have is city and guilds 2391.They should also have professional indemnity insurance in place. Mr DIY with his Hire shop tester will not cut it.

My thoughts exactly. I think the vendor has got an effing cheek, trying to impose their will, forever after they have gone. They're selling the place FFS. If they love the place that much, so as to care what happens to it, they shouldn't be selling. They might oppose everything you ever want to do. It is difficult enough to sell a place in this climate as it is, without stipulating b0**0x like this! Steer well clear and watch them struggle to sell it.

The installation of an electric cooker is different from replacing a light fitting. You would have to ensure that the fixed wiring supply and breaker/fuse is capable of carrying the load of the new appliance. If the cooker load is greater than 2KW, then then cooker must now be on its own dedicated radial circuit. Assuming that original supply is adequate then connecting the cooker would not be notifiable under Part P. However any good electrician would test the circuit prior to connection to ensure that earth fault disconnection times would be met. This would ensure that the cooker would not become live under fault conditions.

Sorry, but you are wrong. It is a requirement of BS 7671 IEE wiring regs, that all electrical work is inspected, tested and a relevant certificate is issued prior to the work being put into use. Minor work is also required to be certified under Part P and a relavent minor works certificate has to be issued.

You won't get any English grown cucumbers during the winter months. The English growing season runs from around March/April to September/ October. After that it is un-economical to grow cumbers in Britain. They are grown hyroponically in huge greenhouses here in England. The growers also have to use large amounts of heating oil during the colder months, which obviously adds to the cost. There are a lot of imports from Holland during this period as well. During the mid 90's I used to run cucumbers, peppers and other veg back from the South coast of Spain during the winter months. It normally takes 3 days to get back. Add another 2-3 days for packing, transport to supermarket distribution centres and then transported on to stores and most veg is probably getting on for a week old before it is sold.

Correct. All you do is pay the local building control to inspect the work and windows, and they will issue the relavent certificate of compliance. This will be required (in place of a FENSA certificate)should you sell the property.FENSA is for window companies to self certify their own work, and FENSA issue a 10 year insurance backed guarentee to cover you against faulty workmanship, should the window company go out of business.

I didn't hear anyone involved in BTL complaining about fraud a year or so ago though. When all their properties were rising in value by a zillion % p.a. it was a "good business". Now their pwoperdees are worth J@ck Sh1t -it's fraud. Can't have it both ways.

If I understand you correctly then I agree. A main service fuse's purpose is to protect the main tails to the installation, nothing more. If it is rated at 60 amps and current flowing is less than 1 amp then it will never blow. Herein lies the danger though, as anyone subjected to this current flow is in danger of dying. No it's not. Not saying it happens in every single case, but you are very lucky if you can get away with no injuries after coming into contact with live parts at the origin of an installation. It is not uncommon for people to be thrown back or die in this situation. Sorry but are you saying that you have recieved two or three shocks at the origin of a installation, before the meter, without serous injury or being thrown back? I find that hard to believe but I not impossible I guess. Not quite sure what you are saying here.Sorry Depends on what circuit protection you have in place and what the situation is. If all you have is a fuse or MCB as protection and the situation is direct contact, then you will not be protected, and yes instinct is all you have. Wouldn't place a lot of faith in it though. You are not unique in not dying from an electric shock, just as the dead are not unique in dying from an electric shock.

Thanks. I agree.

Sorry. You are right and I stand corrected. So. I was replying to a post concerning people dying whilst trying to bypass the meter. The only protection afforded at this point in the installation is the main service fuse. The potential fault current reaches thousands Amps at this point. IF you are very very lucky and recieve a shock at this point in the installation, you will be thrown across the room. Unlucky and you will be fried- guaranteed. You will only be protected by Minituare Circuit Breakers upstream from the Consumer unit/fuse board. The vast majority of installations now have modern consumer units that contain MCB's and RCD's. They will save you if earth fault loop impedance conditions are met.If they are not met then the current will be flowing through you until it is cut off by which time you will probably be dead.It also depends on where the current passes through the body.ie across the heart from one arm to another = increased danger of heart stopping. Standing in water increases this risk as does the age of the person.

