athom Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 I'm still doing my bit for consumerism, buying a generator, petrol cans, extension leads, paraffin, LED lanterns. Its all on the up and up. Everyone in the world is going to be spending on these things soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, Twenty Something said: Tonight’s radical left wing post is brought to you by the letter S for Stalin, and the number 0 for the number of times socialism has worked. Worked brilliantly in the UK after WW2 for most you daft child. The key isn't to eradicate socialism or capitalism. Doing that does either end up with a Stalin type (socialism into communism) or a Hitler type (nationalism into fascism). One is ever so good at rowing back the other though, and that's exactly what moves us forward - a little bit right, a little bit left etc. One direction is just an endless, pointless spin in a circle. (See the past 40 years as we have reduced socialism in the UK a hell of a lot). I thought they taught children this at school tbh? Have state schools stopped teaching basic politics and political history, or did some of you lot drop out of school before you were 12 or something? Edited October 9, 2022 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msi Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, byron78 said: Have state schools stopped teaching basic politics and political history, or did some of you lot drop out of school before you were 12 or something? I'm afraid they did under the guise of not 'indoctrinating' kids - read for 'Not teaching them to open their eyes and see Tories for the **** they are'. When I did my time in HE, I rolled my eyes at the hooray henry types spouting the tosh they'd been taught about Socialism killing so many and how Capitalism was wonderful. Things got awkward when I asked them to define either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, msi said: I'm afraid they did under the guise of not 'indoctrinating' kids - read for 'Not teaching them to open their eyes and see Tories for the **** they are'. When I did my time in HE, I rolled my eyes at the hooray henry types spouting the tosh they'd been taught about Socialism killing so many and how Capitalism was wonderful. Things got awkward when I asked them to define either. I don't understand it. I had an elite education that cost my father a small fortune. I was surrounded by hooray Henrys. I almost certainly was one and still know plenty (and many are absolutely lovely btw). I was taught the difference, why both socialism and capitalism were important (and how our smart British mix of both always beat the binary sorts... the Stalins and the Hitlers, etc). Has it really been suppressed in schools like this? I always thought it was just Russian disinformation (Putin obviously doesn't want his own masses rising, but it does seem to bleed heavily into the American Libitarian movement - AKA, fighting for people's right to be poor, sick, thicker than a submarine door, AND heavily armed). Edited October 9, 2022 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) The way I look at things is that capitalism is fine as long as the system provides the basics for everyone at reasonable cost. What is so wrong with having basic social housing available to all and if someone wants a better house in a better area, they can buy one? I don't care what anyone says, basic human needs should be available at reasonable cost to everyone, but for the past 20 years this has not been the case. Fooking disgraceful what's been going on imo. Edited October 9, 2022 by Social Justice League Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty Something Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, byron78 said: Worked brilliantly in the UK after WW2 for most you daft child. The key isn't to eradicate socialism or capitalism. Doing that does either end up with a Stalin type (socialism into communism) or a Hitler type (nationalism into fascism). One is ever so good at rowing back the other though, and that's exactly what moves us forward - a little bit right, a little bit left etc. One direction is just an endless, pointless spin in a circle. (See the past 40 years as we have reduced socialism in the UK a hell of a lot). I thought they taught children this at school tbh? Have state schools stopped teaching basic politics and political history, or did some of you lot drop out of school before you were 12 or something? That made me chuckle to be fair. Typed in the sort of sneering condescending tone that one encounters in the middle of the guardian comments section. As Thatcher once said, the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money. Probably why it worked so well just after the war when the country needed rebuilding both literally and metaphorically. Eventually turned us into the sick man of Europe though hey… Edited October 9, 2022 by Twenty Something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, Social Justice League said: The way I look at things is that capitalism is fine as long as the system provides the basics for everyone at reasonable cost. What is so wrong with having basic social housing available to all and if someone wants a better house in a better area, they can buy one? I don't care what anyone says, basic human needs should be available at reasonable cost to everyone, but for the past 20 years this has not been the case. Fooking disgraceful what's been going on imo. Completely agree. It has to feel like progress. Productivity and economic data can go to the moon, but if the majority of the people living in a country are