It Job Market Goes Down Toilet

[DrGUID]

Check out the chart on this site for the number of IT jobs being advertised:

http://www.jobstats.co.uk/

We've now officially taken out the 2003 post Y2K, post dot com crash lows. What's interesting is that the current drop shows no signs of slowing, if anything it's accelerating. This fits with my anecdotal evidence of getting very few calls about jobs, and the number of geeks I know who are "resting".

This is bad - IT is (was?) one of our most profitable industries .

[Gone baby gone]

Couple of thoughts.

Perhaps the IT job market has been subject to a bit of a bubble itself? When I walked into a corporate IT department in London in the 90s, after about 10 years in IT and realised that the majority of the people in the room wouldn't know the difference between a bit and byte, I did suspect things might be overheated and IT was becoming the career of choice for failed humanities graduates.

Also, the upgrade merry-go-round seems to be slowing down. So less time spending fruitless hours wondering why your 12 month-old code doesn't work with the latest version of "Microsoft w4nkbolox for corporate numpties" and more time actually doing productive work and solving business problems, but requiring less staff.

Edited May 8, 2009 by redalert

[Guest Skinty]

Check out the chart on this site for the number of IT jobs being advertised:

http://www.jobstats.co.uk/

We've now officially taken out the 2003 post Y2K, post dot com crash lows. What's interesting is that the current drop shows no signs of slowing, if anything it's accelerating. This fits with my anecdotal evidence of getting very few calls about jobs, and the number of geeks I know who are "resting".

This is bad - IT is (was?) one of our most profitable industries .

I don't understand those average salaries. I never seen jobs advertised at those salaries! The most I've ever earned is 33K and living costs ate up all my extra income.

[scappers]

First textiles got offshored, then manufacturing, now IT. What's the big Next Thing for employment ? I can't think of one.

And there's that "Brits are overqualified" thread. A friend of mine has a photo processing shop. His new assistant has a BSc and MSc. Two degrees and got to work in a photo shop.

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

First textiles got offshored, then manufacturing, now IT. What's the big Next Thing for employment ? I can't think of one.

And there's that "Brits are overqualified" thread. A friend of mine has a photo processing shop. His new assistant has a BSc and MSc. Two degrees and got to work in a photo shop.

yeah, but degrees in what though.

[markinspain]

Couple of thoughts.

Perhaps the IT job market has been subject to a bit of a bubble itself? When I walked into a corporate IT department in London in the 90s, after about 10 years in IT and realised that the majority of the people in the room wouldn't know the difference between a bit and byte, I did suspect things might be overheated and IT was becoming the career of choice for failed humanities graduates.

Also, the upgrade merry-go-round seems to be slowing down. So less time spending fruitless hours wondering why your 12 month-old code doesn't work with the latest version of "Microsoft w4nkbolox for corporate numpties" and more time actually doing productive work and solving business problems, but requiring less staff.

Yep. The IT boom really finished around 2000. These days they're all kitchen fitters not artisans!

[GrillsBears]

Couple of thoughts.

Perhaps the IT job market has been subject to a bit of a bubble itself? When I walked into a corporate IT department in London in the 90s, after about 10 years in IT and realised that the majority of the people in the room wouldn't know the difference between a bit and byte, I did suspect things might be overheated and IT was becoming the career of choice for failed humanities graduates.

Also, the upgrade merry-go-round seems to be slowing down. So less time spending fruitless hours wondering why your 12 month-old code doesn't work with the latest version of "Microsoft w4nkbolox for corporate numpties" and more time actually doing productive work and solving business problems, but requiring less staff.

Interesting I have been contemplating a similar hypothesis.

The bubble in particular has been characterised by the explosion in IT contractors. People that formerly worked as salaried staff, freed themselves from their hosts and made themselves relatively wealthy whilst the good times rolled. There was an obvious and large discrepancy between permament staff and the contractor workforce (in terms of income). Now it seems that that contract work in the private sector is drying up, rates are falling and a few of my friends who are trying to find work can't get any at all. The sensible ones have saved enough cash to see them through for a while. The not so sensible have fantastic mortgages and in about a years time will be proper ******ed.

[D.C.]

Also, the upgrade merry-go-round seems to be slowing down. So less time spending fruitless hours wondering why your 12 month-old code doesn't work with the latest version of "Microsoft w4nkbolox for corporate numpties" and more time actually doing productive work and solving business problems, but requiring less staff.

Time to break out this T-shirt again then?

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

Check out the chart on this site for the number of IT jobs being advertised:

http://www.jobstats.co.uk/

We've now officially taken out the 2003 post Y2K, post dot com crash lows. What's interesting is that the current drop shows no signs of slowing, if anything it's accelerating. This fits with my anecdotal evidence of getting very few calls about jobs, and the number of geeks I know who are "resting".

