Work For Dole

[Yoss]

Your allowed up to 7K in savings before you can claim (didn't know that at the time), also worth noting if un-employed for 6 months and your mortgage is under 95K you (well you should unless you are "self employed") qualify for benefit to pay mortgage interest, thus allowing you to keep your home.

I personally have never received a single penny in benefit as being a company director, I was self employeed, even after having my IR35 effectively back dated to 1998 and paying over £400K in taxes.

Many will think me stoopid (and hands up I was) earning that kinda dosh and not saving for a rainny day (Yeah I rode the DOT com boom).

You're a muppet if you can't afford a few months out of work...well I did (was only 27 and single at the time), only went to claim (after 6 months of living off what I had left) when things got really tough.

I had not over extended myself debt wise (Sub 80K total debt), the main errosion of my savings was the effective back dateing IR35 and associated fines (CRAP ACCOUNTANT TBH)

But beware peeps that are paying IR35, you're in for a nasty sting should your work fall foul of the credit crunch and hope you have saved long and hard for a rainny day, because if you haven't you will get nailed.

[doahh]

If it is work then they should pay minimum wage, court cases on legal aid anyone?

[Injin]

Not so. Under these proposals you can chose to work and have an income or not work and have no income. That's freedom, not slavery. Having to play football for Man U for £160k/week when your mum wants you to sign for Madrid. Now that's slavery.

Nope.

You can't (for instance) go and work some spare land or build yourself a house and farm. If you do work you have to pay forelock tugging money to your local council overlord. If you want a house you have to do the same.

I would support the change if it was also accompanied by freedom in other areas, but it simply won't be.

It's a 200 year retrograde step socially and philosophically and won't work economically either.

[Yoss]

Here's a crazy idea, what about a return to mass-manufactering, creating products and items of export worth to other countries (a la china). NOT invisible service sector crap.

Better yet, why not sell them all endowerment mortgages/Pensions/BTL based off the last 3 years growth figures...And were already geared up for it.

UK PLC has get rich uber quick guru's comming out its ears, hell even Kirsty could learn madarin and inflate thier housing bubble via being a property gurn... (Well I am only a presenter in a down turn line).

Take the commission and run fer the hills, although I'd expect the average chinease person to be more clued up... but then I expected the avg Brit to be more clue up also.

Thats it I am off to start a bank

[ZeroSumGame]

I personally have never received a single penny in benefit as being a company director, I was self employeed, even after having my IR35 effectively back dated to 1998 and paying over £400K in taxes.

.......................................

But beware peeps that are paying IR35, you're in for a nasty sting should your work fall foul of the credit crunch and hope you have saved long and hard for a rainny day, because if you haven't you will get nailed.

Can't complain about the boom years then. I'd say you earned circa £800K in that period. So whatever you spent it on it must have been a lark at the time !

IR35 ? The gubbimint and HMRC have just too many resources to fire at the small guy. Not worth the fight IMHO.

[DementedTuna]

hahahaha... they don't seriously expect chavs to work do they?

I bet the people making these proposals have never even met a chav.

Imagine if it was a litter-picking job...

*Chav saunters up to his minder at 9am*

"I hear you got jobs like?"

"Here's a binbag and a grabby stick, go tidy up the street"

"Oi ain't picking up no littaz mate, is well skank!"

"Well, you'll have to if you want your dole this week."

"Yea whatever nobface, see ya at 5"

*Chav busts into a few cars with the grabby stick, nicks a bit of gear*

*Chav takes a couple of full binbags out of someone's wheelie bin*

"Here y'are nobface, I picked all this up wiv me hands, nao gimme ma dole or I'll tw@t ya one."

And then 3 days later the chav fakes an illness that he got from picking up all the litter.

Logistical f***ing nightmare... you'd have to make sure that the chav minders outnumbered the chavs to start with, or nothing would get done... and by that point it's simply better to get the minders to do the jobs that the chavs would have done.

Edited July 18, 2008 by DementedTuna

[Guest happy?]

Saw this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7514513.stm

,,,,,Keeping wage inflation down is obviously critical to controlling inflation...

Why? It never worked in the 70's or 80's why should it work now?

