Monday In The Markets Might Get Interesting -- Forget I R

[bpw]

Bpw,

More twisting of the truth I see. Israel would never have entered Lebanon in the first place if it wasn't for the kindap and murder of their troops. This is the culmination of six years of the same from Hizbollah, so who first violated the Oslo accord? The timing of Hizbollahs action is set by Tehran to deflect attention away from their non compliance with the IAEA by the way. Incidentally the terrorist supporting Iranian leader has previously been quoted as wanting to wipe Israel off the map.

As for the Sabra and Shatila massacres. They were carried out by the Maronite Christians who were settling their own internicine squabble with the shia. The Israeli army certainly turned a blind eye to this but did not carry it out though you are obviously keen to imply they did by omission.

Here's a wikipedia reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

I wonder how many column inches these two massacres get in the press compared to the 20,000 Muslims massacred in Hama by the late President Assad senior in the 1970's, of course the press were excluded from Syria as the bulldozers buried the bodies under the rubble of Syria's fourth largest city.

You are loosing the plot. Read my posting and you will see I didn't say it was Israelis who perpetrated the slaughter - rather it was someone with a twisted mind who allowed the Christian Phalangists into the enclave; 800 civilians were murdered while Israeli troops stood by knowing what was likely to happen. I too can read Wiki!

1. are you jewish - clearly in this debate we need to see peoples point of view?

2. what of the map and the clear FACT that Israel is in violation of international law which states the Palestinians have the right to form a nation on the west bank? You omit to post a link to the Wiki that deals with the truth about the Oslo Accord which merely reaffirms previous UN resolutions which support the rights if palestinians. Anyone who reads the Wiki pages on the israeli - palestinian conflict knows that Israel has some bizzare and twisted politics. On one side of their mouth they proclaim support for a Palestinian state while at the same time more blue dots appear on the map........

Accusing others of having biased views on Israel is an effective ploy but those who are impartial here will see you and others repeatedly ignore the real issue. Israelis are allowing the Knesset to steal land from palestinians - I've seen documentaries which show how it sickens the 'refusenicks' to take part in the grand game, and I find it sad that ordinary people in Israel are not driven to object to policies that are tantamount to slowly strangling the spirit out of palestine....... some may thinks it's clever but people presented with the facts will see it is immoral.

So please tell us whether you favor violating the international treaty - should Palestinians be granted the right to build a nation on the west bank or not?

Edited July 24, 2006 by bpw

[bpw]

It's hard to know where to start replying to such

I came to this site to discuss U.K housprices but if I have to refute your jaundiced view of history then so be it.

Evil...

I dont disagree with any of the history presented in your posting - so no shame on the Guardian readers. It's all there on Wiki and can probably be corroborated. But what about the basic problem. The Map tells the story better than I can.

Bear in mind agressive and dismissive posts by those who support Israel fail to see the main point of postings here and that is to learn. I would like to learn what your position is on the Israeli settlements on the West Bank. As far as I can tell this area is identified by International Treaty as being the rightful home of the Palestinians (many of who sold out, ran out or were pushed out of what is now Israel).

Edited July 24, 2006 by bpw

[eviluncle]

You are loosing the plot. Read my posting and you will see I didn't say it was Israelis who perpetrated the slaughter - rather it was someone with a twisted mind who allowed the Christian Phalangists into the enclave; 800 civilians were murdered while Israeli troops stood by knowing what was likely to happen. I too can read Wiki!

1. are you jewish - clearly in this debate we need to see peoples point of view?

2. what of the map and the clear FACT that Israel is in violation of international law which states the Palestinians have the right to form a nation on the west bank? You omit to post a link to the Wiki that deals with the truth about the Oslo Accord which merely reaffirms previous UN resolutions which support the rights if palestinians. Anyone who reads the Wiki pages on the israeli - palestinian conflict knows that Israel has some bizzare and twisted politics. On one side of their mouth they proclaim support for a Palestinian state while at the same time more blue dots appear on the map........

Accusing others of having biased views on Israel is an effective ploy but those who are impartial here will see you and others repeatedly ignore the real issue. Israelis are allowing the Knesset to steal land from palestinians - I've seen documentaries which show how it sickens the 'refusenicks' to take part in the grand game, and I find it sad that ordinary people in Israel are not driven to object to policies that are tantamount to slowly strangling the spirit out of palestine....... some may thinks it's clever but people presented with the facts will see it is immoral.

So please tell us whether you favor violating the international treaty - should Palestinians be granted the right to build a nation on the west bank or not?

BPW,

The Oslo accord was not one sided. In exchange for land Israel was supposed to be granted recognition and freedom from attack. As it happens (and is well documented) Yassir Arafat managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by trying to impose some extra conditions at the eleventh hour. It is clear that in their refusal to acknowlege Israels right to exist and by continued attacks on Israel that Hamas are in clear violation of Oslo too, though you decided not to mention this.

As for the settlements, Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza even though this caused considerable discord within Israel itself. Did this stop Palestinian attacks on Israelis? No way, if anything they increased as militants no doubt construed the pull out as weakness on Israels' part. This does not send a good message to Israelis who already suspect Islamic militants of a gradualist approach with the ultimate aim of Israel ceasing to exist.

You ask whether I approve of the settlements on the West bank. The answer is no I don't, but I can understand how they came into being in the aftermath of the 1967 war, which the arab nations started. Some zionists have a messianic belief that all this land belongs to them, but they are in no way the majority. The wall the Israelis are building is down to their understandable conclusion that they can not negotiate with the Palestinians in the current political climate. Are you aware that Israeli courts have ruled on re-routing parts of this wall to mitigate the disruption to Palestinian lives. The wall is not an ideal solution, far from it, but with the amount of emnity between two populations their separation into two contiguous areas is imho the only way to let the scars heal over time.

Do I welcome a Palestinian land as you put it? Well yes I do provided they recognise Israel and cease attacks on it. I would point out however that any Palestinian identity is a facade, a device if you like to beat Israel with. Read about pre-mandate Palestine if you want the truth about what 'Palestinian identity' consisted of prior to the British Mandate. A fact even acknowleged by senior PLO members in a press interview they granted to a european paper back in 1977.

[leefam83]

F@ck me , I thought this was supposed to be about housing in the UK. Tangent anybody

BPW,

The Oslo accord was not one sided. In exchange for land Israel was supposed to be granted recognition and freedom from attack. As it happens (and is well documented) Yassir Arafat managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by trying to impose some extra conditions at the eleventh hour. It is clear that in their refusal to acknowlege Israels right to exist and by continued attacks on Israel that Hamas are in clear violation of Oslo too, though you decided not to mention this.

As for the settlements, Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza even though this caused considerable discord within Israel itself. Did this stop Palestinian attacks on Israelis? No way, if anything they increased as militants no doubt construed the pull out as weakness on Israels' part. This does not send a good message to Israelis who already suspect Islamic militants of a gradualist approach with the ultimate aim of Israel ceasing to exist.

