Scotland To Scrap Council Tax

[Dubbya]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7594469.stm

Any idea how they will find out peoples incomes?

- from their mortgage application forms of course ("but, but.....")

(or divide their house "value" by 3.5, since the market in Scotland is clearly not overvalued

[dances with sheeple]

This is a red herring. The SNP need the support of the other 2 parties (Con & Lib dems) to get this through and neither are thrilled about it.

Salmond is introducing it so he say "I tried" as this was a manifesto pledge.

As noted earlier, this would be impossible to enforce in a great many situations.

As is the present Council Tax, a fair chunk of which goes uncollected from renters and tenants who move every other year or so, and who share accomodation where dozens of names exist on the voters roll as previous tenants. Sometimes Council Tax books are issued with previous tenants names etc.

The authorities have been relying on collecting the bulk of the council tax from "homeowners" sitting where they can easily be hassled for non payment, in houses mortgaged in their name. As long as prices were soaring people just stumped up every month to avoid the legal grief. This won`t happen in a badly falling market. This most hated of taxes which keeps many an mp/msp tethered to the trough will be defaulted on more and more. The authorities know this and badly need a way to collect at source. It will be a disaster, but, as Robin Hood would have said, when the Sheriff is talking compromise he is weak, peaceful protest and non-payment will bring the pigs away from the trough. By the way, why should someone in a big house pay more Council Tax? they get to flush their toilet, access drinking water, and get the bins collected just like someone in a tiny flat. It is an opportunistic tax on the manufactured property boom nothing more. The days for this particular tax are numbered.

Edited September 3, 2008 by dances with sheeple

[TTID]

This would save me a packet.

Wish they'd bring it in in England.

[Optimuswolf]

Doesn't matter, any income you receive will be taxed. That's why its called income tax, doh!

No, income taken from a housing asset is exempt from income tax, as income from an ISA would be when you start withdrawing it.

One of the reasons to be an owneroccupier - it is very tax advantaged.

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

This is a red herring. The SNP need the support of the other 2 parties (Con & Lib dems) to get this through and neither are thrilled about it.

Salmond is introducing it so he say "I tried" as this was a manifesto pledge.

As noted earlier, this would be impossible to enforce in a great many situations.

That would be the Lib Dems who have LOCAL INCOME TAX in their MANIFESTO.

Edited September 3, 2008 by TaxAbuserOfTheWeek

[subsidiser]

What if you work in England and live in Scotland

I love the way these muppets come up with ideas which when a bit of very basic thought proves it will be very difficult to administer.

What if you own property in Scotland and work in England? Thats probably what this shyster is counting on - people who left zero-opportunity Scotland so they could earn more elsewhere.

[Gone baby gone]

That would be the Lib Dems who have LOCAL INCOME TAX in their MANIFESTO.

Sorry, meant Labour... not used to 4 'proper' parties

[bagsos]

What if you own property in Scotland and work in England? Thats probably what this shyster is counting on - people who left zero-opportunity Scotland so they could earn more elsewhere.

Then you will fill in a tax return showing your income and when the tax auditors come knocking on your door you have to prove your income (P60, bank statements etc.)

They have this is the US and it works very well there; where I used to live there were local income taxes levied by the state and the town as well as a seperate one from the sherriffs office. However they have very limited central govt support for local govt and their federal income tax does not hit 40% until you are earning a fortune, which makes it a bit easier to swallow.

[nohpc]

Several points about income tax vs council tax

1) Empty homes will be liable for zero tax whereas currently you must pay council tax

2) Mega rich people who live off income from investments and do not receive a pay cheque will pay nothing - the finance minister said it is not worth chasing these people for money

3) I will have to pay significantly more money as will any top rate earners (more than 40000)

4) If you live in Scotland and work in England/Wales/Northern Ireland or anywhere else you will not have to pay tax?

5) Pensioners in huge houses will pay next to nothing

6) Families with good incomes struggling with their mortgages will be squeezed

7) How will they tax holiday homes and second homes?

Fair enough the council tax is unfair. What annoys me is that they try to argue that the income tax is fair. It is equally unfair just in different ways.

[nohpc]

It should be charged to the owners of the property, not the people that live in it.