[Yoss]

Can't complain about the boom years then. I'd say you earned circa £800K in that period. So whatever you spent it on it must have been a lark at the time !

IR35 ? The gubbimint and HMRC have just too many resources to fire at the small guy. Not worth the fight IMHO.

Hehe That cheered me up! most of it went on a coke snorting, drop dead, complete and utter nut job of a woman (Paddles knows where I am coming from)

Everyone should at least try one really nutty one!

[pppeter]

Nope.

You can't (for instance) go and work some spare land or build yourself a house and farm. If you do work you have to pay forelock tugging money to your local council overlord. If you want a house you have to do the same.

I would support the change if it was also accompanied by freedom in other areas, but it simply won't be.

It's a 200 year retrograde step socially and philosophically and won't work economically either.

Yep.

I appreciate the stuff about not being able to live off the land so effectively being forced to be part of the system but this new proposal doesn't make that any better or worse. Anyway, if you're too lazy to go out and collect litter then you're too lazy to plough a field.

Assuming people don't lie on their CV, a programme like this would allow employers to distinguish between the work-shy and the industrious when they recieve job applications. I never lied on mine and I'd be shocked to find that such a practice goes on

Just thinking about the options for living off the land freely...does a church have to pay council tax? Establish "Church of HPC", STR fund buys some farmland, ba-da-bing.

[pppeter]

"Here's a binbag and a grabby stick, go tidy up the street"

"Oi ain't picking up no littaz mate, is well skank!"

It's worse than that. In Croydon (Chaviest Town in England 2008) they've actively asserted their right to make the place a dump.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7513416.stm

[Injin]

Yep.

I appreciate the stuff about not being able to live off the land so effectively being forced to be part of the system but this new proposal doesn't make that any better or worse. Anyway, if you're too lazy to go out and collect litter then you're too lazy to plough a field.

Assuming people don't lie on their CV, a programme like this would allow employers to distinguish between the work-shy and the industrious when they recieve job applications. I never lied on mine and I'd be shocked to find that such a practice goes on

Just thinking about the options for living off the land freely...does a church have to pay council tax? Establish "Church of HPC", STR fund buys some farmland, ba-da-bing.

If you cut the money AND allow freedom, there is no choice but TO plow a field or starve. Fair enough.

If you threaten to cut the money but DON'T allow freedom you have created slaves. Completely ******ing EVIL.

[pppeter]

If you cut the money AND allow freedom, there is no choice but TO plow a field or starve. Fair enough.

If you threaten to cut the money but DON'T allow freedom you have created slaves. Completely ******ing EVIL.

Sounds like you're of the opinion that dole scrounging is justifiable on the grounds that the dole is compensation for the adverse consequences of upholding property rights whereas on that same thread you stated "what's wrong with not doing much work? As long as they don't get paid it should balance up just fine," which is my argument here.

[delboypass]

I agree, however haven't found any particular skill I can sell, and as for the job centre, in reality I quickly wrote it off, was just pointing out its failings. Blagging your way into jobs isnt so easy, low end jobs require you to be Polish and between the age of 20 and 30 these days. The technical background I had is quickly dismissed by prospective employees on account of my age and length of time out of work. Ultimately though I will work for myself in some capacity or other.

What a bloody drone Steve..

Get off your freaking lazy ****, get out there and get s job.

There are literally millions of options in this country.

This is what Britian is becoming...I deserve more..no go train in a specific skill and then get a job in that market..Anyone with intelligence will look to see market salarys and demand and obviously train in that area..

If you have left it til your 30 to stop and think what should i be doing with my life what do you expect...?? a fricken hand out ??

Unfortunately Ive ben training for my job since i started primary school always in full time education working for best result through to full time employment working hard to please and climb corporate ladder.

These days people want to be handed a million pounds for nothing..

unfortunately it doesnt work like that except for a select few..

[miko]

So what's all this stuff you hear about people living on the dole and "doing alright" out of it. Is that all rubbish? I have only been on the dole for a few weeks after leaving school in 1976. Too hot to look for a job. I got £7.70 per week.

People living in council houses with kids who are permanently on the dole do alright out of it. The people who pay for the system then fall out of work dont .If you have a mortgage and/or other debt there is very little help. The dole was meant to be a safety net but got so abused by the permanently lazy that they had to cut something . So they have cut from the deserving who pay and keep paying for the ones that don't.

