Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Staffsknot said: No those are daft examples of someone trying to go to extremes to make a point. If you go the extreme other way there should be no A&E as people should be free to die of their stupidity too. Its a similar level of stupid extreme Pushing daft extremes does your argument no credit at all Opting out of the NHS would not be a daft extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, Shrink Proof said: Yes, all it would need is a database for this. With annual audits to see if people had died, changed their minds, etc. And a checking system to confirm their status on arrival at A&E. And a billing and payment system for those who need to pay. Plus a system for chasing up those who can't/won't pay. Plus extra systems to cover minors and those without the capacity to give valid consent. And extra systems for NHS Trusts to deal practically and legally with those folk claiming that either treatment was denied incorrectly or complications arose from being untreated (that they were never warned of when they signed) or that their consent record was lost in the system, etc., necessitating extra record keeping and paperwork by NHS staff. All seamlessly compliant across 4 health services (health care is devolved) run by 4 administrations with different political priorities. Sounds simple enough... Needs checking before A&E as the ambulance staff shouldn't treat them either - its opt out remember. We now need some form of ID to check against... but they haven't been compelled to carry a form of ID... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: You make some good points . The alternative would be the ability to opt out of the NHS completely, something that I would have done years ago had the option been available. I'd prefer just a greater acceptance of the fact that sh1t happens in life among society in general, rather than ever increasingly absurd (and in some cases unacceptably compulsive) measures to reduce it. One of the reasons I find living now rather unpleasant, much more so than living with the (not really all that great difference) in risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Opting out of the NHS would not be a daft extreme. Bruce his examples were ludicrous and at the point of emergency when you are unconscious yes it is in practice. Good samaritan calls ambulance, do they have a compulsory ID to check? Are you just the passenger on the motorbike or the rider? Its just daftness In an emergency you aren't opting out because they can't check you are you until much further down the line. The moment 999 is called you are in the NHS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, Staffsknot said: Needs checking before A&E as the ambulance staff shouldn't treat them either - its opt out remember. We now need some form of ID to check against... but they haven't been compelled to carry a form of ID... How does it work in countries without a compulsory state health scheme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, Staffsknot said: Bruce his examples were ludicrous and at the point of emergency when you are unconscious yes it is in practice. Good samaritan calls ambulance, do they have a compulsory ID to check? Are you just the passenger on the motorbike or the rider? Its just daftness In an emergency you aren't opting out because they can't check you are you until much further down the line. The moment 999 is called you are in the NHS Actually not ludicrous as it's probably how it would work in the NHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 More and more "safety" to save money from the NHS and childrenadults from themselves and yet somehow the NHS keeps costing more and more and more anyway. I rather suspect that wrapping people up in cotton wool for their own good is a drop in the ocean, at least when it comes to accidents (maybe not for smoking, drinking, and eating, and those all get the lifestyle police worked up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: How does it work in countries without a compulsory state health scheme? Then you must abolish the NHS for all. What happens is a private ambulance collects and takes to privste hospital regardless or the A&E is state - ergo an NHS for A&E you haven't opted out of. Bruce this is just getting daft as again its impossible to check your status before the paramedics of the NHS arrive. You can opt out for a procedure but if the NHS is 999 and you are unconcious and lying in the road then 999 is called. Explain how you opt out of being put in said ambulance? Yes the examples of car drivers and pedestrians being compelled to wear crash helmets were stupid extreme examples and no not asked for by NHS so its all daftness to try and prove a point that makes the person making it looking absolutely silly Edited June 29, 2022 by Staffsknot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrink Proof Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 The often forgotten side of this debate is that, with accidents, folk focus on the immediate situation, quite understandably. But a significant number of RTAs result in long term problems. Maybe a point can be made that if you get some cuts and lose a couple of teeth through not wearing a crash helmet/seatbelt/whatever that's your look out, and your responsibility to deal with (emotionally, physically, financially). It's different if the RTA leaves you disabled and/or unable to work and provide for your dependents and/or needing long term care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Staffsknot said: Then you must abolish the NHS for all. What happens is a private