Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths gripping Britain is only tip of the iceberg:

[Arpeggio]

1 hour ago, Pmax2020 said:

It’s not a game; you categorically know that was a lie. 

Nope.

Someone gave a personal anecdote.

you replied:

.....and I explained how your post was an example of something I had already said.

Now you are basically saying the same thing in a different way, while telling others what they think too.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Arpeggio

[notnow]

This excess deaths due to breathing suppressants killing patients will all pan out in the coming years, but one thing is clear, doctors and nurses did not suddenly start ill treating patients en mass.

However, did they follow the NICE  instructions "to administer breathing suppressant drugs  even if this was detrimental to the patient?"  Almost certainly.

This will all come back to Nice instructions in the UK, and it will almost certainly be decided  after a 100 million pound investigation that the NICE treatment recommendations  were badly written and misleading, and that nobody was responsible for this error. The NICE instructions may well have been a cut and paste job from USA

Watch Dr. John Campbell. He explains it all.  The issue is about the later covid deaths, that were a milder disease, when deaths still spiked due to over use of breathing suppressants.

If you are on the fence about future boosters, again Dr. John Campbell is the voice of reason.

IMHO of course.

[Arpeggio]

Dec 2022:  FDA approves Roche’s Actemra for treatment of COVID-19 in hospitalised adults

https://www.actemra.com/   The most common side effects of ACTEMRA include:

• upper respiratory tract infections (common cold, sinus infections)

[shlomo]

34 minutes ago, notnow said:

This excess deaths due to breathing suppressants killing patients will all pan out in the coming years, but one thing is clear, doctors and nurses did not suddenly start ill treating patients en mass.

However, did they follow the NICE  instructions "to administer breathing suppressant drugs  even if this was detrimental to the patient?"  Almost certainly.

This will all come back to Nice instructions in the UK, and it will almost certainly be decided  after a 100 million pound investigation that the NICE treatment recommendations  were badly written and misleading, and that nobody was responsible for this error. The NICE instructions may well have been a cut and paste job from USA

Watch Dr. John Campbell. He explains it all.  The issue is about the later covid deaths, that were a milder disease, when deaths still spiked due to over use of breathing suppressants.

If you are on the fence about future boosters, again Dr. John Campbell is the voice of reason.

IMHO of course.

Hi, it’s Anna in Virginia. I’m going to tell you a tale about a pharmaceutical company that sold a potentially dangerous drug and what it knew 40 years ago that may have saved lives, but first…

The heartburn tablet Zantac was on the market for almost 40 years. As drugs go, it was a raging success. It raked in billions in sales for its creator, a company that now goes by GSK.

All the while GSK, just Glaxo back then, had a 10-page report from 1982 somewhere in its files outlining an experiment that found Zantac’s active ingredient, ranitidine, under certain conditions could form a probable carcinogen called NDMA. Glaxo executives in the UK didn’t share this with their American counterparts in the US as they gunned for Food and Drug Administration approval in the early 1980s. They also didn’t share it with the FDA. 

So, how do I know about it, you ask? My colleagues Susan Berfield, Jef Feeley and I got access to thousands of pages of court documents, including depositions and studies that have never been made public before, as well as drug applications and meeting transcripts at the FDA to trace Zantac’s hidden history. 

Read our story here.

The 10-page report, now known as the Tanner study, wasn’t the only sign something might be wrong with the pills. Throughout the years, GSK downplayed signs Zantac could degrade before its expiration date was up — which was a recipe for impurities, potentially harmful ones, to form. But it wasn’t GSK, or even the FDA, that initially revealed the problems with Zantac, and a number of generic competitors. It was an independent lab called Valisure that does drug testing. It found the NDMA in 2019 and alerted the FDA that scientists at the lab believed the problem was the ranitidine itself. It was degrading to create NDMA. Only then did the recalls start.

The FDA conducted its own research and eventually forced Zantac off the market in 2020. But that isn’t the end.

More than 70,000 lawsuits have been filed in state courts against the company by people who took Zantac and generic versions of it. The first one to go to trial, set in the California Superior Court in Alameda County, may start as early as this month. 

The real kicker for me is that the pharmaceutical company Sanofi, which now owns the rights to sell Zantac in the US, has found an odd way to bring the pills back to drugstore shelves. The drugmaker first attempted to see if it could somehow safely continue to use ranitidine in Zantac, but that didn’t work.