Edited July 18, 2008 by miko

[delboypass]

hahahaha... they don't seriously expect chavs to work do they?

I bet the people making these proposals have never even met a chav.

Imagine if it was a litter-picking job...

*Chav saunters up to his minder at 9am*

"I hear you got jobs like?"

"Here's a binbag and a grabby stick, go tidy up the street"

"Oi ain't picking up no littaz mate, is well skank!"

"Well, you'll have to if you want your dole this week."

"Yea whatever nobface, see ya at 5"

*Chav busts into a few cars with the grabby stick, nicks a bit of gear*

*Chav takes a couple of full binbags out of someone's wheelie bin*

"Here y'are nobface, I picked all this up wiv me hands, nao gimme ma dole or I'll tw@t ya one."

And then 3 days later the chav fakes an illness that he got from picking up all the litter.

Logistical f***ing nightmare... you'd have to make sure that the chav minders outnumbered the chavs to start with, or nothing would get done... and by that point it's simply better to get the minders to do the jobs that the chavs would have done.

BullSheete...

if they threaten the inspector, they never get benefits for rest of their life...

all you need thne is a senior inspector that roams looking at the smaller groups...

like a casino where you have dealers (chavs), pit boss (minder) floor boss ( senior minder) and pie in the sky waatching them all (CCTV)

[Injin]

Sounds like you're of the opinion that dole scrounging is justifiable on the grounds that the dole is compensation for the adverse consequences of upholding property rights whereas on that same thread you stated "what's wrong with not doing much work? As long as they don't get paid it should balance up just fine," which is my argument here.

The option to go solo is removed by force.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to be poor and living in a shack. However this option is completely removed by the same people who now want people to work for (practically) free. If you do go and live in a shack and grow food in your backyard and never leave, sooner or later someone will roll up and demand payment for "council services." Refuse to pay and you'll be assaulted and caged.

Don't pay the dolees, I agree completely.

And also free them.

Otherwise it's the worst of both worlds.

[delboypass]

The option to go solo is removed by force.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to be poor and living in a shack. However this option is completely removed by the same people who now want people to work for (practically) free. If you do go and live in a shack and grow food in your backyard and never leave, sooner or later someone will roll up and demand payment for "council services." Refuse to pay and you'll be assaulted and caged.

Don't pay the dolees, I agree completely.

And also free them.

Otherwise it's the worst of both worlds.

What do you do for a living Injin...you sound like a bloody tree hugger....

[steve99]

What a bloody drone Steve..

Get off your freaking lazy ****, get out there and get s job.

There are literally millions of options in this country.

This is what Britian is becoming...I deserve more..no go train in a specific skill and then get a job in that market..Anyone with intelligence will look to see market salarys and demand and obviously train in that area..

If you have left it til your 30 to stop and think what should i be doing with my life what do you expect...?? a fricken hand out ??

Unfortunately Ive ben training for my job since i started primary school always in full time education working for best result through to full time employment working hard to please and climb corporate ladder.

These days people want to be handed a million pounds for nothing..

unfortunately it doesnt work like that except for a select few..

What would you know?? fukwit!, Ive been working, training and studying almost non stop since I was 17, Ive done an apprenticeship (electrical control systems) in the armed forces (which was of fk all use during a recession when they made us redundant) Ive got a HND in electronics, which as you may know, has no use these days, Ive got similar quals in IT (a two year full time college course that I did privately in 9 months working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week) , Did Microsoft MCSE twice in 5 years as per their requirements, An out of date cisco CCNA, CCNP (thats 5 exams) thats now lapsed, and several other lesser known certs that have fallen out of favour (Novel CNE) over the last few years. As I am now just turned 50, the market for someone like myself in the IT industry is now a closed book. This is the way it is, not a 'poor me moment' just a difficult situation to deal with. To train again from scratch for a career that depends on medium/large employers would be an exercise in futility. Ultimately I will work for my self, however as stated not found the right idea yet. There has become very little tolerance with employers in the last few years re who they will employ, in fact in many industries, they can and do have the entire world to choose from, if they want a pink transvestite with a Doctorate in chimpanzee physcology to man their help desk, then they will hold their breath till they get it. And at what stage did I ask for a handout you pr*ck! I was just making a few points about a useless system that doesn't solve the problems re employment that it pretends to do. I just said I would work for the dole if it was avaliable.

