Banks + Brits = Stupid Houseprices (A Comparison With The Netherlands)

[olde guto]

Just spent 3 weeks in the Netherlands and it confirmed (in my mind) that it's the banks (with a lot of help from the government) and something in the British mentality that has driven the insane HPI we've.

First things first a few factoids:

The Netherlands is a crowded place 400 people/ sq km (260 people/ sq km for the UK)

About 4% of the population are migrants from other EU states (similar, if not higher, % to UK)

Despite this (which according to some are the cause of our woes) houses are still affordable. For around £155,000 (€200,000) it's possible to buy a 100+ sqm 3-4 bedroom house in what look like OK areas of major cities.

Amsterdam

122sqm €195k (£143k) http://www.funda.nl/koop/amsterdam/huis-49758619-uranusstraat-2/

103sqm €185k (£145k) http://www.funda.nl/koop/amsterdam/huis-49512825-saturnusstraat-2/

The Hague (the seat of government)

150sqm! €195k (£151k) http://www.funda.nl/koop/den-haag/huis-49667073-loosduinseweg-719-en-721/

A new build 125sqm €195k (£151k) http://www.funda.nl/koop/den-haag/huis-49683634-vermeerkwartier-bouwnr-4/

You'd probably struggle to buy a house of that size (in a decent looking area) in Luton or Milton Keynes let alone London.

[Guest BillyNI]

Holy shit. I've looked abroad but out in the countryside with a bit more land and to be honest I think most Capital cities in Europe are the same. At some stage this inflation has to break. Doesn't it? I've been thinking this for nearly 10 years, so chances are I'm completely wrong.

[lovepigeon]

Thanks for posting this - I can't believe those prices compared with what is on offer in the SE.

We are going to rent in the UK for another 2 or 3 years and then if nothing changes possibly head to mainland Europe.

Ideal would be a nice city that is not car dominated so Amsterdam would meet a lot of our criteria.

[reddog]

I actually thought the Netherlands had become stupidly expensive. Maybe I was wrong.

[Venger]

Just spent 3 weeks in the Netherlands and it confirmed (in my mind) that it's the banks (with a lot of help from the government) and something in the British mentality that has driven the insane HPI we've.

[...]The Hague (the seat of government)

150sqm! €195k (£151k) http://www.funda.nl/koop/den-haag/huis-49667073-loosduinseweg-719-en-721/

Hope you enjoyed your time over there.

I would need to see more examples and familiarise myself with areas to get a grasp on market over there.

Also thought they had a price issue over there, but some softening a while ago.

Looks like BTLers/LL selling the one above.

INVESTMENT !! For sale is offered in fully let, a non cadastral differentiated ground floor apartment with separate double upper house in the Loosduinseweg at Beeklaan, opposite the entrance of the Apeldoornselaan. Well maintained. Leased to two tenants, total rental € 12,537.24 per year. Number 719: a ground floor apartment of approximately 75 m2 with garden, living / dining room ensuite, clean kitchen, bedroom and bathroom extension and good backyard. Rent € 416.00 per month. Number 721: two-layer upper house in two-and-let.First floor of about 60 m2, with living / dining room ensuite and a side room, kitchen and rear balcony. Rent € € 360.46 per month. (lessee also leases the ground floor and thus occupy two layers). Second floor consists of a front room, back room, neat kitchen and bathroom.approximately 45 m2. Rent € 268.31 per month. Rented out indefinitely. It is unlikely that tenants leave quickly. Well maintained. Transfer of ownership is to take place at Notary De Gier.

..Year Built: 1910

ownership structure: full ownership

-Neither Here Nor There (Bill Bryson) - 1991

[evetsm]

all the vast property bubbles are on crown land ?

[thejaksie]

I can give a bit more insight into this I suspect.the flats above are not in the nicest areas, Amsterdam in the nicer areas are now selling at 6 up to 10k per m2, and the Hague somewhere around 4-5k also in nicer areas. So although cheaper it's not bargain basement by any standard and that is actually not too far off where I'm looking to buy in london commuter belt (perhaps eventually!) with prices at gbp 4-5k m2. However, the additional benefit is that mortgage interest is tax deductible, so on those prices the government still subsidises marginal rate tax too (53%).

The property values outside the 4 bigger cities have taken a hammering since 2007 and are still 25-35% below 2007. I know lots of ppl who have been trying to sell for years, 1 I know of had been trying to sell for 7 years...!

What is also interesting to observe is that there has been a lot of new builds bit this did not keep the bubble in check pre 2007.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

I really like the Netherlands. Easy people to work with, they are very direct, but it actually cuts out loads of political nonsense those goes on in UK firms.

I also like the food culture, as they still grow a lot of food, so you can get good local produce, even out of season due to investment in hydroponic tunnels.

I guess the only downside (from a property perspective) is that large chunks of the country are actually below sea level and so risk flooding. That said, the Dutch do take this rather more seriously than we do in the UK.

[btl_hater]

At the end of the day the Netherlands had their HPC post 2007. I know people who lost 30% on flats they sold, and that is in one of the major cities!