You ask whether I approve of the settlements on the West bank. The answer is no I don't, but I can understand how they came into being in the aftermath of the 1967 war, which the arab nations started. Some zionists have a messianic belief that all this land belongs to them, but they are in no way the majority. The wall the Israelis are building is down to their understandable conclusion that they can not negotiate with the Palestinians in the current political climate. Are you aware that Israeli courts have ruled on re-routing parts of this wall to mitigate the disruption to Palestinian lives. The wall is not an ideal solution, far from it, but with the amount of emnity between two populations their separation into two contiguous areas is imho the only way to let the scars heal over time.

Do I welcome a Palestinian land as you put it? Well yes I do provided they recognise Israel and cease attacks on it. I would point out however that any Palestinian identity is a facade, a device if you like to beat Israel with. Read about pre-mandate Palestine if you want the truth about what 'Palestinian identity' consisted of prior to the British Mandate. A fact even acknowleged by senior PLO members in a press interview they granted to a european paper back in 1977.

[Justice]

Intersting that poorly built high-rise buildings in Lebanon hit by laser guided bombs day after day are still standing, whilst the WTC 1 and 2 hit by aircraft (which their design was intended to absorb) collapse so completely that they manage stay within their building footprint.

Coincidence - not likely in my view.

Well said that man

9/11 was the start and now Bush wants to draw Iran into a war but the American people will not believe another pearl harbour type attack as more people by the day come to except that Bush attacked his own people so this time he is using his puppets, the Israelis to stoke up trouble so he can grab the oil in Iran.

make no mistake this has everything to do with Iran wanting to sell oil in euros, just like Sadam wanted to do before he got invaded else we would not know a thing about what he did to him own people.

Won’t be long before the Saudi Royals become involved, another puppet for GW-Bush to pull strings for.

Remember this when you are paying £2.00 for petrol and ask yourself what family cartel in the world benefits the most from oil prices going into outer space.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Justice

[RichB]

Talking about any nationality being a recent invention is a pretty moot point - generally speaking what we consider 'national identities' are a defacto relatively modern construct anyway.

That aside, how far back do you believe this incursion into lebanon was planned? Was it before, or after the US forced Syria to move its peacekeeping force out of lebanon?

[Tempest]

Mods, as a few others have indicated, I think this thread is going way off topic and is now in danger of turning into a venue largely for the espousal of political and religous views and some old cobblers from the conpiracy theorists, 9/11 et al. All fun stuff if you like that sort of thing but it is clogging up the main board and one can see it "igniting" into unpleasantness fairly soon. Can this be moved off topic?

[cprulesok]

Israel have been too heavy handed, but then if your neighbours hated you, told everyone they wanted to annihilate you, sent suicide bombers and rockets intermittently into your back garden, you'd eventually lose your temper. Ever since Mohammad started murdering Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians the Middle East has been a mess. Before Islam came along the different religions co-existed reasonably well. Islam (not fundamentalist either) preaches of two worlds, the world in submission to Allah and the world at war. Muslims are taught that the world must be submitted to Islam, if talking people into it doesn't work, then you must use the sword. That is how Islam spread (it never spread peacefully but by conquering) and that is how they are aiming to spread it now. Muslims are bought up hating Jews and Christians, I have travelled to Muslim countries, and the people think Hitler was the best thing since sliced bread because of all the Jews tyhe Nazis killed. The worst things I have heard spoken about Islam are from people who have converted from it themselves. It is a truly horrendous religion; aggressive, oppressive, racist and sexist. It is a blight on our planet.

Fu3K me !!!!!!!

well said, i cant believe you got this post on, although i occasionally write things here this sight is controlled by *****ers,

[tahoma]

I once read a theory that the longer a thread gets, the probablility of an accusation of fascism cropping up approaches 1.

How true.

[greengreen]

I once read a theory that the longer a thread gets, the probablility of an accusation of fascism cropping up approaches 1.

How true.

I think this is what you are referring to:

Godwins Law

[GCS15]

Go ahead and take the soft option and call me an anti-semite. That'd be heaps easier than refuting the EVERY ONE of these claims / points in these articles.

And for the record it is my opinion that these battles are not fought because of religion. Religion is used as an excuse but Jew's have the 10 commandments - one of which is "thou shalt not kill", the Muslims have an edict that non-combatants are not to be harmed, Catholicism allows for legitimate defence but Jesus did say to "turn the other cheek"

Israel 'presses US on bomb sale'

By Nick Miles

BBC News, Washington

Israeli F-16 combat pilot and plane

Israel has been bombing suspected Hezbollah sites in Lebanon

Reports from the US suggest Washington has been asked to speed up a shipment of precision bombs sold as part of a deal with Israel last year.

According to a report in the New York Times, Israel made the request after it began its air assault on Hezbollah targets in Lebanon 12 days ago.

The weapons, including five-tonne laser-guided bombs, are part of a sale signed last year.

Unnamed US officials say the request to speed up delivery is unusual.

The disclosure is likely to anger Arab governments because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding Israel at such a sensitive time.

Precision-guided missiles are playing a key part in Israel's military strategy, which has included attempts to destroy bunkers it says are used by Hezbollah.

Israel is one of the largest customers for US armaments.

It also receives several billion dollars a year in direct and indirect aid from Washington.

Columnist Ann Coulter Calls for Wiping Out All of South Lebanon

By E&P Staff

Published: July 20, 2006 10:00 AM ET

NEW YORK Ann Coulter, in her latest syndicated column, laments that all of South Lebanon hasn't been obliterated.

"Some have argued that Israel's response is disproportionate, which is actually correct: It wasn't nearly strong enough. I know this because there are parts of South Lebanon still standing," Coulter opines in her latest column, posted last night. Already the Israeli air attack has cost at least 300 lives and one in eight Lebanese citizens are now refugees.

The Universal Press Syndicate commentator added, "Yes, if the Democrats were running things, our cities would be ash heaps and the state of Israel would have been wiped off the map by now.

And Coulter took yet another swipe at her favorite newspaper: "I knew the events in the Middle East were big when The New York Times devoted nearly as much space to them as it did to a New York court ruling last week rejecting gay marriage."

Earlier this week Coulter joked that she was the one who sent the letter with white powder to the Times a few days ago.

Israel Plans Torture Center for Abducted Lebanese

Saturday July 22nd 2006, 4:51 pm

According to the Israeli news site Yedioth Internet, the “IDF [iOF] has started constructing a temporary detention center designed to hold the Lebanese prisoners that will be captured during army operations in Southern Lebanon…. The fact that the army was granted special permission from the Chief Military Rabbinate to continue with construction works throughout Saturday attests to the urgency attributed to the project.”

In other words, the abduction and torture of Lebanese Shi’a (who are all considered members of Hezbollah) has received the imprimatur of the highest religious authority in Israel. How these people sleep at night is a mystery.

During the last occupation of southern Lebanon, Israel used the Khiam prison to warehouse and torture Lebanese, a direct violation of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, an agreement Israel is party to.

