No More Mortgages For Timber Frame Buildings

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

There is something very fishy about this. Why pick on timber?

Yes, I also find this very odd. Timber frames can last hundreds of years, so I don't see why this is worse than a bad brick and mortar build.

Also in other countries (where they have earthquakes) timber is superior.

[OnlyMe]

How silly, timber is an excellent product if used correctly and will out last modern brick built houses. Nationwide obviously think the housing market is going to crash and they see timber frame houses as more likely to lose more money.

The emphasis must be on can outlast modern brick built houses. However, the saving is in the erection time and the volume of material used - yes it can deal with the stresses and environment, but a few small problems will degenerate those stressed components far more quickly. Just as a traditional plaster wall can be patched and filled for decades, starting damaging stud partition and the whole lot needs to be replaced sooner rather than later.

On your second point, yes if they are getting out of timer frame/brick clad they are in a roundabout way getting out of a lot of newbuild on the sly by using the timber frame bit as an excuse. It would to go down well if they issued a blanket ban on newbuild say, but this would do the trick for a lot of it.

[5lab]

i grew up in a (then newbuild, relitively upmarket) timber framed mock-tudor house. its about 30 years old now and none of the (very similar) houses on the street have any issues. They don't feel solid inside cos all the interior walls are plasterboard (sound hollow when you knock one) but seemed structurally ok.

[eejit]

Wow, I just sat down with the morning coffee, trying deperately to focus and...

Yes my source is my mate, Mrs Perrin; It wasn't about scandinavian timber buildings, but about timber framed buildings; I believe a lot of selfbuilders use timber frames in their construction.

Therefore my interpretation of this is that there could be problems for selfbuilders if more mortgage lenders follow suite. I see this as scaremongering in the same way as people post that house prices are going to crash, or the price of cornflakes is going to hit $200 by the summer.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what it is you're disagreeing with me about? How have I touched such a raw nerve with my post?

I have no hard facts, but i would estimate that 90% of buildings built in Scotland in the past 30 years are timber framed. we envy your southern breeze blocks. The wooden frame means that a house can be built in about 2 weeks. They even build flats with timber frame, which gives a more authentic rabbit hutch experience. (it is also good for the developer when they cant afford to complete - they burn it down: http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstori...d-on.4119692.jp )

If your statement is true, that is a lot of buildings that are now un-mortgageable.

Edited June 17, 2008 by eejit

[billy-g]

Eejit, you do know it's timber frame goes up, then the bricks go up around it, don't you? Reading that, with the breeze block comment, it sounds like your a little confused.

See here for an explanation:

http://www.timberdevelopments.com/benefits.htm

[Tiger Woods?]

Er...do you live on one...we do...renting only though.

Believe me, they are total garbage. Break lines all over the flat, and it's less than 3 years old. The build quality of the timber framed builds (with a layer of bricks on the outside to fool the fools) is simply dreadful, the like the Polish and the like love to build for the UK.

One shouldn't confuse the quality of timber houses (or anything else) in this country and the rest of the world. In Australia and NZ timber houses are very common, well built, and generally very desirable. The British are given sh!t because they are willing to accept sh!t. Rip off Britain exists because the population is complicit in it. Very depressing really.

[eejit]

Eejit, you do know it's timber frame goes up, then the bricks go up around it, don't you? Reading that, with the breeze block comment, it sounds like your a little confused.

See here for an explanation:

http://www.timberdevelopments.com/benefits.htm

as opposed to building with breeze blocks and then putting proper bricks up around it? is that what you mean? see here for an explanation

http://www.imiweb.org/masonrydetails/01_01.htm

actually what happens is that they use the cheapest brick and cheapest brickie, then cover it with pebble dash to hide the poor workmanship and materials.

[billy-g]

as opposed to building with breeze blocks and then putting proper bricks up around it? is that what you mean? see here for an explanation

http://www.imiweb.org/masonrydetails/01_01.htm

actually what happens is that they use the cheapest brick and cheapest brickie, then cover it with pebble dash to hide the poor workmanship and materials.

Ah, the old Persimmon trick? Ever noticed that their estates, the brick seems to age really quickly?

There are good builders out there. I'd, IMHO, not class them as one though.

[renterbob]

More utter tosh. Ever heard of settlement? Thats what you have with ANY new property when it's built. Hairline cracks on the plastering inside as the structure beds into itself.

It used to happen to the internal renderings on the houses my great grandfather built over a hundred years ago (out of sandstone) and they are all still standing, with no 'HUGE' repair bills, and no whooooaaa!!! - whatever that is.

Blumming heck...you actually believe that in reality? Must be a windup! No...!

Whoooaaaa!!!!

Gemme out of 'ere

If my car developed some hairline fractures along the brakes......do you think I'd drive it?

Stop your drivel......