ambulance collects and takes to privste hospital regardless or the A&E is state - ergo an NHS for A&E you haven't opted out of. Bruce this is just getting daft as again its impossible to check your status before the paramedics of the NHS arrive Yes the examples of car drivers and pedestrians being compelled to wear crash helmets were stupid extreme examples and no not asked for by NHS so its all daftness to try and prove a point that makes the person making it looking absolutely silly Other countries manage without an all encompassing nanny state, why is it daft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 2 minutes ago, Shrink Proof said: The often forgotten side of this debate is that, with accidents, folk focus on the immediate situation, quite understandably. But a significant number of RTAs result in long term problems. Maybe a point can be made that if you get some cuts and lose a couple of teeth through not wearing a crash helmet/seatbelt/whatever that's your look out, and your responsibility to deal with (emotionally, physically, financially). It's different if the RTA leaves you disabled and/or unable to work and provide for your dependents and/or needing long term care. Hopefully, my advance directive would take care of that eventuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 Just now, Bruce Banner said: Other countries manage without an all encompassing nanny state, why is it daft? Oh dear lord Bruce answer the simple question - how do you opt out of the NHS when unconcious in the road and someone dials 999? You can't. Or are you proposing abolishing NHS for all in which case you are in a massive minority I would say. Lots of countries without health services have vast numbers of people with terrible care as they cannot afford it - America is a good example. I also think this needs to go in another thread if its to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, Shrink Proof said: The often forgotten side of this debate is that, with accidents, folk focus on the immediate situation, quite understandably. But a significant number of RTAs result in long term problems. Maybe a point can be made that if you get some cuts and lose a couple of teeth through not wearing a crash helmet/seatbelt/whatever that's your look out, and your responsibility to deal with (emotionally, physically, financially). It's different if the RTA leaves you disabled and/or unable to work and provide for your dependents and/or needing long term care. Still your responsibility. A civilised society will try to help out. What any society that can legitimately call itself civilised won't do though is keep treating everyone like children in order to avoid that situation arising in the first place. The risks and costs are a much lower price than the nannying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Hopefully, my advance directive would take care of that eventuality. Right so to avoid the compulsion of wearing a helmet then there must be an automatic compulsion to consent to this advanced directive? It would compel you to do other things and so you exchanged one compulsory act for another. Not exactly cutting down here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 2 minutes ago, Staffsknot said: Oh dear lord Bruce answer the simple question - how do you opt out of the NHS when unconcious in the road and someone dials 999? You can't. Or are you proposing abolishing NHS for all in which case you are in a massive minority I would say. Lots of countries without health services have vast numbers of people with terrible care as they cannot afford it - America is a good example. I also think this needs to go in another thread if its to continue. I carry a card pointing to my advance directive which refuses life saving treatment without my express consent in every case, so they shouldn't treat me if unconscious. I do this because I would rather not regain consciousness than do so as a quadriplegic. All of this may seem daft to you but it makes perfect sense to me. The NHS could surely find a way to invoice for the treatment of those who have opted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said: Like Australia, for instance, where it's illegal to ride a pushbike without wearing an approved crash helmet. Enough said. Cycling's greatest snob makes some good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: I carry a card pointing to my advance directive which refuses life saving treatment without my express consent in every case, so they shouldn't treat me if unconscious. I do this because I would rather not regain consciousness than do so as a quadriplegic. All of this may seem daft to you but it makes perfect sense to me. The NHS could surely find a way to invoice for the treatment of those who have opted out. They need to search you to find said card. It won't happen with the paramedics - you are in the NHS until they get you to hospital - sorry that's fact. Your card will also only cover CPR not all care so you haven't opted out of the NHS or care just one form of care. Also Bruce you are compelled to carry that card... a form of ID expressing your wishes so you just consented to being compelled to carry a form of ID. Edited June 29, 2022 by Staffsknot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 NHS or personal responsibility Because this thread needs to go back on topic - if people want an NHS rant I've created a home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, Staffsknot said: They need to search you to find said card. It won't happen with the paramedics - you are in the NHS until they get you to hospital - sorry that's fact. Also Bruce you are compelled