50 milli Amps (50 millionths of one Amp) across the heart is enough to kill a person. The main supply fuse (before the meter) on the average domestic property, is usually rated between 60 - 100 Amps!! I have seen plenty of examples of DIY electrical work on my travels and most of it is truly frightening. Still if it saves a few quid WTF.

TBH I don,t know what training is in involved to become a solicitor, but it is obvious that there is a lot involved. But the same appllies to a trade, albeit in a different way. I do honestly feel that had I been that way inclined then I could have become a solicitor, accountant or whatever. Truth be known I hated school, and the thought of studying for another 5-6 years and going into a profession just didn't appeal to me at 16. I wanted to work with my hands, and today, 20 years later I still love working in the building trade. I fully appreciate that professionals may feel justified in feeling fed up at the fact that, after long years of study and training their wages are no higher than a tradesman's. But the fact remains that only a certain amount of practical skills can be taught, the rest have to be learn't by actually doing the tasks in a work based enviroment.During this learning phase of around 4 years the wages are pretty $hit. People can take as many construction courses as they like but without any experience they won't stand much of a chance getting work. For the past 3 years I have studied electrical installation at college on day release. I am now fully qualified. When I carry out electrical work it must be done safely to the highest standard. People's lives are in danger from electrocution or fire caused by unsafe work. The same goes for gas work and to a certain extent structural building work. As far a I am aware nobody has ever died as a result of bad advice from a solicitor, or from bad book-keeping, by an accountant. Perhaps now you can appreciate the value of a good tradesman. Why do you think that? I left school at 16 and went straight on to the YTS on £27 a week doing the $hit that no-one else wanted to do for 3 years. If that wasn't starting at the bottom, I give up. I accepted it as I could see it as a means to an end. Most tradesmen start at the bottom, they have to. No plasterer is going to let the apprentice loose on a ceiling on his first day. No electrician would let the apprentice connect a fuse board after the first month on the job. Apprentices get to do all the menial tasks until they can prove a certain apptitude. The best and most dedicated get to work on more complicated areas of their trade sooner than less capable ones. On a more personal note, I have been self employed for 8 years now. I consider myself to be one of the best and most dedicated at my work. This is fully borne out by having a regular supply of work (generally 6-8 months booked in advance), hundreds of satisfied customers with not one complaint in 8 years, and a good liveable wage. They are my rewards. I feel fully justified in earning the amount that I do, and this is supported by the fact that clients will wait months for me to get to them, will pay my prices without quibble, offer me repeat business without getting other quotes and recomend me to others. True, but the demand was there regardless of the driving forces behind it. Problem is every man and his dog started up as a "tradesman" charging what they liked. The large majority of the general public are not astute enough to recognize the difference between a professional job and a bodge up. Result : building trade and anyone in it is a ripoff. Depends on what their trade is and how good they are really. A good bricklayer can earn around £700 - £800 a week before tax. In that week he can lay upto 4000 facing bricks. I consider that extremely good value for money, what would you consider to be a fair wage? That's still only £36,000 a year (based on a 48 week year). If someones life depends upon the work being carried out safely then why not? £50,000 a year is a small price to pay for someones life to be protected. Tbh some of the wages bandied about on here are complete b0ll0x. £50,000 a year or more, may be achievable for some, namely rippoff merchants, owners of building companies and emergency callout firms, but I would say the average for a good trade is somewhere in the region of £30 -35 k a year if you want to work your balls off. I agree that tradesmen have cashed in on HPI but the demand for their services was there so who can blame them? A lot of people have lost sight of the fact that a house is a home not a cash machine. You cannot blame a tradesman If people want to MEW to infinity to try and add "value" to their house. The problem was that HPI encouraged a lot of incompetent shysters to enter the building trade and also cash in on this boom riding on the backs of decent tradesmen. People would have to spend £7k on central heating, (regardless of the value of their house) if that was the cost and it needed doing. As for extensions and other work; I agree that there a lot of people who have had work done to add value, but believe it or not, their are still a hell of a lot of normal people out there who give a to$$ about the value of their house. Maybe I work for unusual people, but I can't recall carrying out work for anyone who was trying to add value to their house. Everyone I work for justifies the cost through an improvement in the living enviroment. They would have ,(and are still having) the work done, regardless of the value of their house. The cost of building work has risen for a variety of reasons not just wages. Material costs have risen on average 8-10% a year for as long as I can remember. The government have added aggregate tax onto materials as well. (stealth tax) The cost of rubbish disposal has doubled over the last 8 years (average skip costs £200 up from £80 in 2000).(Mainly Stealth Tax again) The government has kept on increasing specifcations of materials required to conform to Building Regs (Thickness of walls/ insulation mainly) Decreased supply of materials due to demand from other countries mainly China, has further pushed up material costs. All these costs have to be passed onto the customer. I know that these days, material costs make up at least 50% of the build cost of an extension. Add in rubbish removal, machinery hire costs, certifications required, etc etc, etc. You would be surprised how much profit there actually is in your average extension. TBH I think that you are just plucking figures out of the air to try and build an example. But I do appreciate to a degree the point you are trying to make. Tradesmens wages have risen considerably but then so has everything else in Gordons wonder world. Tradesmen (and I know this is a generalisation) haven't been charging a fair price, they've been charging the maximum they can get away with so that people still thought they were "printing money".. We've now got a crazy situation where the big houses in most towns and villages are owned by tradesmen who have minted it in during the house bubble - I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to afford these houses, and I don't knock them for it.. I'm just saying that I don't feel any sympathy now their charges are being forced down - because in my eyes they are no different to the BTLers, bankers and estate agents who all profited and had a vi in HPI, they make on the up, and lose on the down... I agree that £250 for 2 hours work is a pi$$ take and people who are charging this are w@nk£r$ who give the good guys a bad name. I ******* hate them. They are generally shysters who prey on people who know no better. However people have to take responsibility for their own actions and decide whether or not this is fair. If they think it is fair and pay it then they are only encouraging these to$$ers to stay in business. Look. Sometimes giving people an estimate, is a bit of guessing game. You can never be 100% certain of what problems you will encounter, until you start the job. So what do you do? Price it as though everything will run smoothly and hope you don't encounter problems. What if you hit problems and have to charge extra, the customer may think you are ripping them off. Over price it to cover your a$$. The customer might think you are trying to rip them off! £200 a day ( on day work) is very optomistic if you ask me. But if someone is willing to pay it how can that be taking the pi$$. If you offer your services at £1000 a day people still have the option to say no. Thanks. I like to think I am one of the good guys. You are spot on. There are a lot of w@nK£rs out there. More than you think. The trouble is they give everyone a bad name and they really p!$$ me off. If it wasn't for them I feel that the good ones of us would be valued much more. On the other hand people who have had bad experiences, and then label the whole trade as rip off get on my t!t$ as well, as do tho$e who are revelling in the misfortune of others.