So instead, Sanofi began selling non-prescription Zantac in 2021 that doesn’t contain any of the key ingredient that defined the drug. It’s instead now made with famotidine, the active ingredient in competitor Pepcid. So if your local Walgreens happens to run out of Pepcid, now you know where to find a secret stash, just grab a box of Zantac. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-02-17/what-gsk-didn-t-say-about-zantac-for-40-years

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by shlomo

[Bob8]

9 hours ago, Goat said:

So you really do think that half the doctors in the NHS morphed into Harold Shipman, that's "speshial".

This is oddly where I can understand the likes of Kate Shemirani.

For their conspiracy nonsense to make sense, doctors, nurses and scientists around the world must be upto something comparable to the holocaust for reasons that are even more obscure. Yet, because that is clearly stupid, they can only hint at it. When someone like Kate Shemirani says it out loud, there is outrage and she is disowned.

Really, implying doctors, nurses and scientists around the world must be upto something comparable to the holocaust should be considered rude and in contrast to the thin skinned and prissy nature of the conspiracy posters on here.

[Goat]

9 hours ago, anonguest said:

WTF are you smoking?!  Don't be so bloody naive.

Do you have any idea how many doctors get suspended/'struck off' each year?!

When was the last time doctors went on strike when a doctor got fired or struck off?

WTF are you smoking?

Sure, doctors get struck off from time to time for doing things they shouldn't be doing, like having sex with their patients, or being grossly incompetent, but I'll guarantee you that none have ever been struck off in this country for refusing an order to commit mass murder.

As to the rest, your posting style seems to be to spam as much s*** as possible at the forum and then get abusive at anyone who questions any of it, and as it now turns out you can't tell the difference between the SS and the NHS you really are not worth talking to.

[Goat]

9 hours ago, notnow said:

This excess deaths due to breathing suppressants killing patients will all pan out in the coming years, but one thing is clear, doctors and nurses did not suddenly start ill treating patients en mass.

However, did they follow the NICE  instructions "to administer breathing suppressant drugs  even if this was detrimental to the patient?"  Almost certainly.

This will all come back to Nice instructions in the UK, and it will almost certainly be decided  after a 100 million pound investigation that the NICE treatment recommendations  were badly written and misleading, and that nobody was responsible for this error. The NICE instructions may well have been a cut and paste job from USA

Watch Dr. John Campbell. He explains it all.  The issue is about the later covid deaths, that were a milder disease, when deaths still spiked due to over use of breathing suppressants.

If you are on the fence about future boosters, again Dr. John Campbell is the voice of reason.

IMHO of course.

Have you factored in the fact that Midazolam is routinely used on patients who require mechanical ventilation and the effect on breathing is irrelevant since the machine is doing the breathing for them.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Goat

[Goat]

10 hours ago, anonguest said:

You really are being deliberately stupid here OR have cr*p English comprehension skills.

@Bob8 nails it perfectly above, you've clearly decided that doctors and nurses across the world are engaged in a conspiracy that rivals the holocaust, yet even you must realize that sounds utterly stupid, so you're only willing to hint at it.

 

10 hours ago, anonguest said:

Again. I never claimed any direct policy of 'extermination'. I said - in response to your juvenile and naive comment re: Doctors and Harold Shipman - that the large collective of doctors will happily carry out medical policies which, later on in the cold light of day, will be seen to be stupid and/or arguably immoral.

One final point, the only way this makes any sense whatsoever is if doctors have no idea what they are doing and no understanding of the effects of the drugs they are administering.

It's utterly f***ing nuts.

[anonguest]

2 hours ago, Goat said:

@Bob8 nails it perfectly above, you've clearly decided that doctors and nurses across the world are engaged in a conspiracy that rivals the holocaust, yet even you must realize that sounds utterly stupid, so you're only willing to hint at it.

WHERE did I even remotely imply that?

And IF you believe that is what I even remotely said, when I VERY clearly didn't, then you are clearly as stupid as he is!

I SAID VERY CLEARLY, chiming in to your response earlier to someone else supposedly believing all doctors were behaving as Harold Shipman, that your comment was typical/common. Namely that your comment perpetuate the nonsense that doctors are, almost completely, morally superior and better people than the rest of the populace.  I SAID very clearly that doctors are as human as the rest of us - and subject mass psychology and as capable of making mistakes/errors of judgement as much as the rest of us.

By these latest replies you have revealed to me that you are as 'idealogically' set in stone and ignorant of many realities/simple facts as many of the posters here you criticise. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest

[anonguest]

37 minutes ago, Goat said:

One final point, the only way this makes any sense whatsoever is if doctors have no idea what they are doing and no understanding of the effects of the drugs they are administering.