“Since the facility opened in 1985, hundreds of Lebanese have been arbitrarily detained in Khiam without charge for indefinite periods of time. Many of the detainees, including women, have been tortured during interrogation and subjected to abysmal conditions of confinement,” reported Human Rights Watch in 1999, a year before Hezbollah kicked the IOF out of Lebanon.

No doubt Israel’s new “detention facility” will mirror the torture chambers at Khiam.

“The prisoners’ testimonies and the cells bear witness to what went on inside,” explains Arjan El Fassed, writing for Electronic Intifada. “Prisoners were crammed into tiny, filthy spaces where they ate and slept. Those not in solitary confinement were allowed out once a week for 15 to 30 minutes in the ’sun room’ and open space surrounded by walls.”

Prisoners have been routinely tortured, three times a day. Torture included beatings, being prodded with electrical cables in sensitive parts of the body and being hung from painful positions….

Detainees were given inadequate food rations and beaten when they prayed until a riot in 1989, during which two prisoners, Bilal al-Salman and Ibrahim Abu ‘Azz, were killed….

Among the prisoners were Lebanese journalist Cosette Ibrahim, kidnapped while reporting in southern Lebanon. Some of the detainees were children, like 15-year-old Ali Tawbeh, who with his parents was dragged from his home by the Israeli occupation forces in 1997. Other hostages, like Abdeh Malkani, were over seventy years old. Hussein Awada, 65 years old, had been detained since June 1999. He had serious heart problems and could only move with the help of a stick….

Between 1987 and 1995 prisoners in Khiam were not allowed access to their families. They were denied the right of prompt judicial review of the lawfulness of their detention. A number of detainees have died in Khiam, some of them after torture, others because of lack of medical treatment. Other prisoners have been released after years of torture and incommunicado detention with serious physical or mental illnesses.

In regard to the journalist Cosette Ibrahim, the Center for Media Freedom wrote: “On 2 September 1999, during a sweep in Rmeish, a village located near the Israeli-occupied South Lebanon zone, the South Lebanese Army (SLA) arrested Cosette while she was visiting her parents. She was arrested with her brother-in-law, De Gaulle Abu Tass, and another man, Samir Khiam. No official reason was given for the arrest. Reports by Lebanese human rights groups indicate that Cosette was arrested for refusing to collaborate with the pro-Israeli South Lebanese Army of General Antoine Lahad. Other reports attest that Cosette was arrested for her articles attacking the Israeli occupation of South Lebanon…. Cosette … has not been given a trial [and] may be held hostage for the purpose of negotiations with Hizbullah. This is illegal under Section 34 of the Fourth Geneva Convention ratified by Israel.”

But then Israel and the United States don’t do the Geneva Conventions.

“The detention center will be based on the model of previous prisons built in Israel such as Ktziot in the south and the Ofer base in Jerusalem,” Ynet continues. “During the Lebanon War, thousands of Lebanese detainees were incarcerated at the al-Hiyam [Khiam] prison located in Lebanese territory. Defense officials explained to Ynet that setting up a detention center on such a scale is proof of the Israeli government’s plans for an extensive operation that may last for months.”

In 2002, a Palestinian named Abed Khalil told the Inter Press Service Newswire about his stay in the Ketziot prison:

Ketziot was a prison in the middle of the desert. It was in southern Israel, toward the Egyptian border. No one could get there. Visitors were not allowed. Not even lawyers could go there because the prisoners were called administrative detainees, which means they were held without a trial and without being charged.

The soldiers used bulldozers to push the dunes up like mountains around it. The sun there felt like someone was pouring fire on you. It was a place with no buildings, only tents with cells.

I was 14 when they sent me to Ketziot. They put me there during the first intifada for 6 months because I threw stones at the soldiers who came into our camp. I don’t think you can dream a worse nightmare.

The floors of the cells at Ketziot did not sit on concrete but directly on the desert. At night when you slept, the scorpions and black snakes came in through the sand. There were no lights so you could not watch to kill them. The cell was small so you could not move away from them.

If you did not give information about people in your camp, the soldiers beat you. If you did give information, they said it proved you were a terrorist, so they kept you longer. And they beat you.

In testimony provided to Al-Haq (part of the Executive Committee of the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network), Ofer prison was described as follows:

This prison is located in Betounya just a few kilometers to the West of Ramallah. It is originally a military camp at which a detention center has been formed. It is estimated that 720 Palestinian detainees are held in this prison. Eighty-five of them are administrative detainees. Several others are Palestinians holding Jordanian passports.

Conditions in this prison are not better than those in Ansar 3 [Ketziot]. Prisoners are held in tents distributed on sections. Many harsh beatings have been reported in this prison. Overcrowding, poor food, terrible sanitation services, widespread insects and reptiles are common features of this prison. Prisoners are also in need of changes of clothes, especially underwear.

Additionally, there are some sick prisoners in this prison. These prisoners are deprived of medical care. In an affidavit given by detainee Murad Abu Gharbeyyeh he mentioned that he suffered from psychological instability after his wife had been killed in front of him. He lost his conscious many times. The doctor of the prison diagnosed his case, but he was not given appropriate treatment.

In short, Israel plans to invade southern Lebanon again, kidnap Lebanese, and feed them into an illegal detention and torture system based on the notorious Khiam prison and torture camps where Palestinians are imprisoned for resisting the occupation.

In Israel, with racist and sociopathic Zionists at the helm, it will be business as usual in regard to the Lebanese people, who are considered little more than untermenschen.

The Shame of Being

An American

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

Do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by Israel’s attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel misses Hizbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS. Don’t be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less evil than the puppet master?

Of course, you don’t know these things, because the US print and TV media do not report them.

Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush has told the UN “NO.” Bush has told the European Community “NO.” Bush has told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister “NO.” Twice. Bush is very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel’s rampage and wishes he could do the same thing in Iraq.

Does it make you a Proud American that “your” president gave Israel the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from Israeli shelling, on residential neighborhoods in the capital of Beirut and throughout Lebanon, on hospitals, on power plants, on food production and storage, on ports, on civilian airports, on bridges, on roads, on every piece of infrastructure on which civilized life depends? Are you a Proud American? Or are you an Israeli puppet?

On July 20, “your” House of Representatives voted 410-8 in favor of Israel’s massive war crimes in Lebanon. Not content with making every American complicit in war crimes, “your” House of Representatives, according to the Associated Press, also “condemns enemies of the Jewish state.”

Who are the “enemies of the Jewish state”?

They are the Palestinians whose land has been stolen by the Jewish state, whose homes and olive groves have been destroyed by the Jewish state, whose children have been shot down in the streets by the Jewish state, whose women have been abused by the Jewish state. They are Palestinians who have been walled off into ghettos, who cannot reach their farm lands or medical care or schools, who cannot drive on roads through Palestine that have been constructed for Israelis only. They are Palestinians whose ancient towns have been invaded by militant Zionist “settlers” under the protection of the Israeli army who beat and persecute the Palestinians and drive them out of their towns. They are Palestinians who cannot allow their children outside their homes because they will be murdered by Israeli “settlers.”