[muggle]

I cannot see a problem with timber framed houses myself (if done properly) - we have been building them for years...

[renterbob]

I cannot see a problem with timber framed houses myself (if done properly) - we have been building them for years...

Funny, that doesn't look like any newbuild I've seen.

Polish built newbuild over a old English built well maintained cottage...mmm...let me think which one I prefer.....

[billy-g]

Blumming heck...you actually believe that in reality? Must be a windup! No...!

Whoooaaaa!!!!

Gemme out of 'ere

If my car developed some hairline fractures along the brakes......do you think I'd drive it?

Stop your drivel......

Really? Ask a builder or an architect about settlement. They'll tell you the same.

Actually, don't. Just keep making comments on what you obviously know sod all about.

Whooooaaaaaa!!! No....!

Etc

[renterbob]

Really? Ask a builder or an architect about settlement. They'll tell you the same.

Actually, don't. Just keep making comments on what you obviously know sod all about.

Whooooaaaaaa!!! No....!

Etc

Er....no.

In the real world, houses that are built correctly do not show huge cracks here and there.....you are incorrect, and to say anything else is simply misleading.

Ahh...now I know....you've been to Phil and Kirsties 'how to build a house' 2 day intensive course.

Now I understand

Geesh....and you really believe this.....er...are you a Persimmon former exec by any chance...Wimpy.....Barrat?

I think so.

EDIT: When my car dealer tells me the huge whole in my oil tank is normal, I'll let you know.

Edited June 17, 2008 by renterbob

[Austin Allegro]

Er....no.

In the real world, houses that are built correctly do not show huge cracks here and there.....you are incorrect, and to say anything else is simply misleading.

Ahh...now I know....you've been to Phil and Kirsties 'how to build a house' 2 day intensive course.

Now I understand

Geesh....and you really believe this.....er...are you a Persimmon former exec by any chance...Wimpy.....Barrat?

I think so.

EDIT: When my car dealer tells me the huge whole in my oil tank is normal, I'll let you know.

I work in the construction industry for a professional body and this is a common concern raised by the public. It's perfectly normal to have hairline cracks in plaster in the first year of a building's life, in fact I always recommend to people that they keep back a bit of paint from the initial decorating so that these can be covered up.

[Clocker]

I remember a scare on these types of houses in the early eighties due to a couple of TV programmes......

World in Action 1983 Link

[ukdaasfan]

how much would the foundation, land and labour be to put up one of these dolls houses that ikea and stuff sell?

personally seeing as 20%ish(so lets assume around 30k) deposits are quite common now could that purchase all the above in people's opionion?

cos' if so, i reckon it won't be long before ikea and homebase are offering 30 year credit deals on 15k for you to get that dream home

My parents have a wooden frame house that was put up in the 50's and would hardly call it a ikea house. Never seen the problem.

Damn easy to fix. When they wanted to build an extension turned up on a lorry and one guy did the whole thing in a few weeks.

[Turnbull2000]

They're having a lot of trouble shifting these examples in Gateshead.

Those overpriced timber frame shoeboxes also happen to be located in one of the noisiest, dirtiest area of Gateshead. The noise levels were surveyed and published in the local paper recently. You have a very busy A-road, regular Metro trains, Gateshead Stadium, vehicle repair garages and much more pumelling your ears

[Mr C]

We have been building timber frame homes for 15 years now, and can confirm they are superior to your old fashioned cold damp brick built homes. With modern pressure treated timber, they will last hundreds of years. They are also vastly more efficient to heat, they cost less to erect, dont suffer from damp and are very very strong, can withstand 150mph winds with ease. The Norwegians have been ahead of the curve for many years.

We will all see their logic when heating costs begin to cripple those living cold old fashioned damp concrete boxes.

[Sheer Heart Attack]

We have been building timber frame homes for 15 years now, and can confirm they are superior to your old fashioned cold damp brick built homes. With modern pressure treated timber, they will last hundreds of years. They are also vastly more efficient to heat, they cost less to erect, dont suffer from damp and are very very strong, can withstand 150mph winds with ease. The Norwegians have been ahead of the curve for many years.

We will all see their logic when heating costs begin to cripple those living cold old fashioned damp concrete boxes.

This one has been standing since the 15th century and still looks quite solid.

[pig]

Hmm - could you please provide a link to Nationwide to confirm this ?

There was a couple of scare-stories a year or so with large scale timber-framed buildings burning down. Not completed buildings mind you - when the frame is going up the timber is at its most vulnerable and building sites in general are pretty dangerous places.

For a relatively informed discussion of this see the following:

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=3093934

But this does not seem to be likely to be the reason behind the claim of the pulling of Nationwide mortgages for timber-framed buildings, unless they've turned into headless chickens as well.