Doctors administer what they are allowed to administer!

IF they stray outside of guidelines they run risk of being disciplined/struck off.  IF the official guidelines, in this case in the early stages of the Covid pandemic, dictated treatment protocols/medications that were ineffective, or even potentially harmful, many (most?) would have been little the wiser. The vast majority of hospital doctors/GPs/etc. rarely acquire specialised/advanced pharmacology education beyond what is taught to them in medical school - that is what there is a completely separate discipline of 'pharmacology' to be studied. Most such doctors are also rarely up to the minute with the latest medical research/developments that might that may well constantly and rapidly come to light in a fast moving/developing situation such as the Covid pandemic. They are simply to busy to spend all their time reading/keeping abreast with yesterdays/last weeks latest findings. THAT is what the regulatory bodies are also meant to be doing for them - and pass on guidelines based on decisions made by people even more qualified than front line A&E and ICU doctors.

37 minutes ago, Goat said:

It's utterly f***ing nuts.

Yes. It is nuts that someone who appears, at first glance from their writings, to be erudite can write such stupid comments.

IF you had read my original posts properly, rather than going off at half cock, AND not been so naive/ignorant of the realities of the medical profession then you would have understood this.

[Goat]

Just now, anonguest said:

Doctors administer what they are allowed to administer!

IF they stray outside of guidelines they run risk of being disciplined/struck off.  IF the official guidelines, in this case in the early stages of the Covid pandemic, dictated treatment protocols/medications that were ineffective, or even potentially harmful, many (most?) would have been little the wiser. The vast majority of hospital doctors/GPs/etc. rarely acquire specialised/advanced pharmacology education beyond what is taught to them in medical school - that is what there is a completely separate discipline of 'pharmacology' to be studied. Most such doctors are also rarely up to the minute with the latest medical research/developments that might that may well constantly and rapidly come to light in a fast moving/developing situation such as the Covid pandemic. They are simply to busy to spend all their time reading/keeping abreast with yesterdays/last weeks latest findings. THAT is what the regulatory bodies are also meant to be doing for them - and pass on guidelines based on decisions made by people even more qualified than front line A&E and ICU doctors.

Yes. It is nuts that someone who appears, at first glance from their writings, to be erudite can write such stupid comments.

IF you had read my original posts properly, rather than going off at half cock, AND not been so naive/ignorant of the realities of the medical profession then you would have understood this.

Okay, so you're clearly a nutter who thinks he's much cleverer than anyone else, and you get abusive when anyone points out that you really, really are not, so I'm not going to waste much time on you.

Your position seems to be that orders have come down from above for doctors to "throw their patients off the boat" and they're all willingly gone along with this, despite the fact that even the most junior, newly qualified, doctor would instantly recognize that what they were doing was committing murder.

And to top it all, by some miracle this instruction to commit mass murder has never found its way into the mainstream press.

Yeah, let's think about that.......................................... Okay:

 

[anonguest]

3 minutes ago, Goat said:

Okay, so you're clearly a nutter who thinks he's much cleverer than anyone else

Well, I'm clearly cleverer than you!

You're clearly to stupid to understand, methinks very possibly deliberately so, anything I have written in the last few posts.

It's sufficient for me to be confident that there will be enough other readers/visitors here who will read what I have written and clearly understand the specific point being made - which was nothing to do with conspiracy of doctors colluding in criminal acts.

 

[anonguest]

29 minutes ago, Goat said:

Okay, so you're clearly a nutter who thinks he's much cleverer than anyone else, and you get abusive when anyone points out that you really, really are not, so I'm not going to waste much time on you.

This is also a bit laughable coming from you.

Witness, for example, your recent stubborn adherence/efforts to promote your 'theory' to explain/dismiss away recent rise in excess deaths - by way of population size change adjustments - despite others here pointing out perfectly reasonable flaws in it. 

Do you not think for one moment that there are legions of significantly more mathematically skilled data scientists/epidemiologists/etc. (i.e. cleverer people than you) who have not thought of this and explored it already?  And would have published the same sort of arguments as you did - had there been any merit to it.

Yet, I haven't seen any such independent research claims of this as being the explanation for much of the supposed excess mortality being seen. IF your 'theory' were a remotely significant contributory factor we would have read of it in the media by now.