This is bad - IT is (was?) one of our most profitable industries .

I knew this would happen in 2007 that's one reason for getting out & retraining. The other reason is that most of the people I met whilst in IT were tw4ts. It seems to go with the turf.

surely people are not surprised by this ?

salaries are lower now than they were in 2001/2002.

[ralphmalph]

According to the front page of that website. SAP skills pay 500,000 GBP average a year.

If the level of programming and QA displayed by that website is indicative no wonder IT is being offshored.

[The Masked Tulip]

I knew this would happen in 2007 that's one reason for getting out & retraining. The other reason is that most of the people I met whilst in IT were tw4ts. It seems to go with the turf.

surely people are not surprised by this ?

salaries are lower now than they were in 2001/2002.

In Wales the average permie IT salary is about the bottom rung for a nurse - certainly is in the Welsh NHS.

Frankly, bearing in mind the stress and constant retraining for IT, it is not worth doing for that money - you can do much easier and less stressful jobs for better money.

Also, the IT Consultancies are w*nk as you end up working away from home for 4 days a week - which means you are away all week and that is simply no life. No life at all.

The brightest and best people I have known in IT have got out.

[nickd]

Check out the chart on this site for the number of IT jobs being advertised:

http://www.jobstats.co.uk/

We've now officially taken out the 2003 post Y2K, post dot com crash lows. What's interesting is that the current drop shows no signs of slowing, if anything it's accelerating. This fits with my anecdotal evidence of getting very few calls about jobs, and the number of geeks I know who are "resting".

This is bad - IT is (was?) one of our most profitable industries .

According to an article in Computer Weekly a month or so back, the number of IT guys from outside EU being given visas , is now higher than during the dot-com boom. The market is apparently being flooded with cheap labour.

Also, IT is extremely vulnerable to offshoring, since you can send the product down a wire. At least outsourcing of manufacturing may be slightly reduced by the cost of shipping goods. Not so IT.

The future for IT workers in this country doesn't look good to be honest, unless the pound falls dramatically against currencies of the countries we currently outsource to. Then again, even if India gets too pricey there's all of Africa, and why shouldn't server farms be located in Ukraine, Belarus etc? No end to it in sight.

The UK looks like it may end up like Canada, which is completely flooded with degree-qualified people in under-qualified jobs. Canada has the advantage (at least during normal economic times) of plenty of well-paid blue collar work in resource industries that benefit from a cheap currency and abundant resources. Not so the UK. What are people going to do when they're £20k in student debt and cannot get a graduate job? And how is the whole student loan system meant to work if many people never earn enough to trigger the paying-it-off threshold?

[noyk]

I don't understand those average salaries. I never seen jobs advertised at those salaries! The most I've ever earned is 33K and living costs ate up all my extra income.

There is clearly something wrong with those average salaray stats. Average salary for a SAP consultant is £693,333 according to that, looks like they have added all the top salaries together and forgotten to divide! Doesn't sat much about the other stats does it

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

In Wales the average permie IT salary is about the bottom rung for a nurse - certainly is in the Welsh NHS.

Frankly, bearing in mind the stress and constant retraining for IT, it is not worth doing for that money - you can do much easier and less stressful jobs for better money.

Also, the IT Consultancies are w*nk as you end up working away from home for 4 days a week - which means you are away all week and that is simply no life. No life at all.

The brightest and best people I have known in IT have got out.

that is exactly how I felt.

[Tin Foil Hat]

And me. I got out of a private company with all the travel and nonsense and back into NHS computing. No guarantees of safety here either I can tell you that before anyone moans about cushy public sector work.

TFH

[The Masked Tulip]

that is exactly how I felt.

I worked for LogicaCMG once and it made me ill - never had so much stress in my life and I ended up in A&E. I will never work for an IT Consultancy again.

In fact, I doubt I will work in IT again as it is boring, stressful, constant retraining, one minute you are asked rocket science stuff and the next you are asked how to send an email by a numpty, the industry has been taken over by vast numbers of non-IT literate IT Managers who can barely switch on their own laptops but who now control the industry pushing the real techies further down the ladder, and it is simply no life.

[Gone baby gone]

Interesting I have been contemplating a similar hypothesis.

The bubble in particular has been characterised by the explosion in IT contractors. People that formerly worked as salaried staff, freed themselves from their hosts and made themselves relatively wealthy whilst the good times rolled. There was an obvious and large discrepancy between permament staff and the contractor workforce (in terms of income). Now it seems that that contract work in the private sector is drying up, rates are falling and a few of my friends who are trying to find work can't get any at all. The sensible ones have saved enough cash to see them through for a while. The not so sensible have fantastic mortgages and in about a years time will be proper ******ed.

Once upon a time contractors were hired as much for their technical expertise as their 'disposability'. I remember wondering in 1996 if I was 'good enough' to go contracting. I needn't have worried!