getting poorer whilst this happens (or at least, the majority are having to get into montrous amounts of debt just to live how the generation before them did WITHOUT the debt mountain), how is that progress? Progress for whom? Not most people bloody living in the UK that's for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Twenty Something said: That made me chuckle to be fair. Typed in the sort of sneering condescending tone that one encounters in the middle of the guardian comments section. As Thatcher once sense, the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money. Probably why it worked so well just after the war when the country needed rebuilding both literally and metaphorically. Eventually turned us into the sick man of Europe though hey… The country has never been more indebted than it was post WW2. And, in case you've missed it, we are kind of back to being Europe's sick man. Weird that. (And yes, I was being condescending. You come off like a bloody halfwit who has had a copy of The Spectator rammed up his arse.) Simplistic and binary ideas are fine if that's all you can understand. Each to their own. Edited October 9, 2022 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 27 minutes ago, Social Justice League said: The way I look at things is that capitalism is fine as long as the system provides the basics for everyone at reasonable cost. What is so wrong with having basic social housing available to all and if someone wants a better house in a better area, they can buy one? I don't care what anyone says, basic human needs should be available at reasonable cost to everyone, but for the past 20 years this has not been the case. Fooking disgraceful what's been going on imo. This is actually what's happening. Welfare is paying people's rent. It's paying their shortfall in earnings via tax credits (that wasn't even possible until the last 15 years or so). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said: This is actually what's happening. Welfare is paying people's rent. It's paying their shortfall in earnings via tax credits (that wasn't even possible until the last 15 years or so). It would be much more straight forward to just build council housing and rent them out to the millions of people who do work but can't afford the current ludicrous prices to buy or rent off some btl leech. Ffs Ikea have got a flat pack housing solution that they could throw up easily, so where the feck are they? Nowhere is the answer because vi's want to keep prices inflated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 17 minutes ago, Social Justice League said: It would be much more straight forward to just build council housing and rent them out to the millions of people who do work but can't afford the current ludicrous prices to buy or rent off some btl leech. Ffs Ikea have got a flat pack housing solution that they could throw up easily, so where the feck are they? Nowhere is the answer because vi's want to keep prices inflated. Oh I hear you. The housing crisis in the UK is an entirely manufactured one. It could be so much more organized, but...for reasons it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said: This is actually what's happening. Welfare is paying people's rent. It's paying their shortfall in earnings via tax credits (that wasn't even possible until the last 15 years or so). That's capitalism. That's not socialism. The state aren't redistributing money to help the poor by taking from the rich (literally my experience living under old socialist Labour governments - largely used to build homes etc). The state are redistributing more and more from the old "middle" classes up to banks (via landlords, via their tenants who get said tax credits). Yes, some landlords will own outright (so it's redistribution to an asset class), but it's largely not about our old social class system now. It's about a global financial class that sits atop all that (and is tolerated because its values align with our old top of the class system elites more than to the old "tax the rich" system ever did. Funny that!) I think the reason it's important to define what is happening properly is that the problem is largely hiding behind a shield of pretending this is all socialism when it isn't (see Putin telling his own that they really are off fighting Nazis in Ukraine, etc). That's classic and as old as the hills tbh (I think Machiavelli, but may well be wrong). I try to point it out to many on here, and their reaction is usually to be triggered some textbook antisocialism rant (which does sort of confirm they are parroting something from somewhere that has started to get a bit weird and culty). Edited October 9, 2022 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 Doesn't capitalism just mean getting ahead in life, when spoken of in general terms? People will still want to get ahead even in the absence of money. I don't fancy armed robbery, or getting closer to a dictatorship, as the 2 ends of the see saw. So that leaves us with using force and rules to keep us in the middle doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, 24gray24 said: Doesn't capitalism just mean getting ahead in life, when spoken of in general terms? People will still want to get ahead even in the absence of money. I don't fancy armed robbery, or getting closer to a dictatorship, as the 2 ends of the see saw. So that leaves us with using force and rules to keep us in the middle doesn't it? I think what I have seen is money become something people equate with life more and more. It's hard to explain really. Money and capital seems to be getting used in the