But you're obviously someone who thinks himself cleverer than anyone else and has discovered an explanation of excess deaths that no else has!

Maybe I'm wrong? I'm happy for you to point to me any such research publications that effectively describe your 'population size change' theory as the cause of recent rise in excess deaths.

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest

[anonguest]

1 hour ago, Goat said:

Your position seems to be that orders have come down from above for doctors to "throw their patients off the boat" and they're all willingly gone along with this, despite the fact that even the most junior, newly qualified, doctor would instantly recognize that what they were doing was committing murder.

No!

My 'position' was simply that your flippant comment to someone else, de facto accusing them of implying most doctors of being 'Harold Shipmans', was both stupid and founded in the naive and irrational stance, shown by much of the public, of collectively holding doctors in higher esteem than they do most others (i.e. doctors as 'respected' individuals).  And I explained clearly why this blanket de facto automatic holding doctors in high esteem is not as rational as people think.

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest

[Bob8]

30 minutes ago, Goat said:

Okay, so you're clearly a nutter who thinks he's much cleverer than anyone else, and you get abusive when anyone points out that you really, really are not, so I'm not going to waste much time on you.

Your position seems to be that orders have come down from above for doctors to "throw their patients off the boat" and they're all willingly gone along with this, despite the fact that even the most junior, newly qualified, doctor would instantly recognize that what they were doing was committing murder.

And to top it all, by some miracle this instruction to commit mass murder has never found its way into the mainstream press.

Yeah, let's think about that.......................................... Okay:

 

Yes. This keeps happening.

We had @Rupert the Rubbish, @17 Year Veteran other doctors and scientists on here thinking people were actually thinking and open and that the people mocking the tin-foil hatters should be nice and patient. Then they realise that mocking is actually correct.

I have more respect for Kate Shemirani than the snivilling we see on this thread.

[Goat]

24 minutes ago, anonguest said:

Witness, for example, your recent stubborn adherence/efforts to promote your 'theory' to explain/dismiss away recent rise in excess deaths - by way of population size change adjustments - despite others here pointing out perfectly reasonable flaws in it. 

Do you not think for one moment that there are legions of significantly more mathematically skilled data scientists/epidemiologists/etc. (i.e. cleverer people than you) who have not thought of this and explored it already?  And would have published the same sort of arguments as you did - had there been any merit to it.

Yes, they work for the ONS and have come to exactly the same conclusion.

[Goat]

12 minutes ago, anonguest said:

No!

My 'position' was simply that your flippant comment to someone else, of them de facto accusing most doctors of being 'Harold Shipmans', was both stupid and founded in the naive and irrational stance, shown by much of the public, of collectively holding doctors in higher esteem than they do most others (i.e. doctors as 'respected' individuals).  And I explained clearly why this blanket de facto automatic holding doctors in high esteem is not as rational as people think.

What you fail to understand is that your theory rests on the assumption that all doctors are mindless robots who unthinkingly carry out whatever instructions they are given from above without protest, without that assumption your theory crumbles to dust.

Your assumption is so absurd and divorced from reality, it no longer warrants serious discussion.

I'm afraid you've jumped the shark mate, I have some respect for the anti-vax brigade, just a bit, but you've drifted off into full on tin foil hat territory, so the only proper response is to just laugh at you.

[nightowl]

1 hour ago, Goat said:

@Bob8 nails it perfectly above, you've clearly decided that doctors and nurses across the world are engaged in a conspiracy that rivals the holocaust, yet even you must realize that sounds utterly stupid, so you're only willing to hint at it.

Not quite, as Bob perfectly emptomises the interpreting any comment originating in mistakes, confusion, ard limited understanding as conspiracy.  Again it's that idea of portraying the opposition in a light that's more convenient for themselves. Keep seeing it over and over again like clockwork 😏

[anonguest]

14 minutes ago, Goat said:

your theory rests on the assumption that all doctors are mindless robots who unthinkingly carry out whatever instructions they are given from above without protest, without that assumption your theory crumbles to dust.

WHAT F*CKING THEORY?

WHERE did I even remotely claim doctors are mindless robots? PLEASE point to text/passage that EVEN REMOTELY asserts that.

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest

[anonguest]

30 minutes ago, Goat said:

Yes, they work for the ONS and have come to exactly the same conclusion.

For the benefit of the hard of reading...

I CLEARLY said INDEPENDENT research (i.e. from universities/academics/etc. not tied/linked to the government).