Anyway you can get around that just let two pay the council tax and the otehr two dont, just dont go on the local register simple.

it wouldn't matter. If the owner had to pay for tennants it would just be added on to the rent. Tennants wouldn't lose out because they would be paying the same overall. Why should the landlord pay for the tennants waste collection, kids schooling etc etc.

[delboypass]

I know, why dont they introduce

HOUSE VALUE TAX!!!!

Its the most freaking logical scheme...

and would stop people pumping up how much their house is worth...

It would also simplistically replace council tax as would probably be the same (council tax being based on house value)

If you had to pay a percentage of your house value..that would stop these idiots taking out 7x salary morgages overnight...!!

Like in sweden where if you are caught speeding, you pay a percentage of your salary, not some fixed sum that means nothing to the mega rich and bankrupts the poor..

it should be based on peoples ability to pay and for the asset they are residing in...

So for instance...say you are very frugal and live with 50 other people in some junkie hell hole but earn 100k, you would have to pay £3000 for that pleasure...

completely bullsheete and i would do everything possible to not pay including giving up work.

[MEtallic]

Bloody stupid idea....I share a house (in England) and pay £475/annum (50%) for minimal services....at 3% of taxable income, I'd get to pay £660 for minimal services....why??

This is not the time to be raising taxes, its the time to reduce them to help keep things afloat...the public sector is far too bloated as it is.

[Optimuswolf]

it wouldn't matter. If the owner had to pay for tennants it would just be added on to the rent. Tennants wouldn't lose out because they would be paying the same overall. Why should the landlord pay for the tennants waste collection, kids schooling etc etc.

I think the system of local taxation that suits best depends on a number of questions

a) should people be taxed on ability to pay, use of services or a combination

if ability to pay, what is classified in the 'means' test

c) If services, which services.

d) If a combination, how much and what should be included in each.

I don't mind the current system to be honest. it means that people are taxed to some extent on their use of services (local differences are taken into account), but also on ability to pay (size of home/land and means testing for poor families).

That said I wouldn't mind some cost transferring over to the use of services, as these price mechanisms help us to change our behaviour to reflect the social cost - reducing rubbish by charging for it for instance.

[quinnbear]

I don't mind the current system to be honest. it means that people are taxed to some extent on their use of services (local differences are taken into account), but also on ability to pay (size of home/land and means testing for poor families).

That said I wouldn't mind some cost transferring over to the use of services, as these price mechanisms help us to change our behaviour to reflect the social cost - reducing rubbish by charging for it for instance.

Sometimes when I am arguing about council tax and I'm feeling especially contrary I suggest that the poor people ought to pay more since they make more use of the services. Maybe we could have an extension of the idea of "pay as you throw" litter costs, to have a running tariff for the number of times you called the police (or received services from them ) , how many kids you have in school, use of social services, amount of rubbish generated and so on.

I live on a council estate and I am sure other residents get a greater proportion of my council taxes spent on them!

Couldn't we just have some kind of fix rates based on the value of the property?

Q

[Optimuswolf]

Sometimes when I am arguing about council tax and I'm feeling especially contrary I suggest that the poor people ought to pay more since they make more use of the services. Maybe we could have an extension of the idea of "pay as you throw" litter costs, to have a running tariff for the number of times you called the police (or received services from them ) , how many kids you have in school, use of social services, amount of rubbish generated and so on.

I live on a council estate and I am sure other residents get a greater proportion of my council taxes spent on them!

Couldn't we just have some kind of fix rates based on the value of the property?

Q

Yes, quite and a key thing I learnt to remember from some tax economists I know is that not every part of the tax system need do the same thing. Local taxation need not tax the rich more if you achieve that through income tax, capital gains or caviar duty.

If you want to have effects on behaviour you need to have price mechanisms in addition to social, psychological mechanisms. Landfills are becoming expensive - then make sure people pay for their rubbish based on how much they throw out (the economics bit), and try to psychologically or sociologically influence them through advertising, informing them of how good their neighbours are etc.

[Mr C]

Well I think its a good idea, well done SNP. We all use the services, we all drink the water, have our turds processed, waste collected etc etc etc, we should all pay if we earn, not just people who own a house. Its a far fairer system. An older person on a pension waiting to die will pay less than someone fighting fit and working even if they live in identical houses. Why should council tax be linked to housing? what are the arguments for it? it makes no sense at all.

