Builder Tears Down Family's Roof

[ollk]

What did the builder actually expect to gain from this exercise? Sympathy? Extra payment for the time spent ripping down the roof? Materials back? Yeah, they're going to be reusable aren't they! Maybe new clients won't notice?

I don't have sympathy for him I am afraid. The builders actions speak volumes more about him than anything that has been said or appears to be done by the owners! At the very least he has absolutely no business sense!

I worked (ashamedly) for a builder who offered sub-par work (not quite cowboy but came close) and on the face of things it never appeared to be him at fault, Very, very good at convincing 3rd parties (including family and friends) to 'understand' his point of view and was never, unless glaringly obvious in the wrong. Customers were NEVER right - I could often see the opposite though!

I actually suspect the owners had issues which were not satisfactorily sorted. I am sure the last 5 years there will have been plenty of correspondence with neither party being satisfied. 15k out of 60k sounds a lot but if new builders need to be called in after such a big project it will possibly leave them further out of pocket!

I will personally never undertake such tasks without references and a clear contract agreed by both parties so that is where the clients fail.

[abharrisson]

Builders should expect an element of bad debt ( unfortunately it comes with the territory)... on a £60,000 job that builder should have priced in say at least a 20% margin ( £12,000 or so)... he should also have had a contract ( they said he had a fixed price contract) that he could enforce. The normal remedies are arbitration or the courts... if the builder had a clear cut case then he should have been able to retrieve his money, if he didn't have a clear cut case then perhpas there was some fualt there.

Either way I do personally think its wrong to take the law into your own hands in a matter like that... I am surprised the builder pretty much completed the job with £15,000 still outstanding.. you would have thought he would have managed it so that he had less outstading and therefore at risk than that towards the end.

[Killer Bunny]

duplicate

Edited September 22, 2009 by Jonathan Davis WM

[Killer Bunny]

Marathon_Man

On the morning of that scene shoot, Hoffmann was found in a walk in freezer preparing for the scene.

"What are you doing?" asks Olivier.

'Oh, preparing for the dentists scene, Larry' replies Hoffmann

"Oh, dear boy" replies Olivier, "Why don't you try acting?"

[Number79]

i think 21 posts is quite enough from you fella.

Jog on.

[Number79]

"my brickie sent his semi pro bodybuilder son round to take the walls down..... - my sparky, plumber, plasterer, gardener and groundworks guy also have identical stories about working and not getting paid or being offered a lot less once the job's nearly done - none of them will take the work now - they just quote in the stratosphere so they don't get it."

Don't even waste my time going round to quote it.

Had one who even told me on the phone his name was Rossi and that he was italian so I asked his neighbour on the way out.....who pi55ed himself laughing.

Wait for the "are you 2 in the BNP?" posts to start.

I knew exactly what group you two were talking about when I read your posts. All true, every word of it - jobs I did always ended up being double the work for half the quote until I stopped quoting for them. Not worth the hassle - ever!

[Saving For a Space Ship]

[Guest_FaFa!_*]

Call me Mr Thicky, but isn't this what the small claims court is for? If the builder feels hard done by, he can sue. Let the court sort it out. Why has this taken 5 years to come to a head? We are not being told something here - and I suspect the builder either (i) didn't go to court and decided to take matters into his own hands or (ii) went to court and lost because the judge found with the client that the work was shabby and not worth the amount demanded, whereupon the builder got pissed off and took matters into his own hands.

Cannot say I sympathise that much . If you are a builder worried about being ripped off, get it written down! If you do get ripped off, go to court.

[Moley]

Under Contract Law the builder is in the wrong. I have always found that a compromise can be reached if both sides are reasonable.

[Ash4781]

"He was on a fixed fee, of which he received just over three quarters of the money and he hadn't got the finances to progress the works satisfactorily."

I don't know the trade but speculating he screwed up the fee. Are fixed fees normal ?

Edited September 22, 2009 by Ash4781

[King Stromba]

At a rough guess id say that 90% of all the tradesmen i have ever dealt with have been cocky, piss taking, cowboy-esque retards.

No wonder there are so many disputes. It would be nice if they hoovered up their mess once in a while.

[too soon to buy?]

Under Contract Law the builder is in the wrong. I have always found that a compromise can be reached if both sides are reasonable.

Taking a roof down is a big deal, so I guess the builder felt that he had nowhere left to go, but it does seem strange that the small claims court were not used (or maybe they were and we just don't know about it).

We've had a bad experience with tradesmen - 1 with a contract and another without a contract.

The first problem was getting a bill for several hundred quid that related to "time spent on other jobs in addition to contract" when in actual fact, it was really to pay for the extra week it took him to complete the job ... we met in the middle in the end, neither of us were happy

the second job (without a contract) was a sparky we paid 50% upfront to secure him to start the job immediately (won't be doing that again) who then did 20% of the job, did nowt for 2 weeks and then did bits and bobs over a longer period of time - it got very heated indeed at one point after the 3rd day in a row of not turning up at all after promises to do so (making me late for work etc). Even though I'd foolishly paid him a little more, in the meantime, allegedly for parts etc I had to "fire" him after 5 weeks, because my wife was due to give birth soon and we had no power in the house. I had to pay a good deal of money to get the job finished and in places re-done - the firm I got in to finish the job were cursing the work the original bloke had done, stating how badly guys like that damage the reputation of the industry. The cheeky booger sent me a "solicitors" letter a couple of weeks later "suing" me for breach of contract and demanding the remaining 30% of the job (he'd not even completed half the job)

Moral of the story I have learned is pay more to bigger companies cos as least there seems to be some redress available.