[crash2006]

If i had a choice to opt out and farm my own land u would however i can't laws stop me, iam forced to do other things against my will. Work for the dole is crazy, might sound good but there are problems like in the US were companies have taken advantage.

[Ulfar]

If i had a choice to opt out and farm my own land u would however i can't laws stop me, iam forced to do other things against my will. Work for the dole is crazy, might sound good but there are problems like in the US were companies have taken advantage.

Therein lies the problem.

There is also the issue of the minimum wage, this will be completely negated if companies can be assigned slaves to work for dole money.

I can't wait for the government to implement this as it will be the quickest way to trigger civil unrest.

[the serf]

This was the Freud Review, knocked up in 12 weeks by investment banker David Freud, at the behest of US companies with an eye on profiteering from our welfare budget with some useless reforms that in effect just embezzle public money, as with so many New Labour 'policies'.

I also see the BBC's welfare demonising propaganda initiative includes repeating Freud's man in pub notion that 2/3rds of Incapacity Benefit claims are fraudulent when recent DWP figures for IB fraud are around 0.1%, second only to pensions.

[crash2006]

This was the Freud Review, knocked up in 12 weeks by investment banker David Freud, at the behest of US companies with an eye on profiteering from our welfare budget with some useless reforms that in effect just embezzle public money, as with so many New Labour 'policies'.

I also see the BBC's welfare demonising propaganda initiative includes repeating Freud's man in pub notion that 2/3rds of Incapacity Benefit claims are fraudulent when recent DWP figures for IB fraud are around 0.1%, second only to pensions.

lots of people think hey what a great idea, question you need to ask yourself will it reduce your tax? i can say no. it wil bring down wages in some sectors.

Edited July 18, 2008 by crash2006

[Rain'ard]

It won't last long. At an unemployed over 50 self help group I belong to, a Jobcenter plus guest speaker came to tell us about 50+new deal scheme. They promised miricles. He gave me a phone number which I rang. There was answerphone reponse, which said the scheme did no longer exist. This was about after a month. I wasn't too heart broken as I aleady had a part time job and was getting by. I asked at the job centre what was going on and even those who worked there didn't know. I later found out that the rescources allocated to 50 + New Deal had now been re-directed at the under 25s. I hope they won't be wasteing their time rimging just to find the rescourses are re-directed to the 26 - 49s.

[pppeter]

The option to go solo is removed by force.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to be poor and living in a shack. However this option is completely removed by the same people who now want people to work for (practically) free. If you do go and live in a shack and grow food in your backyard and never leave, sooner or later someone will roll up and demand payment for "council services." Refuse to pay and you'll be assaulted and caged.

Don't pay the dolees, I agree completely.

And also free them.

Otherwise it's the worst of both worlds.

What sort of freedom are you talking about here? There has to be some restriction on what we can do on land, firstly because all land is owned and secondly because one person's freedom impacts on another's. I'd be mightily peed off if I went to the park for a kickabout only to find that someone had opted out of the system and planted a vegetable patch there. Similarly, I'd be just as annoyed at paying the income I work so hard for to subsidise doleys as I would be if the garden I worked so hard for was taken over by someone to build a shack. If my small piece of land is protected then why should a large landowner not be protected similarly? If you include them then you're talking about the whole country. Perhaps if unproductive fertile land were under threat of being taken over by the unemployed then more of it would be farmed. But suppose a large landowner wants a nature reserve on their land. Should someone have the right to turn it into their own farmland just because they'd rather grow their own food than take the income from maintaining a nature reserve and turn it into food at a market?

[youthoftoday]

I've thought of a couple of things that people could do to earn their benefits.

They could be put on giant hamster wheels and generate electricity thus saving the world's rapidly depleting natural resources. Wheels could be installed in their homes to make it easier for them or they could be pedi-cab (i.e. bicycle rickshaw) drivers, giving free lifts to commuters. This would help with reducing our oil dependence.