The real problem I have with this is the gross waste in the public sector that my taxes keep funding, all the non-jobs, jobs for the boys, and bureaucracy fuelled job creation, I dont vote for all these people to be dependant of me.

[impatient_mug]

I remember the Lib Dems spouting this crap a few years back. Looks like they're actually going to try and impliment it in Scotland. For the first time in a long time I'm glad I still live in England. My bill would skyrocket given there's 2 earners in my place. Ability to pay? My personal bill alone would be more than the current entire bill. How am I supposed to pay that?? Retarded scheme.

[qwe3333]

Ah that failed Lib dem idea.

Back when we graduated, i was sharing with 3 others our household pretax income was 100K+. Us "rich" twenty somethings would have been hit with a combined total of 4,000 pounds while we tried to pay uni debt, rent and save a deposit. But Mr. retiree with paid off house worth 400K would pay 0 pounds, while using plenty of local services.

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

I know, why dont they introduce

HOUSE VALUE TAX!!!!

Its the most freaking logical scheme...

and would stop people pumping up how much their house is worth...

It would also simplistically replace council tax as would probably be the same (council tax being based on house value)

If you had to pay a percentage of your house value..that would stop these idiots taking out 7x salary morgages overnight...!!

Like in sweden where if you are caught speeding, you pay a percentage of your salary, not some fixed sum that means nothing to the mega rich and bankrupts the poor..

it should be based on peoples ability to pay and for the asset they are residing in...

So for instance...say you are very frugal and live with 50 other people in some junkie hell hole but earn 100k, you would have to pay £3000 for that pleasure...

completely bullsheete and i would do everything possible to not pay including giving up work.

You're thinking of a LAND VALUE TAX, which is ultimately the only fair way to tax people.

[betterToDo]

Edit: This is my first post with Google Chrome, anyone else tried it?

yeh its delicious I think

As for the tax, well.. yeh. Reminds me of income assessed loans at university. I'll never forget sitting in the uni finance office, being told by the head of the "emergency fund" department that the only reason I had less financial help than others was that most of the other parents were lying on their forms whereas mine hadn't. I'll always hold a great deal of respect for my dad because he is so painfully honest.

Any tax is inevitably unfair, it requires either total (intrusive) measurement, or vague manipulable classification systems, which as soon as they are defined, are immediately avoided. Tax on blue hats, suddenly everyones wearing red.

[Flatdog]

Would it not be more equitable to pass the responsibility for collection of local/council tax over to utility companies?

Homeowners would be further incentivised to improve energy efficiency, occupiers would pay tax based on consumption of energy and water and consequently be inclined to use less.

[Optimuswolf]

Would it not be more equitable to pass the responsibility for collection of local/council tax over to utility companies?

Homeowners would be further incentivised to improve energy efficiency, occupiers would pay tax based on consumption of energy and water and consequently be inclined to use less.

I suppose you have a big coordination problem as there are so many services provided. Utilities, rubbish collection, road sweeping(!) public parks, social care et al et al. You'd have to pay lots of little bills or someone (a council perchance) would have to decide what you paid overall.

As I said, I would like the balance to go towards pay as you use, but it isn't perfect by any means.

[qwe3333]

Well I think its a good idea, well done SNP. We all use the services, we all drink the water, have our turds processed, waste collected etc etc etc, we should all pay if we earn, not just people who own a house. Its a far fairer system. An older person on a pension waiting to die will pay less than someone fighting fit and working even if they live in identical houses. Why should council tax be linked to housing? what are the arguments for it? it makes no sense at all.

because house size is a better indicator of wealth. A pensioner "earning" 15K but no mortgage can pay more than graduates house sharing. Secondly it creates an incentive to stop the old from bed blocking 4/5 bedroom places when they have no need for them.

[yawnIHateSundays]

That said I wouldn't mind some cost transferring over to the use of services, as these price mechanisms help us to change our behaviour to reflect the social cost - reducing rubbish by charging for it for instance.

That would be the best system - pay for what you actually use. Privatise the whole local services, then we just have private schools, private healthcare, private rubbish collection etc.

[ken_ichikawa]

We should just put a Coin op mechanism on everything the councils provide,

thus parks will have coin op turnstiles ,

Libraries will be like a giant vending machine.

Rubbish collection will be like in Cornwall where you have to buy special coloured bags from the council.