And, in any event, the ONS have not so far as I am aware presented a formal case/report, based on your reasoning, to explain away the excess deaths being seen of late.  You would think, given the now evident public interest of late, that they would have published something along the lines that you did.

But they haven't?

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest

[Goat]

10 minutes ago, anonguest said:

For the benefit of the hard of reading...

I CLEARLY said INDEPENDENT research (i.e. from universities/academics/etc. not tied/linked to the government).

And, in any event, the ONS have not so far as I am aware presented a formal case/report, based on your reasoning, to explain away the excess deaths being seen of late.  You would think, given the now evident public interest of late, that they would have published something along the lines that you did.

But they haven't?

 

Monthly mortality analysis, England and Wales: December 2022

For England, the ASMR for 2022 (948.9 deaths per 100,000 people) was statistically significantly lower than most years since our data time series started in 2001. This is except for 2019, which was significantly lower, and 2014, which was not significantly different than 2022.

And if you don't like the source, tough.

[anonguest]

25 minutes ago, Goat said:

Monthly mortality analysis, England and Wales: December 2022

For England, the ASMR for 2022 (948.9 deaths per 100,000 people) was statistically significantly lower than most years since our data time series started in 2001. This is except for 2019, which was significantly lower, and 2014, which was not significantly different than 2022.

And if you don't like the source, tough.

Again, you are just simply not reading what I am saying - and so needlessly wasting your time.

A source/brief single data statement is NOT a formal report. Even you presented more detail and hypothesis than that to support your hypothesis/explanation for explaining excess deaths.  Stating the data value needs to be accompanied with detail as to methodology for how they got the ASMR they claim (e.g. adjustments/corrections/assumptions made). Otherwise it's just a number on it's own.

When researchers report the distance from the Earth to the Moon they explain how they got the number they did. They don't just present the number and expect everyone to accept it as is.

I also reiterate my use of the words independent research.  I really don't understand what bit about those words you don't understand.

Cite me someone else other than the ONS who has published something along the lines of your hypothesis, to explain away the recent rise in excess deaths.

There aren't any such reports/claims???  Well then, you have obviously thought of something that no one else anywhere has - and so you must clearly be "cleverer than anyone else"!

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, nightowl said:

Not quite, as Bob perfectly emptomises the interpreting any comment originating in mistakes, confusion, ard limited understanding as conspiracy.  Again it's that idea of portraying the opposition in a light that's more convenient for themselves. Keep seeing it over and over again like clockwork 😏

Mate, a few points.

I have direct experience in many aspects that people on here do not understand. It is perfectly reasonable that they do not understand them, but to directly reject any learning there are only a few options; a major character defect rendinring them pretty worthless people, that they are rather retarded or they are wrapped up in a conspiracy mindset.

I consider that of the three options:

1) Major character defect
2) Retarded
3) Conspiracy mindset

...which would you prefer? I am going well out of my way to be generous to you, despite it being a little dishonest. To complain about this geerosity is childish (1) or retarded (2).

[Goat]

1 hour ago, anonguest said:

Again, you are just simply not reading what I am saying - and so needlessly wasting your time.

A source/brief single data statement is NOT a formal report. Even you presented more detail and hypothesis than that to support your hypothesis/explanation for explaining excess deaths.  Stating the data value needs to be accompanied with detail as to methodology for how they got the ASMR they claim (e.g. adjustments/corrections/assumptions made). Otherwise it's just a number on it's own.

When researchers report the distance from the Earth to the Moon they explain how they got the number they did. They don't just present the number and expect everyone to accept it as is.

I also reiterate my use of the words independent research.  I really don't understand what bit about those words you don't understand.

Cite me someone else other than the ONS who has published something along the lines of your hypothesis, to explain away the recent rise in excess deaths.

There aren't any such reports/claims???  Well then, you have obviously thought of something that no one else anywhere has - and so you must clearly be "cleverer than anyone else"!

You don't like the source, tough, the fact is the ONS agree with me that the observed excess mortality is a function of population ageing.

And why would anyone be doing "independent research" to duplicate work already done by the ONS.

[anonguest]

24 minutes ago, Goat said:

You don't like the source, tough, the fact is the ONS agree with me that the observed excess mortality is a function of population ageing.

Where has the ONS explicitly stated that observed excess mortality is a function of population ageing?

 

24 minutes ago, Goat said:

And why would anyone be doing "independent research" to duplicate work already done by the ONS.

 

And you clearly have no comprehension of the utter idiocy of that end statement.

Edited February 18, 2023 by anonguest