to carry that card... a form of ID expressing your wishes so you just consented to being compelled to carry a form of ID. I am not compelled to carry the card, I do so out of choice. If I end up unconscious in an NHS hospital, the existence of my advance directive will soon be discovered and all life prolonging treatment must then cease, unless or until I regain consciousness and consent to it. This is something I've put a lot of thought into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: I am not compelled to carry the card, I do so out of choice. If I end up unconscious in an NHS hospital, the existence of my advance directive will soon be discovered and all life prolonging treatment must then cease, unless or until I regain consciousness and consent to it. This is something I've put a lot of thought into. CPR - not all measures its a DNR - it will only be discovered via medical record or discovery of the card. A member of the public is probably first to arrive and you could be shocked with an AED by them and no reprecussions to them. If you are unconscious but breathing you are then beyond your DNR. Bruce you only opted out of CPR that's all a DNR does and unless its discovered people and paramedics will do it. Now if you are not carrying the card / displaying at home the paramedics are free to treat I'm sorry. So you are compelled if you want the DNR to stand outside of hospital So back to thr motorbike your card means bob all until you get to A&E and they consult your records. They are only compelled to stop on discovery. You got a paramedic you are getting NHS treatment and even discovery only stops resuscitation not other care. If you were revived by a passer by and now a quadraplegic its not done anything for you holding that DNR. Again this is massively off-topic so if you want to go on use the new topic. Edited June 29, 2022 by Staffsknot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msi Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 Boris Johnson 'actively thinking about' third term as PM Coming back on topic, who is thinking this a challenge to his 1922 opponents to change the rules or f*** off ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, msi said: Boris Johnson 'actively thinking about' third term as PM Coming back on topic, who is thinking this a challenge to his 1922 opponents to change the rules or f*** off ? Yes back on topic I think it was a dare. Rumours two Tories soundingbout walking to Labour as fear their seats. Part of the recent intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Staffsknot said: CPR - not all measures its a DNR - it will only be discovered via medical record or discovery of the card. A member of the public is probably first to arrive and you could be shocked with an AED by them and no reprecussions to them. If you are unconscious but breathing you are then beyond your DNR. Bruce you only opted out of CPR that's all a DNR does and unless its discovered people and paramedics will do it. Now if you are not carrying the card / displaying at home the paramedics are free to treat I'm sorry. So you are compelled if you want the DNR to stand outside of hospital So back to thr motorbike your card means bob all until you get to A&E and they consult your records. They are only compelled to stop on discovery. You got a paramedic you are getting NHS treatment and even discovery only stops resuscitation not other care. If you were revived by a passer by and now a quadraplegic its not done anything for you holding that DNR. Again this is massively off-topic so if you want to go on use the new topic. Oh dear Lord. My advance directive forbids all life prolonging treatment without my express permission in every case. Some advance directives may only forbid CPR, but that is not the case with mine! "If I am unconscious, or otherwise unable to give my consent, I refuse all life-sustaining treatment in every situation regardless of the cause or prognosis." Edited June 29, 2022 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 18 minutes ago, Staffsknot said: Yes back on topic I think it was a dare. Rumours two Tories soundingbout walking to Labour as fear their seats. Part of the recent intake. That was on the news yesterday, not specific details though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 7 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Oh dear Lord. My advance directive forbids all life prolonging treatment without my express permission in every case. Some advance directives may only forbid CPR, but that is not the case with mine! "If I am unconscious, or otherwise unable to give my consent, I refuse all life-sustaining treatment in every situation regardless of the cause or prognosis." Which only applies in a hospital Bruce because no paramedic or passerby will see this unless you carry the card. In the context of A&E That is DNACPR - CPR is life sustaining: - ventilation - injection - chest compressions - shocks Again go to the other topic but your directive means bugger all to the passerby who just shocked you with the AED from Tescos. Your RTA and breathing so still go A&E where they provide all non-life sustaining care - you code they let you go, but they do spend hrs trying to set your facial fractures and all other treatments. These are the realities of this daft I don't want to wear a skid lid and I'll sign a card ideas of opting out. You are compelled to carry something to inform others or accept that you ain't going to get what you want outside a hospital. Now let's get back on topic please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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