The Palestinians who confront Israeli evil are called “terrorists.” When Bush forced free elections on Palestine, the people voted for Hamas. Hamas is the organization that has stood up to the Jewish state. This means, of course, that Hamas is evil, anti-semitic, un-American and terrorist. The US and Israel responded by cutting off all funds to the new government. Democracy is permitted only if it produces the results Bush and Israel want.

Israelis never practice terror. Only those who are in Israel’s way are terrorists.

Another enemy of the Jewish state is Hizbollah. Hizbollah is a militia of Shia Muslims created in 1982 when Israel first invaded Lebanon. During this invasion the great moral Jewish state arranged for the murder of refugees in refugee camps. The result of Israel’s atrocities was Hizbollah, which fought the Israeli army, defeated it, and drove it, with its tail between its legs, out of Lebanon. Today Hizbollah not only defends southern Lebanon but also provides social services such as orphanages and medical care.

To cut to the chase, the enemies of the Jewish state are any Muslim country not ruled by an American puppet friendly to Israel. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the oil emirates have sided with Israel against their own kind, because they are dependent either on American money or on American protection from their own people. Sooner or later these totally corrupt governments that do not represent the people they rule will be overthrown. It is only a matter of time.

Indeed Bush and Israel may be hastening the process in their frantic effort to overthrow the governments of Syria and Iran. Both governments have more popular support than Bush has, but the White House Moron doesn’t know this. The Moron thinks Syria and Iran will be “cakewalks” like Iraq, where ten proud divisions of the US military are tied down by a few lightly armed insurgents.

If you are still a Proud American, consider that your pride is doing nothing good for Israel or for America.

On July 20 when “your” House of Representatives, following “your” US Senate, passed the resolution in support of Israel’s war crimes, the most powerful lobby in Washington, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), quickly got out a press release proclaiming “The American people overwhelming support Israel’s war on terrorism and understand that we must stand by our closest ally in this time of crisis.”

The truth is that Israel created the crisis by invading a country with a pro-American government. The truth is that the American people do not support Israel’s war crimes, as the CNN quick poll results make clear and as was made clear by callers into C-Span.

Despite the Israeli spin on news provided by US “reporting,” a majority of Americans do not approve of Israeli atrocities against Lebanese civilians. Hizbollah is located in southern Lebanon. If Israel is targeting Hizbollah, why are Israeli bombs falling on northern Lebanon? Why are they falling on Beirut? Why are they falling on civilian airports? On schools and hospitals?

Now we arrive at the main point. When the US Senate and House of Representatives pass resolutions in support of Israeli war crimes and condemn those who resist Israeli aggression, the Senate and House confirm Osama bin Laden’s propaganda that America stands with Israel against the Arab and Muslim world.

Indeed, Israel, which has one of the world’s largest per capita incomes, is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. Many believe that much of this “aid” comes back to AIPAC, which uses it to elect “our” representatives in Congress.

This perception is no favor to Israel, whose population is declining, as the smart ones have seen the writing on the wall and have been leaving. Israel is surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who are being turned into enemies of Israel by Israel’s actions and inhumane policies.

The hope in the Muslim world has always been that the United States would intervene in behalf of compromise and make Israel realize that Israel cannot steal Palestine and turn every Palestinian into a refugee.

This has been the hope of the Arab world. This is the reason our puppets have not been overthrown. This hope is the reason America still had some prestige in the Arab world.

The House of Representatives resolution, bought and paid for by AIPAC money, is the final nail in the coffin of American prestige in the Middle East. It shows that America is, indeed, Israel’s puppet, just as Osama bin Laden says, and as a majority of Muslims believe.

With hope and diplomacy dead, henceforth America and Israel have only tooth and claw. The vaunted Israeli army could not defeat a rag tag militia in southern Lebanon. The vaunted US military cannot defeat a rag tag, lightly armed, insurgency drawn from a minority of the population in Iraq, insurgents, moreover, who are mainly engaged in civil war against the Shia majority.

What will the US and its puppet master do? Both are too full of hubris and paranoia to admit their terrible mistakes. Israel and the US will either destroy from the air the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Iran so that civilized life becomes impossible for Muslims, or the US and Israel will use nuclear weapons to intimidate Muslims into acquiescence to Israel’s desires.

Muslim genocide in one form or another is the professed goal of the neoconservatives who have total control over the Bush administration. Neocon godfather Norman Podhoretz has called for World War IV (in neocon thinking WW III was the cold war) to overthrow Islam in the Middle East, deracinate the Islamic religion and turn it into a formalized, secular ritual.

Rumsfeld’s neocon Pentagon has drafted new US war doctrine that permits pre-emptive nuclear attack on non-nuclear states.

Neocon David Horowitz says that by slaughtering Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, “Israel is doing the work of the rest of the civilized world,” thus equating war criminals with civilized men.

Neocon Larry Kudlow says that “Israel is doing the Lord’s work” by murdering Lebanese, a claim that should give pause to Israel’s Christian evangelical supporters. Where does the Lord Jesus say, “go forth and murder your neighbors so that you may steal their lands”?

The complicity of the American public in these heinous crimes will damn America for all time in history.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: paulcraigroberts@yahoo.com

Edited July 24, 2006 by GCS15

[Guest wrongmove]

Monday In The Markets Might Get Interesting -- Forget I R

To return to the OP - FTSE up by 1%

[redwing]

To return to the OP - FTSE up by 1%

And Tuesday a modest growth of 0.3% up 17 points.

[Sledgehead]

Could anyone explain to me what so many "British" people are doing in Lebanon of all places in the first place???

errr, why? You might as well ask why so many brits are un dubai.

the really interesting question is why so many non-israel born Jewish folk flock to israel ... answer that and the expression "extremist" takes on a far more realistic meaning. How many moderate christians, for instance, would ever dream of moving to an area deemed "holy"?

[Sledgehead]

Fair comment.

Have you ever heard of a terrorist cell know as the IRA? They used to put bomb in litter bins and tube stations in London and other major British cities throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's.

One went off 100 yards from me, Camden high st, 27/2/93.

How many Syrian devices have gone off in London over the past 25 years?