Edited March 15, 2016 by btl_hater

[olde guto]

I can give a bit more insight into this I suspect.the flats above are not in the nicest areas, Amsterdam in the nicer areas are now selling at 6 up to 10k per m2, and the Hague somewhere around 4-5k also in nicer areas. So although cheaper it's not bargain basement by any standard and that is actually not too far off where I'm looking to buy in london commuter belt (perhaps eventually!) with prices at gbp 4-5k m2. However, the additional benefit is that mortgage interest is tax deductible, so on those prices the government still subsidises marginal rate tax too (53%).

The property values outside the 4 bigger cities have taken a hammering since 2007 and are still 25-35% below 2007. I know lots of ppl who have been trying to sell for years, 1 I know of had been trying to sell for 7 years...!

What is also interesting to observe is that there has been a lot of new builds bit this did not keep the bubble in check pre 2007.

OK that's worth knowing as I've no real knowledge of the property market over there.

I have to admit that the areas those houses were in looked fine to me (certainly in comparison to council estates or bedsit land in the UK) from what I could see on streetview, but then again from the time I spent there most places looked far more neat and tidy than in the UK.

[richc]

I can give a bit more insight into this I suspect.the flats above are not in the nicest areas, Amsterdam in the nicer areas are now selling at 6 up to 10k per m2, and the Hague somewhere around 4-5k also in nicer areas. So although cheaper it's not bargain basement by any standard and that is actually not too far off where I'm looking to buy in london commuter belt (perhaps eventually!) with prices at gbp 4-5k m2. However, the additional benefit is that mortgage interest is tax deductible, so on those prices the government still subsidises marginal rate tax too (53%).

The property values outside the 4 bigger cities have taken a hammering since 2007 and are still 25-35% below 2007. I know lots of ppl who have been trying to sell for years, 1 I know of had been trying to sell for 7 years...!

What is also interesting to observe is that there has been a lot of new builds bit this did not keep the bubble in check pre 2007.

My partner is frequently in Amsterdam for work, and I spend a fair amount of time there as well. It's not an amazing bargain compared to London if you look at how much of someone's income they spend on housing, but it seems like a big difference for youngish professionals is that they will be living much closer into the city in Amsterdam -- the equivalent of someone in their early 30s being able to buy in a neighbourhood like Chelsea.

I have to say that the whole idea of making mortgage interest tax-deductible is completely bonkers. I would expect it of the Americans, but it makes me question the reasoning skills of the Dutch.

[Squeeky]

I am not sure I follow the point of this thread, You've quoted the plot size, rather than the living area. The first house sits on roughly a 6m x 5m footprint.

Those houses are tiny (or at least the same size as the uk equivalent) on very small plots. Houses of those size (actual house size) on larger plots are available locally to me at that price point. I will say the non-uk ones look better maintained and the estate agent / website seems to have put more work into photography than I am used to seeing....

Edited March 15, 2016 by Squeeky

[Ah-so]

http://www.engelvoelkers.com/nl/amsterdam/sold-w-023mmq-3528530.1123193_exp/?startIndex=13&businessArea=&q=Noord_holland&facets=bsnssr%3Aresidential%3Bobjcttyp%3Ahouse%3Bprc_GBP%3A%5B380000+TO+1900000%5D%3Btyp%3Abuy%3B&pageSize=10&language=en&elang=nl

This is a nice place in Amsterdam, but far from cheap.

I guess it would cost well over a million in London, but then again, Amsterdam is not London.

[Ah-so]

Just spent 3 weeks in the Netherlands and it confirmed (in my mind) that it's the banks (with a lot of help from the government) and something in the British mentality that has driven the insane HPI we've.

First things first a few factoids:

The Netherlands is a crowded place 400 people/ sq km (260 people/ sq km for the UK)

About 4% of the population are migrants from other EU states (similar, if not higher, % to UK)

I'm terms of population density, the UK's figures are somewhat skewed by large parts of the country being quite mountaineous.

England is actually one of the more densely populated countries in the EU, similar to Belgium and Holland,even if it is still a very green country.

I still agree with your main point - HPI was more about an insanity that affected our banks and people for a decade.

[billybong]

The capital cities Amsterdam and London's population densities are roughly similar even though London's population is a lot larger than Amsterdam's (assuming that the wikipedia's density figures of 4908 v 5432people/km2 are calculated roughly like for like - the figures in wikipedia being presented a bit differently for the two cities).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London

I think it's the banks aided and abetted by the government but the general population have had little choice but to go along with it (admittedly some very enthusiastically - especially those in the know such as MPs and bankers) and of course plenty of home owners have also benefited from it or at least benefited on paper. Plenty would rather have decent pensions and lower house prices but Blair and Brown put the kybosh on that and the current lot have continued that theme.

For many there's no real benefit as the next step up the ladder is more difficult and expensive, it's impossible for the average youngster to buy, every owner is now at risk of a massive collapse in prices, it results in massive ever increasing debt, it distorts the economy as so much money is continuously pumped into property, businesses have difficulty competing, everything is smothered by daft money raising schemes such as parking restrictions everywhere and other taxes and population ponzi policies etc etc etc.

Edited March 16, 2016 by billybong