[Peter Hun]

Check out the chart on this site for the number of IT jobs being advertised:

http://www.jobstats.co.uk/

We've now officially taken out the 2003 post Y2K, post dot com crash lows. What's interesting is that the current drop shows no signs of slowing, if anything it's accelerating. This fits with my anecdotal evidence of getting very few calls about jobs, and the number of geeks I know who are "resting".

This is bad - IT is (was?) one of our most profitable industries .

It is a cost to UK companies, not a profit centre. The biggest Uk software house is Autonomy; could you name another?

[Soul Reaver]

And me. I got out of a private company with all the travel and nonsense and back into NHS computing. No guarantees of safety here either I can tell you that before anyone moans about cushy public sector work.

TFH

I think most sectors will suffer during this recession with the UK suffering the most "because it is best placed to suffer"

[xux42]

I knew this would happen in 2007 that's one reason for getting out & retraining. The other reason is that most of the people I met whilst in IT were tw4ts. It seems to go with the turf.

surely people are not surprised by this ?

salaries are lower now than they were in 2001/2002.

It IS tough out there. BUT.

The huge influx of spreadsheet jockies and Asian .net graduates has not created a 'real' programmer surplus.

The shortage of genuine experts with hard core skills and the experience needed to apply a steady hand and not turn a drama into a crisis still with us and always will be.

Also, I just learned from a sysprog that IBM have been quietly porting DB2 modules to C because most of the original Assembler programmers are very old or dead

All this doesn't stop ill informed managers thinking they have the upper hand mind.

But when the chips are down they don't.

Nothing a frellance like more than the sound of rising panic in a manager's voice when apps go tits up and Bangalore says 'Que?'.

K'ching.

[ralphmalph]

It is a cost to UK companies, not a profit centre. The biggest Uk software house is Autonomy; could you name another?

Sage is a FTSE 100 company

Misys is a FTSE 250

Sophos.

Etc, etc, etc.

[ralphmalph]

Peter,

Name me a global French, Italian or Spanish software company?

Edited May 8, 2009 by ralphmalph

[LondonToManchester]

Is that website saying storage consultants charge 33k a day?

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

I worked for LogicaCMG once and it made me ill - never had so much stress in my life and I ended up in A&E. I will never work for an IT Consultancy again.

yes, very stressful area to be in.

In fact, I doubt I will work in IT again as it is boring, stressful, constant retraining, one minute you are asked rocket science stuff and the next you are asked how to send an email by a numpty, the industry has been taken over by vast numbers of non-IT literate IT Managers who can barely switch on their own laptops but who now control the industry pushing the real techies further down the ladder, and it is simply no life.

absolutely spot-on & a MASSIVE bugbear with me that one. I rarely met a manager with ANY technical experience. :angry: I used to attend 'technical' meetings & the majority of managers were bean counters or business degrees, great management skills perhaps BUT no technical knowledge at all. They used to hate me being in those meetings as I used to regularly p1ss on their design bonfires, when I told them that their design's & ideas would not work. tw4ts!

I was a technical IT manager. Worked my way up from the bottom, did a range of jobs including some telecoms, but I always kept my technical skills up. Even now I am very hands on whilst I am re-training, ensuring I play with the latest MS OS's using VMWare (I wish I had come the Unix route though, but everything will be MicroShaft soon anyway They will eveuntually get all the backbones away from Unix/Linux & Bind, Apache etc).

Obviously my networking skills wil take a hit due to the lack of big kit for me to play with.

btw - I don't even think I have EVER used an angry smilie in all the years that I have posted on this or any other site.

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

It IS tough out there. BUT.

The huge influx of spreadsheet jockies and Asian .net graduates has not created a 'real' programmer surplus.

The shortage of genuine experts with hard core skills and the experience needed to apply a steady hand and not turn a drama into a crisis still with us and always will be.

Also, I just learned from a sysprog that IBM have been quietly porting DB2 modules to C because most of the original Assembler programmers are very old or dead

All this doesn't stop ill informed managers thinking they have the upper hand mind.

But when the chips are down they don't.

Nothing a frellance like more than the sound of rising panic in a manager's voice when apps go tits up and Bangalore says 'Que?'.

K'ching.

I was/am networking/security/telecoms/helpdesk side, but I share & understand your humour.

edited - speaking as a previous IT manager, I never once panicked (I kid you not). The reason is that where ever I joined I either used to get the proper stuff/kit/disaster recovery in & tested OR I used to tell my line management & FD's that I would not guarantee anything.

They used to hate me, without a doubt. I especially used to clash with FD's & generally director's of any nature. The only ones that I ever got on with was Engineering/Manufacturing directors, & that when I worked for VIA Systems in 2000.

Edited May 8, 2009 by grumpy-old-man-returns