way the church used to get used to control people. Does that make sense? So yes, I do think it's changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero120 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, byron78 said: money and capital I think you mean debt. We have neither money or capital anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, byron78 said: I think what I have seen is money become something people equate with life more and more. It's hard to explain really. Money and capital seems to be getting used in the way the church used to get used to control people. Does that make sense? So yes, I do think it's changed. Well, you can't blame them really. They keep getting told they need to hand over more and more bits of paper to get the necessities of life, food, water, shelter etc. And they can't survive without them. So they don't have much choice. But... the young have realised its playing Monopoly with the houses all owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Social Justice League said: The way I look at things is that capitalism is fine as long as the system provides the basics for everyone at reasonable cost. What is so wrong with having basic social housing available to all and if someone wants a better house in a better area, they can buy one? I don't care what anyone says, basic human needs should be available at reasonable cost to everyone, but for the past 20 years this has not been the case. Fooking disgraceful what's been going on imo. The problem is slavery just about qualifies. Very basic housing. Very reasonable cost. And that's what you end up with if you expect the rich to provide you with the basic necessities of life at reasonable cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, 24gray24 said: The problem is slavery just about qualifies. Very basic housing. Very reasonable cost. And that's what you end up with if you expect the rich to provide you with the basic necessities of life at reasonable cost. Nothing to do with the rich. Plenty of wasted taxation could be used to build cheap properties, just like in the 1950's. Land is the issue and always has been in the UK. It's a rotten society but then that's human beings for you. Scum of the earth. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Social Justice League said: Nothing to do with the rich. Plenty of wasted taxation could be used to build cheap properties, just like in the 1950's. Land is the issue and always has been in the UK. It's a rotten society but then that's human beings for you. Scum of the earth. 😉 The rich own the land. Their aim is always to turn all essentials of life into monopolies. You cant stop them by voting for more hand outs from taxation, because they get control of government from doing the paying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, 24gray24 said: The rich own the land. Their aim is always to turn all essentials of life into monopolies. You cant stop them by voting for more hand outs from taxation, because they get control of government from doing the paying. The thing is, imo no one owns land because everyone is just passing through. Most people will only have 100 years on this planet, if they are lucky. Wtf does everyone 'own' when they are put in a wooden box? Humans can construct any old bullsh1t to try and convince themselves otherwise and talk about passing land down, but the truth is, everyone is on their way to the graveyard. Some think they 'own' but everyone is just gone in a flash by the universal timeclock. What most spout is total bullsheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 49 minutes ago, 24gray24 said: Well, you can't blame them really. They keep getting told they need to hand over more and more bits of paper to get the necessities of life, food, water, shelter etc. And they can't survive without them. So they don't have much choice. But... the young have realised its playing Monopoly with the houses all owned. Yes, you're very right. It's a feedback loop (and not accidental). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 14 minutes ago, Social Justice League said: The thing is, imo no one owns land because everyone is just passing through. Most people will only have 100 years on this planet, if they are lucky. Wtf does everyone 'own' when they are put in a wooden box? Humans can construct any old bullsh1t to try and convince themselves otherwise and talk about passing land down, but the truth is, everyone is on their way to the graveyard. Some think they 'own' but everyone is just gone in a flash by the universal timeclock. What most spout is total bullsheet. They own it because you can't take it off them by force. The alternative is to charge capital gains on sales of land at 70% and charge council tax on land not used for farming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 37 minutes ago, 24gray24 said: The rich own the land. Half of the land in this country is owned by fewer people than you get at a typical Crystal Palace match. Has been for ages as well tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 The poor will spoil it for the rich....choices, spend your cash with those that have already got plenty or buy for less from those that need it most..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, 24gray24 said: They own it because you can't take it off them by force. The alternative is to charge capital gains on sales of land at 70% and charge council tax on land not used for farming. They own feck all. Just another imagination of the human mind, like placing value in fiat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.