The few ruin it for the many...

[hedgefunded]

This is why web hosting is such a great business. They don't pay. You switch them off.

[Wario]

At a rough guess id say that 90% of all the tradesmen i have ever dealt with have been cocky, piss taking, cowboy-esque retards.

So it's you that's keeping all these pikeys in beer-money, is it?

No wonder I can't get enough work even with cuttin-me-own-froat-guvnor estimates.

Are you just a poor judge of character, or too poor to justify having the job done in the first place?

Word of mouth recommendations are the only way.

If you have any mates, that is.

Here's Nigel, on telly for doing something similar.

Cheeky bugger wants fifty quid to join, mind.

http://www.roguecustomer.com/

The biggest giveaways:

1) "money's no object, we're gunna do this an' this an' this an' ..."

2) "oh, and while you're here ... I've got a couple of little things that need fixing ..."

Just clap me stetson on me nut, and make those spurs shift some gravel on the way out ...

[too soon to buy?]

Looking at the title of the thread , did anyone else have an image in their mind of a big house, with big, builder's tears running down the roof?

Poor house, it's crying builders tears*

* "builders tears" are like builders tea, but with les sugar

I'll get back to my medicine now.. just thought I'd share that image with you.

sorry

[benthebuilder]

At a rough guess id say that 90% of all the tradesmen i have ever dealt with have been cocky, piss taking, cowboy-esque retards.

No wonder there are so many disputes. It would be nice if they hoovered up their mess once in a while.

At a rough guess I'd say 90% of all the customers I deal with are cocky, piss taking retards who think they know all about the building trade because they watch tommy walsh diy shows and grand designs.

And hoover up your own mess once in a while....and keep your kids out of our way(we don't like them, no matter how much we pretend we do)......and brew up more than once a day.....and no, we can't keep the noise down, we don't give a sh1t you've been on nights!

[Guest_FaFa!_*]

At a rough guess I'd say 90% of all the customers I deal with are cocky, piss taking retards who think they know all about the building trade because they watch tommy walsh diy shows and grand designs.

And hoover up your own mess once in a while....and keep your kids out of our way(we don't like them, no matter how much we pretend we do)......and brew up more than once a day.....and no, we can't keep the noise down, we don't give a sh1t you've been on nights!

A fantastic attitude you have to the people who pay your wages and what a brilliant advert to your profession you are. It doesn't matter if 100% of your customers are "piss taking retards" - they are your customers, you know, the people what put a roof over your head. Suck it up - it is part of the job. You are not entitled to shit, let alone endless cups of tea. Or perhaps you think builders are the only ones who have to deal with arsey, demanding customers. Here's a newsflash - you aren't. If you don't like it, do some training and get another job. No-one put a gun to your head, stop ******ing moaning and get on with putting up my shelves, there's a good lad.

[benthebuilder]

A fantastic attitude you have to the people who pay your wages and what a brilliant advert to your profession you are. It doesn't matter if 100% of your customers are "piss taking retards" - they are your customers, you know, the people what put a roof over your head. Suck it up - it is part of the job. You are not entitled to shit, let alone endless cups of tea. Or perhaps you think builders are the only ones who have to deal with arsey, demanding customers. Here's a newsflash - you aren't. If you don't like it, do some training and get another job. No-one put a gun to your head, stop ******ing moaning and get on with putting up my shelves, there's a good lad.

Read the arsey post I was replying to dickwad....and put up your own fookin shelves...never in my life have i been asked to put up shelves. Maybe you don't understand the word "builder"......think you're mistaking it for "back of the local paper handyman".

[Rachman]

And hoover up your own mess once in a while....and keep your kids out of our way(we don't like them, no matter how much we pretend we do)......and brew up more than once a day.....and no, we can't keep the noise down, we don't give a sh1t you've been on nights!

job one on the first day, Make a note of exactly what tea each of the builders have (milk, 4 sugars, etc) and bring them out for them and hand them out to them when they are on the job - don't invite them to the kitchen to drink it.... . I have found that an icecold beer for them on a Friday afternoon (when they knock off about 3pm) is also a very good way to make sure that they do a slightly better job (and is money well spent).....

builders work far far far better when suitably refreshed.

Also accept that some days, you are not going to get 100% productivity, say on groundworks - builders get tired too - so don't have a go at them for that - but make sure you have a price for the job. And don't start changing spec from the original plans - that is expensive - especially with sparkies and plumbers........

[tiggerthetiger]

It takes all sorts...I have moved household furniture for nigh on 25 years and there are great people around...there are also some very paranoid defensive people who think all tradesmen are out to "rip you off"....