And no, cracks in new-build especially but existing houses too are common and usually harmless. Settlement and thermal expansion are normally the cause. The comparison with cracks in your vehicle I'm afraid is a tad uninformed but all too common with the general public. Timber walls will only sound hollow if they are not filled with mineral wool, which is standard practice.

There is also a bit of a battle going on between the masonry and timber-framed industries - the masonry side are in trouble because tightening regulations mean that it will start to become difficult to have a reasonable thickness of wall and still provide enough insulation.

[ReggiePerrin]

Hmm - could you please provide a link to Nationwide to confirm this ?

There was a couple of scare-stories a year or so with large scale timber-framed buildings burning down. Not completed buildings mind you - when the frame is going up the timber is at its most vulnerable and building sites in general are pretty dangerous places.

For a relatively informed discussion of this see the following:

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=3093934

But this does not seem to be likely to be the reason behind the claim of the pulling of Nationwide mortgages for timber-framed buildings, unless they've turned into headless chickens as well.

And no, cracks in new-build especially but existing houses too are common and usually harmless. Settlement and thermal expansion are normally the cause. The comparison with cracks in your vehicle I'm afraid is a tad uninformed but all too common with the general public. Timber walls will only sound hollow if they are not filled with mineral wool, which is standard practice.

There is also a bit of a battle going on between the masonry and timber-framed industries - the masonry side are in trouble because tightening regulations mean that it will start to become difficult to have a reasonable thickness of wall and still provide enough insulation.

No link, just information that a mortgage was refused on the grounds it was for a timber framed building, no mention was made about the quality of the construction, merely it's type. Here's a link to an article on timber frames and the ability to mortgage them.

I was thinking though, we've been through a period of lax lending when basically you could get a mortgage for anything. If lenders are now looking for any excuse not to give a mortgage then a lot of properties will shortly become unmortgagable, assuming they're not already.

Some examples

• Non-traditionally constructed buildings

• Flats above shops

• and my favourite; Price

I'm sure there must be many more.

With regards to only discussing certain topics because the contentious stuff may cause offense to people visiting this site for the first time... I really don't care, sorry! I come here to discuss housing related topics because there really isn't anywhere else to do this without some vested interest censoring the material, and I'm more than capable of finding the good stuff and ignoring the bad. I would be more put off as a first timer by the people who resort to personal insults and foul language, because, I asume, the poster is incapable of taking the time to think of a reasoned argument.

[Elizabeth]

Agreed. You could be forgiven for thinking that Thamesmead is suddenly seen as the new renaissance and that there's an urgent need to recreate it elsewhere in the country for it's ground breaking and inspiring style.

[orwellian]

[orwellian]

QUOTE

groundbreaking new concept to housing that involves providing space-saving

[/orwellian]

[/orwellian]

It's f**cking tiny.

[orwellian]

QUOTE

functional and high quality properties

[/orwellian]

utilitarian breeze block sh*tholes

[orwellian]

[orwellian]

QUOTE

BoKlok, roughly translated, means ’live smart' and its concept is based on customers’ real needs and wishes – a safe environment, roominess and access to green space

[/orwellian]

[/orwellian]

These are the slums of the future. Welcome to an environment frequented by drug dealers, joy riders and suicide.

Sorry about the bad posting Class response BS

Edited June 17, 2008 by Elizabeth

[Dames]

Most new builds these days use some form of timber construction before it gets bricked, and it's absolutely fine. Put it on a concrete raft of foundations and its as strong as hell before it even gets breeze or brick around it.

No offence, but can we stick to the real facts here? Posting ****** like that 'from a mate' then trying to scaremonger does the site's credibility no good at all.

Not quite the case about new builds uk wide .

Scotland use it big style , around 60% , where as in the rest of the UK , it probably only around 20% if that.

Most use block and brick/render/stone etc.

As a point of interest ,Redrow do/did some using a steel frame on a couple of sites I worked on about 3 yrs ago.

Dames

[dundee]

Not quite the case about new builds uk wide .

Scotland use it big style , around 60% , where as in the rest of the UK , it probably only around 20% if that.

Most use block and brick/render/stone etc.

As a point of interest ,Redrow do/did some using a steel frame on a couple of sites I worked on about 3 yrs ago.

Dames

Think your wrong on Scotland here in Dundee 95+ % are timber frame. builders like glendale, stuart milne, miller homes, all building large estates all timber frames, infact only non timber seen of late was 1 off self build.

[renterbob]

I work in the construction industry for a professional body and this is a common concern raised by the public. It's perfectly normal to have hairline cracks in plaster in the first year of a building's life, in fact I always recommend to people that they keep back a bit of paint from the initial decorating so that these can be covered up.

We are not referring to hairline cracks here on newbuilds, we are refferring to bloody great cracks in the ceilings and walls in EVERY newbuild.

I work in University but would never tell anyone that all things bad in Universitites are actually good, and don't really exist.

Newbuilds are bloody garbage and you know it.