"Mr. Howard: The information available relates to acts of terrorism connected with the affairs of Northern Ireland as defined in section 14 of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. Until 1989 only those incidents which caused death or injury were recorded. Date Location Death/injuries

2 December 1980 Princess Louise Regiment Territorial Army Centre, Hammersmith Road, London W6 Device exploded injuring five people

10 October 1981 Ebury Bridge Road, London SW1 Device exploded killing two people and injuring 39

17 October 1981 London SE21 One person injured in an explosion

26 October 1981 Wimpy Bar, Oxford Street, London W1 One person killed in an explosion

23 November 1981 Royal Artillery HQ, Government House, Woolwich New Road, London SE18 Device exploded injuring two people

20 July 1982 South Carriage Road, Hyde Park, London W1 Device exploded killing four people and injuring 28

Regents Park, London NW1 Device exploded killing seven people and injuring 31

10 December 1983 Royal Artillery Barracks, Repository Road, London SE18 Device exploded injuring three people

17 December 1983 Outside Harrods, Knightsbridge, London SW3 Six people were killed and 91 injured in an explosion

25 December 1983 Orchard Street, London W1 Device exploded injuring two people

12 October 1984 Grand Hotel, Brighton, Sussex Device exploded during the Conservative Party Conference killing five people and injuring 30 others

15/16 August 1987 Various Postal devices were sent to six senior civil servants. No injuries

1 August 1988 Inglis Barracks, London SW7 Device exploded killing one person and injuring eight others

20 February 1989 Ternhill Barracks, Shropshire One person injured in an explosion

22 September 1989 Royal Marines School of Music, North Barracks, Deal, Kent Device exploded killing 11 and injuring 21 others

15 November 1989 Kensington Device discovered and defused. No injuries

18 November 1989 Married Quarters, Colchester Device attached to car exploded injuring two people

16 January 1990 Army HQ, SE District, Aldershot Postal device discovered and defused--No injuries

20 February 1990 Combined Services Recruitment Centre, Rutland Street, Leicester Device attached to a vehicle exploded nearby injuring two people

25 February 1990 Army Recruiting Office, New Road, Halifax Device exploded. No injuries

14 May 1990 Service Education Centre, Eltham, S London SE9 Device exploded injuring five people

16 May 1990 Army Recruiting Centre, Wembley, Middlesex Device exploded killing one person and injuring four others

1 June 1990 Lichfield Railway Station, Staffordshire One person was killed and two others injured in a shooting incident

9 June 1990 Honourable Artillery HQ, City Road, London EC1 19 people were injured in an explosion

12 June 1990 Hampshire Device discovered and defused. No injuries

21 June 1990 RAF Stanmore Park, Uxbridge Device exploded. No injuries

25 June 1990 Carlton Club, St. James, London SW1 Bomb exploded injuring 20 people

6 July 1990 The Strand, London WC2 Small device exploded in a litter bin. No injuries

20 July 1990 Stock Exchange, London EC1 Device exploded--no injuries

30 July 1990 Pevensey Ian Gow MP was killed when a device exploded under his car

6 August 1990 London NW8 Device discovered and defused at the former home of Lord Armstrong. No injuries

13 August 1990 Didcot Device discovered and defused at the home of Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockley. No injuries

10 September 1990 Army and Navy Recruiting Office, Derby Bomb exploded--no injuries

17 September 1990 Army Information Centre, Finchley, London Army colour sergeant shot and injured as he sat in a car outside the office

18 September 1990 Staffordshire Air Chief Marshall Sir Peter Terry was shot and injured at his home. His wife suffered minor injuries

27 September 1990 Royal Overseas League, Park Place, London WC1 Device discovered and defused. No injuries

24 January 1991 Territorial Army Firing Range, Cannock Chase, Staffordshire Small explosion and a shot was fired. No injuries

7 February 1991 Downing Street, London SW1 Three mortar bombs fired. One minor injury

18 February 1991 Paddington Station, London W2 Device exploded. No injuries

Victoria Station, London SW1 Device exploded. One man killed and 38 people injured

25 February 1991 Napsbury Lane, St. Albans Device exploded on a railway line. No injuries

3 April 1991 Preston Railway Station, Preston, Lancashire A number of incendiary devices were found on a platform. No injuries

5 April 1991 Arndale Shopping Centre, Manchester A number of devices were discovered in shops, some of which caused fires. No injuries

28 June 1991 Beck Theatre, Hayes, Middlesex Device discovered and defused outside the theatre. No injuries

30 June 1991 Royal Navy and RAF Recruiting Office, Fishergate Centre, Preston Device discovered. Detonated in controlled explosion. No injuries

5 August 1991 Cambridge Public House, Charing Cross Road, London Fire caused by incendiary devices. No injuries

29 August 1991 London Underground Depot, Hammersmith W6 Three incendiary devices discovered under a seat. No injuries

31 August 1991 Bargain Bookshop, Charing Cross Road, London WC2 Incendiary device discovered. No injuries

15 November 1991 Old Barclays Bank, St. Peters Street, St. Albans, Hertfordshire Device exploded killing two members of the Provisional IRA. A member of the public was injured

1 December 1991 The Discount Furniture Store Habitat, The World of Leather, The Reject Shop, Tottenham Court Road A number of incendiary devices ignited causing damage to property but no injuries

2 December 1991 Littlewoods, Oxford Street, London W1 Incendiary device ignited. No injuries

7-8 December 1991 Various locations in Blackpool A number of incendiary devices were discovered in locations around Blackpool. No injuries

8 December 1991 Arndale Centre, Manchester Seven incendiary devices ignited. No injuries

14 December 1991 Brent Cross Shopping Centre Four devices found in shops. No injuries

15 December 1991 Sainsbury Wing, National Gallery, London WC2 An incendiary device partially ignited. No injuries

16 December 1991 Railway line near Clapham Junction Bomb exploded on the railway line. No injuries

23 December 1991 Ilford Underground Depot Incendiary device ignited. No injuries

Neasden Underground Deport Incendiary devices ignited. No injuries

Train at Harrow on the Hill Incendiary devices ignited. No injuries

10 January 1992 Whitehall Place, London SW1 Small device exploded. No injuries

17 January 1992 Marquis of Granby Public House, Shaftesbury Avenue, London W1 Two incendiary devices discovered. No injuries

30 January 1992 Elephant and Castle Underground Depot, London SE17 Incendiary device found. No injuries

3 February 1992 Neasden Underground Depot Incendiary device found under seat. No injuries

7 February 1992 London Underground Sidings between Barking and Upney Stations Incendiary device ignited. No injuries

11 February 1992 Telephone box, Parliamentary Street, London SW1 (outside the Treasury) Small device discovered and made safe. No injuries

28 February 1992 London Bridge Railway Station, London SE1 Device exploded injuring 29 people

29 February 1992 Crown Prosecution Service, London EC4 Device exploded injuring two people

1 March 1992 White Hart Lane BR Station Tottenham, London N17 Small device discovered and defused

10 March 1992 Near Wandsworth Common Railway Station, London SW18 Small device exploded beside railway line. No injuries

6 April 1992 Bridle Lane, near Piccadilly Circus, London W1 Device exploded outside a building housing various offices

10 April 1992 St. Mary Axe, City of London EC3 Large improvised explosive device exploded killing three people and injuring 91. Many properties damaged

11 April 1992 Staples Corner, Junction of M1 and North Circular Road Large improvised explosive device exploded causing serious damage to roads and nearby buildings

9-10 May 1992 Metro Centre, Gateshead A number of incendiary devices ignited causing minimal damage

7 June 1992 Royal Festival Hall, London SE1 Device exploded causing blast damage. No injuries

8 June 1992 A64 Leeds-York near Tadcaster, North Yorkshire Constable Goodman was shot and killed and a PC seriously injured by two gunmen

10 June 1992 Wilcox Place, Victoria Street Small device exploded in a litter bin near the Army and Navy Dept. Store. No injuries