These people often get more done than for them than their money pays for,but are still never quite satisfied..it`s their nature and nothing will change them

I can usually tell if a job will be a good one after the first half hour or so...A cup of tea works miracles,and breaks down barriers.....The worst types are ones who havent the foggiest idea how difficult it can be to run a business and come to the table with a mindset they have no real say..so do nothing but create an atmosphere of defense..often people of intelligence but no common sense....

A tradesman should be good at his job but also have a degree in diplomacy....it`s this diplomacy that will get him reccommended,time and again.

Thank God for people who are open minded and friendly from the outset....if they ask politely if we can move an extra item and how much it will be............I will do it for nothing! If they expect me to throw on more because there is so much space left in the truck....its gonna be another fifty quid...

All it takes is honesty and meaning what you say and saying what you mean....the problem is words are a poor form of communication.. (for some)

edit : (for some)

Edited September 22, 2009 by tiggerthetiger

[ollk]

Here's Nigel, on telly for doing something similar.

Cheeky bugger wants fifty quid to join, mind.

http://www.roguecustomer.com/

Not sure what to make of that site, or him tbh. One customer bankrupted the man for a single conservatory job hey?

The hole notion of a site called roguecustomer really shows the level of respect he has for paying 'customers' in general. I can imagine the conversation during quotation. "Oh, by the way, I own a site called roguecustomers, been ripped off too many times blah blah...".

What possible use has such a site got?

[too soon to buy?]

job one on the first day, Make a note of exactly what tea each of the builders have (milk, 4 sugars, etc) and bring them out for them and hand them out to them when they are on the job - don't invite them to the kitchen to drink it.... . I have found that an icecold beer for them on a Friday afternoon (when they knock off about 3pm) is also a very good way to make sure that they do a slightly better job (and is money well spent).....

builders work far far far better when suitably refreshed.

Also accept that some days, you are not going to get 100% productivity, say on groundworks - builders get tired too - so don't have a go at them for that - but make sure you have a price for the job. And don't start changing spec from the original plans - that is expensive - especially with sparkies and plumbers........

absolutely spot on my friend. However, I have a friend from Poland who is of the view that builders etc who come to do a job in your house, should bring with them the tea, coffee etc they will drink (as you would do if you wrok in an office).

I just think that British ways are the best, i.e. a cup of tea says a thousand words...

[benthebuilder]

It takes all sorts...I have moved household furniture for nigh on 25 years and there are great people around...there are also some very paranoid defensive people who think all tradesmen are out to "rip you off"....

These people often get more done than for them than their money pays for,but are still never quite satisfied..it`s their nature and nothing will change them

I can usually tell if a job will be a good one after the first half hour or so...A cup of tea works miracles,and breaks down barriers.....The worst types are ones who havent the foggiest idea how difficult it can be to run a business and come to the table with a mindset they have no real say..so do nothing but create an atmosphere of defense..often people of intelligence but no common sense....

A tradesman should be good at his job but also have a degree in diplomacy....it`s this diplomacy that will get him reccommended,time and again.

Thank God for people who are open minded and friendly from the outset....if they ask politely if we can move an extra item and how much it will be............I will do it for nothing! If they expect me to throw on more because there is so much space left in the truck....its gonna be another fifty quid...

All it takes is honesty and meaning what you say and saying what you mean....the problem is words are a poor form of communication.. (for some)

edit : (for some)

Plenty of extra littlejobs I'll do for nothing...gratis...free of charge "whilst i'm here"...point this bit ...straighten that fencing....re-lay that wonky flag,if and only if the customer has done the brews and been pleasant about it. Otherwise its an extra charge i'm afraid. Gotta be a two way thing.

Biggest pain in the **** for me gotta be clients filling the skip with junk out of their garden/garage and thinking it's their private dump. Skips get priced in on a job just like materials so when a maxi skip gets half filled with old carpet and kids bikes it costs me £80. You should see the reaction you get when you try charging extra for that one.

[Rachman]

Skips get priced in on a job just like materials so when a maxi skip gets half filled with old carpet and kids bikes it costs me £80. You should see the reaction you get when you try charging extra for that one.

My skip guy goes nuts when he finds out that the 'garden waste and soil' he was supposed to be picking up (which he dumps on a farm rather than at a refuse site and so is much cheaper to me (and puts more cash in his pocket and some in the farmers, but nothing to the government (so they don't like it))) is full of concrete and household rubbish as well......

[Laughing Gnome]

i dont feel sorry for either party.

the builders are obviously retards. Just listening to their common working voices tells you that. short term reasoning is what gets people killed. They obviously fecked up, didnt have a contracts manager, clients representative or effective project co-ordination. Cowboys to the end.

Then again, anyone living in a big house like that should have known better and employed competent roofers.

apparently it was 3/4 paid. Full contract management should include variations which covers changes in price which also covers payment for incomplete work. The builder was wrong through and through. Hope they are forced to foot the bill for a brand new roof. One that costs more than the one they put up in the first place.

Contracts mamager, clients representative. That would be someone like you presumably?

How can the world go on with only "common working voice" types and no complete **** on the payroll to supervise.

Bring on the recession, I hope you get yours soon!

Edited September 22, 2009 by Laughing Gnome