TBH Steve I think it is unfair that anyone has to lose their job, N0b or not. Unlike the OP and other bitter posters on here I will not take pleasure in anyones suffering. I went through the last recession, albeit as an 18 - 20 year old. Being in the building trade since leaving school I know what a recession does to construction. I saw a lot of good people wiped out in the 90's, through no fault of their own, and they worked their ar$es off to make a good life for themselves later on. Some c0cks on here just don't think about what they are posting, but I don't wish on them, what is coming. They have to live with the bitterness welling up inside them, that for me is payback enough.

A voice of common sense. In my area I am hearing that whilst work is tailing off for quite a few builders, those with a good reputation, who get work by word of mouth, are snowed under. Next year however will be tough for everyone in the building trade, I fear. Should please a few n0bs on here though.

Good for you. I have nothing against people who do DIY. I will always have a go at anything that I think I am capable of doing well. You are right it is not neurosurgery. But there are 100's of thousands of people who are just not capable of doing practical tasks. My brother for example. He has been to uni and had a variety of well paid IT jobs and is a genius with computers. But he will be the first to admit that he is useless at DIY. After 3 attempts at putting a shelf on his plasterboard wall he had to give up. Its horses for courses. The money aspect, as I keep saying is largely down to supply and demand. There is a shortage of good reliable trustworthy tradesmen and this is somewhat reflected in the prices quoted together with the ever increasing costs of running a business.