15 June 1992 St. Albans Street, near Piccadilly Circus Device exploded in a cab, which had been hijacked. No injuries

25 June 1992 Coleman Street, City of London EC2 Device exploded hidden in a brief case under a car. Limited damage. One police officer suffered shock

30-31 July 1992 Milton Keynes (Shops, Library) Two incendiary devices discovered--only minimal damage caused

25 August 1992 Shropshire Regimental Museum and two furniture shops, Shrewsbury A small device exploded at the museum and incendiary devices ignited in the shops. Some damage caused in the museum

6 September 1992 London Hilton Hotel, Park Lane, London W1 Small device exploded in the gents' toilets in the foyer of the hotel. Little damage and no casualties

17 September 1992 Madame Tussaud's, Marylebone Road, London NW1 Two incendiary devices caused a small fire

The Planetarium, Marylebone Road, London NW1 A small device exploded causing minor damage

Imperial War Museum, Lambeth Road, London SE1 Two incendiary devices discovered and extinguished. Minor damage caused

7 October 1992 Junction of The Haymarket and Panton Street, Piccadilly SW1 Small device exploded in a litter bin. Five people suffered minor injuries. Minimal damage

Near Centre Point, Flitcroft Street, London WC2 Small device exploded behind a BT junction box. Slight damage and no casualties

8 October 1992 Tooley Street, London SE1 Device exploded under a car causing damage to two other cars. One person slightly injured

Melcombe Street, London NW1 Small device exploded under a car, causing little damage and no injuries

9 October 1992 Royal British Legion, Nursery Road, Southgate N14 Small device exploded under a car in the car park. No injuries

Car Park, Arnos Grove Underground Station Small device exploded under a car. No injuries

10 October 1992 Paddington Green Police Station, Harrow Road, Paddington W2 Device exploded in a phone box outside the police station. One person injured

12 October 1992 Sussex Arms Public House, Long Acre, Convent Garden A device exploded in the gents' toilets killing one person (who died the following day as a result of injuries) and injuring four others

19 October 1992 Novotel Hotel, Shortlands, Hammersmith W6 Small device exploded under the wheel arch of a coach parked outside the Hotel. No casualties

Oxenden Street, London SW1 Device exploded under a car. Two people treated for shock

21 October 1992 Railway Line, Nr Silver Street Station Edmonton Device exploded on the track as a train was passing, causing little damage. Two people were treated for minor injuries

21 October 1992 (Cont.) Princess Louise Territorial Army Centre, Hammersmith Road W6 Device, believed to have been hung on railings, exploded. Three people suffered minor injuries

Railway Line, Nr Harrow Road (junction with Furness Road) NW10 Device exploded causing slight damage to the track, but no casualties.

22 October 1992 Sewage Pipe, Wick Lane E3 Small device exploded causing damage to a sewage pipe. No casualties

25 October 1992 London SW1 Device exploded in a doorway causing some damage to the building and to nearby cars. No casualties

30 October 1992 Whitehall, London SW1 (nr Downing Street) Small device exploded in a hijacked minicab outside Cabinet Office. No one was injured

14 November 1992 Stoke Newington Road, London N16 Van discovered containing a very large improvised explosive device. One policeman was shot and injured confronting two men

15 November 1992 Canada Tower, Canary Wharf Large improvised explosive device is made safe after security guards challenged two men

16 November 1992 Collingwood Street, Bethnal Green E1 Device in van made safe

1 December 1992 Stephens Street/Tottenham Court Road Large improvised explosive device in van made safe

3 December 1992 Deansgate and Cateaton Street, Manchester Two small devices exploded under bushes causing damage to properties and minor injury to 64 people

9 December 1992 Woodside Park Underground Station, London N12 HME device partially detonated in a van in car park. No injuries

10 December 1992 Wood Green Shopping Centre, London N22 Two devices exploded in litter bins outside shops. Eleven people were slightly injured

16 December 1992 John Lewis Department Store Oxford Street W1 Small device exploded in the gents' toilets on the third floor. One person was treated for shock

Cavendish Square W1 Small device exploded in a litter bin. Three people were slightly injured

22 December 1992 Hampstead Tube Station Small device exploded on emergency staircase

6 January 1993 Reject Shop, Plaza Shopping Centre, London W1 Incendiary device ignited causing minor damage

Dillons' Bookshop, Northumberland Avenue WC2 Very small device exploded causing little damage

C and A, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited. Very little damage

Video Shop, 60 Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited. Minor damage

7 January 1993 Dillon's Bookshop, Northumberland Avenue W1 Unignited incendiary device found

14 January 1993 Top Shop, Oxford Circus W1 Unignited incendiary device found

28 January 1993 Harrods, Brompton Road SW1 Small device exploded in a litter bin. Two people slightly injured and 30 ft of shop front damaged

3 February 1993 Train at Kent House Station, Kent Small device exploded on train stopped and evacuated following warnings. No casualties

South Kensington Tube Station, London SW7 Device exploded in underground passage-way following warning and evacuation. No casualties

10 February 1993 London SW1 Small device exploded in doorway of block of flats. Minor damage. No injuries.

26 February 1993 Warrington, Cheshire Policeman shot and injured after stopping a van; a car hijacked; and three devices exploded (and unignited incendiary made safe) at gasworks causing extensive damage and no injuries.

27 February 1993 Camden High Street NW1 Small device exploded in litter bin. 18 people injured--two seriously

20 March 1993 Bridge Street, Warrington, Cheshire Two small devices exploded in litter bins in shopping area. Two children killed and 54 people injured, four extremely seriously

7 April 1993 Argyle Square, London WC1 Small device exploded in builders skip. Minor damage. No injuries

23 April 1993 Esso Oil Refinery, North Shields Small device exploded next to pipe carrying heavy oil. No injuries. Some damage

24 April 1993 Bishopsgate, London EC2 Large improvised explosive device exploded killing one person and injuring 44 more. Extensive damage to properties

Manor House Tube Station, London N22 Small device exploded in hijacked minicab. No injuries

Judd Street, St. Pancras, London WC1 Small device exploded in hijacked minicab. No injuries

9 May 1993 Galleries Shopping Centre, Bristol Two incendiaries ignited, in the Reject Shop and Waterstone Bookshop. No injuries

12 May 1993 Reject Shop, Cornmarket, Oxford Incendiary device malfunctioned. No injuries

9 June 1993 Gas Installation, Gateshead, Tyne and Wear Small explosive device detonated causing fire and damage to gas storage tank. No injuries

Esso Oil Refinery, North Shields Two small explosive devices detonated on pipes leading to storage tanks. Little damage, no injuries

13 August 1993 Locations in Bournemouth Six incendiary devices in retail outlets in Bournemouth. Some ignited causing damage. Two small devices on the pier. One exploded. No injuries

28 August 1993 Wormwood Street, London (City) EC2 Small device discovered containing semtex. Disrupted by controlled explosion. No damage. No injuries

16 September 1993 Curzon Phoenix Cinema, Charing Cross Road WC2 Two small incendiary devices found. Had malfunctioned, no damage, no injuries

MGM Cinema, Shaftsbury Avenue WC2 One small incendiary device found. Had malfunctioned, no damage, no injuries

2 October 1993 Finchley Road, London NW8 Three devices exploded. Five people injured some localised damage. One device found and made safe

4 October 1993 Tottenham Lane, London N8 Two devices exploded. No injuries. Some localised damage

Archway Road, London N19 Two devices exploded. No injuries. Some localised damage

4 October 1993 (Cont.) Highgate High Street, London N6 One device exploded. No injuries, some localised damage. A second device discovered and made safe

8 October 1993 Junction of Coles Green Road and Humber Road near the North Circular Road junction of Staples Corner NW2 One device exploded. No injuries, some localised damage

Outside the Black Lion Public House at 295 West End Lane NW6 One device exploded. No injuries, some localised damage

23 October 1993 Wooton Underwood, Brill, Buckinghamshire Device exploded, damaging footbridge over railway

24 October 1993 Reading Station One device in toilets made safe. Another device later exploded by the tracks; no injuries and little damage

24 October 1993 Basingstoke Station One device in toilets made safe

29 October 1993 Edwardes Square W8 Small device exploded beside a car. Extensive damage to car, no injuries

14 December 1993 Railway line near Woking station, Surrey Small device exploded on railway line. Slight damage to line. No injuries

16 December 1993 Railway line, near Brookwood and Farnborough stations, Surrey Two devices discovered. Disrupted by controlled explosion

20 December 1993 Sorting Office, London EC1 Postal device discovered. Made safe. No damage. No injuries

Travellers Tavern, Elizabeth Street, Victoria, London SW1 6 devices discovered in a holdall. At least one ignited. No injuries, minor damage

Mount Pleasant Sorting Office, London EC1 Package ignited. No injuries, minor damage

Northfields Tube Station, London W13 Small device ignited in a litter bin. No significant damage and no injuries

27 January 1994 C and A, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage

Mothercare, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage

Silverdale Travel Goods, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; some damage

28 January 1994 C and A, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage

Mothercare, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device made safe

29 January 1994 Nightingales, Oxford Street W1 One incendiary device ignited and another made safe; little damage

18 February 1994 Record shop, 157 Charing Cross Road WC2 Incendiary device discovered and made safe

19 February 1994 Record Shop, 157 Charing Cross Road WC2 Very small high explosive device exploded; minor damage

Top Shop, Oxford Circus W1 Two incendiary devices ignited; little damage

Hennes Oxford Circus W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage

19 February 1994 Newsagents, Great Cumberland Place W1 Incendiary device ignited destroying shop

Burtons, New Oxford Street WC1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage. A further device was discovered

Burtons, Regent Street W1 Incendiary device ignited and very small high explosive device detonated; little damage

Liberty's, Regent Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage

Mr. Byrite, Oxford Circus W1 Incendiary device made safe

22 February 1994 Mr. Handy, Edgware Road W2 Incendiary device made safe

9 March 1994 Heathrow Airport, London 4 mortars launched from a car parked at the Excelsior Hotel, landing on or near the northern runway. None exploded and there was no damage

11 March 1994 Heathrow Airport, London 4 mortars launched from waste ground, landing on an aircraft parking area near Terminal Four. None exploded and there was no damage

13 March 1994 Heathrow Airport, London 5 mortars launched from waste ground, landing in the vicinity of Terminal Four. None exploded and there was no damage

15 March 1994 Railway line near Sevenoaks, Kent IED discovered. Believed to be left over from the series of attacks in December but had failed to detonate

21 March 1994 Railway line Orpington, Kent Timer of IED discovered. Believed to be left over from series of attacks in December but had failed to detonate

6 June 1994 Sevenoaks railway station, Kent Device made safe in controlled explosion

10 June 1994 Liberty's Oxford Street, London W1 Two incendiary devices discovered and made safe

11 June 1994 Mr. Byrite's, Oxford Street, London W1 Incendiary device ignited causing little damage. A further device had failed to detonate

13 June 1994 Railway line, one mile from Stevenage station Device exploded on embankment by railway line. Little damage

12 July 1994 Heysham port, Lancashire Lorry found to contain approximately two tonnes of improvised explosive device

21 July 1994 Reading railway station Stolen suitcase found to contain two incendiary devices along with component parts for six high explosive devices

13 August 1994 Shopping centre, Bognor Regis Explosive device, left in a bicycle, detonated damaging 15 shops but causing no injuries

Brighton pier, Sussex Explosive device found in bicycle. Made safe by controlled explosion

22 August 1994 Regent Street W1 High explosive device found in litter bin outside Laura Ashley shop. Device defused--no injuries and no damage

9 February 1996 South Quay, Canary Wharf, London Two people killed and some 40 injured in an explosion

15 February 1996 Junction of Charing Cross Road and Litchfield Street, London WC2 High explosive device in telephone kiosk disrupted by controlled explosion

18 February 1996 Wellington Street, London WC2 Improvised high explosive device detonated prematurely on a bus, killing the terrorist transporting the device and injuring eight other people "

4 Mar 1996 : Column: 62

Deserves repeating especially the red, bold bit : yes you stupid children who are too young to know dick, the IRA killed 5 in attempting to ANNIHILATE THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT - IE THE STATE OF GREAT BRITAIN.

Did we immediately respond with 150mm self-propelled guns, striking at Ireland who clearly allowed IRA to move across the Ireland / N. Ireland border? Did we move into the Shankhill Road, home of Irish Republican extremists and flatten the place with bulldozers? Did we respond with massive air assaults on Dublin International airport?

Did we threaten the US lest they ceased their fundraising for the IRA?

Were we a lilly-livered nation at the time?

The answer to all three is of course NO. Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister of the time, who came within an inch of being murdered by the IRA and who took the UK to war over the Faulkland Islands with Argentina realised that turning the clock back to the days of the Black & Tan was no way to behave in a modern world.

The difference of course is that to fundamentalist Jewish Israelis (the sort of people who reckon they need to move to a terrestrial location to be closer to god - how stupid is that?) this is not a "modern world": it is simply "god's world". For them and indeed all other religious freaks, there is no such thing as "progress" or "world harmony", because all this means nothing in the face of "god".

Here's more on the IRA. I'd love somebody to explain to me why, if shelling Lebanon is fine, shelling Ireland could not also be justified:

Bush greets terrorists, shuns victims, Gerry Adams Yes, Michael Howard No -

London, 1993

If you have trouble connecting with this "history lesson", check out the pictures of victims in that thread. Attrocities are attrocities no matter when they occur and our knee jerk reaction, as animals, is to demand retribution. As humans we must seek a higher goal.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Sledgehead

[Englebert]

Powerfully put Sledgehead - excellent post.

[Marina]

Pathetic.

Is that what it has come down to? 'Money in the Markets might get interesting' .... A forlorn hope that a stock market crash will trigger a recession and house prices will come down.