Yes. The trouble is, some posters on here think that "scummy" tradesmen magically appear on site every day, having travelled to work via teleportation and therefore do not have to factor in immaterial transport costs

You have obviously chosen the wrong career path. Why not retrain as a plumber? It's not hard. A 6 week course should see you set up, and then you should be earning in the region of £640 a day for 8 hours. When you are up and running I wouldn't mind a job. I would be willing to work for you for £200 a day.That way with both of us working you could increase your daily income to £1080. I am more than happy to pay the correct rate of tax and NI from my earnings.

Good post. My old man 63 been building for most of his working life. Still working with both knees shot. So much so that he literally falls into the bath at night as he has no support or strength left in one knee. Still grafts 5 days a week.No pension still lives in a 3 bed semi. Yeah he's really raked it in. My father in law a bricklayer is 67 and is still laying a 1000 bricks a day. No pension. Can't afford to retire. 67 FFS. Most people on here couldn't move a 1000 bricks from one place to another, let alone bend over all day laying them. That's why a good tradesman is worth £150 a day! These 2 alone would leave all the whinging pen pushers on here gasping for breath after the first hour on a monday morning.

I am not denying that anyone COULD build an extension given enough time, but would it be to as good a standard as a tradesman could produce.In the majority of cases I suspect not. I personally have had to act as a maths and English teacher to both of my children to supplement their sometimes poor education and given enough time and training I am sure that I would be capable of becoming a solicitor if I so wished. The point I was trying to make is that if you do not possess the required skills or knowledge for a trade or profession then you will have to pay for that knowledge and skill. Why should the renumeration for a manual trade be less than that for a profession. A lot of work may not be specialized, but a lot of work requires a high level of practical skill and knowledge of application of that skill. Experience is a vital part of construction work that cannot be taught. It can only be learn't through years of work. As an example: Try opening up the back wall of a house and fitting a 5metre steel weighing a quarter of a ton with no machinery. You will only find how "specialized" this is when you have finished and the wall above hasn't collapsed around you. As for training: Most trades such as plastering, brickwork, carpentry, electrical etc take in the region of 5 years of combined work based training and college courses to acheive the required standard of competency and speed, before a proper tradesman is considered qualified, which is a lot longer than lots of other jobs. I don't feel that tradesmen should or should not earn more or less than anyone else. The market plays a large part in the determination of wages through the execution of supply and demand. The argument of what a customer is willing to pay for a particular job also plays a large part in the determination of wages. It is surprising, the number of potential customers who already have a price for the job in their minds, before I have even quoted for the work. As for plumbers earning more than accountants. If there is a shortage of plumbers, as there was a few years ago, then this will drive wages up. If there is an over supply of accountants this will drive their wages down. Supply and demand again. A few years ago, the tabloids were writing ridiculous articles about plumbers earning £100,000 a year. Result: every man and his dog went on a 6 week training course to become a plumber. My mate helps to run a plumbing business. They get on average 20 calls a week from people who have been on these courses. His company needs HEATING ENGINEERS with experience, not plumbers. There is a difference. No-one on his firm earns anywhere near £100,000 a year and they are a very expensive company. The whole of this part of your post smacks of jealousy to me. It seems what you are saying, is that builders,electricians etc shouldn't have the opportunity to better themselves through hard work and application of their skills. Are you seriously saying that without the recent HPI they wouldn't have got to where they are? The problem with this country and the perception of the building trade is that it is all one big ripoff. Every tradesman is tarred with the same brush. I will be the first to admit that our industry is plagued with more than it's fair share of shysters, and from the many posters experiences a lot of critisism is justified. I get seriously p1ssed off with the so-called tradesmen who are doing untold damage to our business. However people like you with your views really get on my t1ts. You make too many assumptions. There are a lot of good tradesmen out there who bend over backwards for difficult customers who have'nt got a clue about what they want or how it can be acheived. We are NOT all the same.