You are grasping at straws.

Go and disrupt an Inside Track seminar. That would liven things up and get your cause lots of publicity.

[shermanator]

Powerfully put Sledgehead - excellent post.

How sad that this thread has degenerated into an open season on Jews, but quite predictible given the current climate of anti-Semitism. I wonder if this and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists will reflect badly on HPC.........?

Anyways, Mr. Sledgehead has put himself on the outer fringes of respectability with his comments - even Jordan and Egypt have recognised Israel's right to exist, something which many here don't appear to share.

Israel is an integral part of the Jewish people, both as a mental and physical entity. It is the Jewih people's Biblical birthright to return to the land of our fathers, though in this world religion is sneered upon. At Pesach, a cry goes up "next year Jerusalem". Furthermore, the Jewish people bought vast tracts of Judea and Samaria from the Arabs who were only to willing to sell their bits of dust. Sir Moses Montefiore was I believe someone who provided the funds many poor Jews to escape persecution and undertake Aliyah. On top of all this, Israel has fought many times for this land in the face of Arab nations who wanted to destroy it; to the victor the spoils I say and to hell with all these international Leftist bodies like the UN, EU and Amnesty Intl. And what on earth all these people are doing sticking their noses into a sovereign nation's affairs is beyond me.

Perhaps these Jewish conspiracy theorists would be better of viewing world affairs objectively, rather than through the prism of the Guardian, Independent or BBC.

[Englebert]

How sad that this thread has degenerated into an open season on Jews, but quite predictible given the current climate of anti-Semitism. I wonder if this and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists will reflect badly on HPC.........?

Anyways, Mr. Sledgehead has put himself on the outer fringes of respectability with his comments - even Jordan and Egypt have recognised Israel's right to exist, something which many here don't appear to share.

Israel is an integral part of the Jewish people, both as a mental and physical entity. It is the Jewih people's Biblical birthright to return to the land of our fathers, though in this world religion is sneered upon. At Pesach, a cry goes up "next year Jerusalem". Furthermore, the Jewish people bought vast tracts of Judea and Samaria from the Arabs who were only to willing to sell their bits of dust. Sir Moses Montefiore was I believe someone who provided the funds many poor Jews to escape persecution and undertake Aliyah. On top of all this, Israel has fought many times for this land in the face of Arab nations who wanted to destroy it; to the victor the spoils I say and to hell with all these international Leftist bodies like the UN, EU and Amnesty Intl. And what on earth all these people are doing sticking their noses into a sovereign nation's affairs is beyond me.

Perhaps these Jewish conspiracy theorists would be better of viewing world affairs objectively, rather than through the prism of the Guardian, Independent or BBC.

To be fair, the conspiracy theorists on this site don't scare me. These guys do though:

http://www.prophecyupdate.com/

Edited July 26, 2006 by The Dude

[Realistbear]

Deserves repeating especially the red, bold bit : yes you stupid children who are too young to know dick, the IRA killed 5 in attempting to ANNIHILATE THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT - IE THE STATE OF GREAT BRITAIN.

Did we immediately respond with 150mm self-propelled guns, striking at Ireland who clearly allowed IRA to move across the Ireland / N. Ireland border? Did we move into the Shankhill Road, home of Irish Republican extremists and flatten the place with bulldozers? Did we respond with massive air assaults on Dublin International airport?

Did we threaten the US lest they ceased their fundraising for the IRA?

Were we a lilly-livered nation at the time?

The answer to all three is of course NO. Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister of the time, who came within an inch of being murdered by the IRA and who took the UK to war over the Faulkland Islands with Argentina realised that turning the clock back to the days of the Black & Tan was no way to behave in a modern world.

The difference of course is that to fundamentalist Jewish Israelis (the sort of people who reckon they need to move to a terrestrial location to be closer to god - how stupid is that?) this is not a "modern world": it is simply "god's world". For them and indeed all other religious freaks, there is no such thing as "progress" or "world harmony", because all this means nothing in the face of "god".

Here's more on the IRA. I'd love somebody to explain to me why, if shelling Lebanon is fine, shelling Ireland could not also be justified:

Bush greets terrorists, shuns victims, Gerry Adams Yes, Michael Howard No -

London, 1993

If you have trouble connecting with this "history lesson", check out the pictures of victims in that thread. Attrocities are attrocities no matter when they occur and our knee jerk reaction, as animals, is to demand retribution. As humans we must seek a higher goal.

Modern day Isreal is not "religious" but extremely secular. There are a few religious groups that would like to see WW3 and the removal of Muslim paraphenalia from Jewish soil but the mainstream wants political survival. It is the avowed goal of all extreme Muslims to wipe Israel off the map in accordance with the Koran's teaching on the way to deal with infidels. The Hezbollah make no secret of that goal.

The IRA wanted to take over the North and remove British Rule. The IRA did not want to blow England, Scotland and Wales "off the map" as part of some religiously inspired mania or obedience to an Irish Koran. However, their fight for the North meant that, in their view, anyone who supported British rule was a target. IMO, the UK would like to have seen the back of NI but for the majority vote of the N Irish to remain, for financial reasons, within the UK. I wonder if they would vote the same way today given the South's HPI-MEW wealth?

Israel, on the other had, is fighting for its right to exist. If they did not defend themselves they would have ceased to be a nation within a year of their return to the land in 1948. The Jewish-Arab war dates back to around 2000 B.C. and is basically a land dispute that began over inheritance rights between different tribes. The war continues today for much the same reasons. Religion is the excuse but land is the reason. The Irish wars were much the same--Protestant vs. Catholic with neigher side having much to do with church other than attending funerals. Celtic vs. Rangers etc etc.

[Guest wrongmove]

Modern day Isreal is not "religious" but extremely secular.

At last ! I agree with RB on something. Isreal is not a Jewish state in the religious sense of the world, just in the racial sense. Most Isrealies are secular.

[shermanator]

At last ! I agree with RB on something. Isreal is not a Jewish state in the religious sense of the world, just in the racial sense. Most Isrealies are secular.

Correct. You just try setting up a Church, Synagogue or Hindu Temple in Saudi Arabia or any other of these Arab states

[Sledgehead]

Mr. Sledgehead has put himself on the outer fringes of respectability with his comments -

....I say and to hell with all these international Leftist bodies like ... Amnesty Intl.

Yeah, like I give a rat's **** about your hegemonic definition of respectability!

[tahoma]

The IRA wanted to take over the North and remove British Rule. The IRA did not want to blow England, Scotland and Wales "off the map" as part of some religiously inspired mania or obedience to an Irish Koran.

Classic 'Chewbacca Defense.'

Sledge's point was that when attacked, our government did not lash out like some spoilt child.

It does not matter exactly why were were attacked. The point is we did not respond with wholesale slaughter dressed up as 'defense', with accusations of anti-semitism for anyone who questions it.

Edited July 26, 2006 by tahoma

[Sledgehead]

You just try setting up a Church, Synagogue or Hindu Temple in Saudi Arabia or any other of these Arab states

Why?