Tax Credit Change "key To Eu Renegotiation"

[workingpoor]

Sajid Javid trotting out some tough talk on tackling the pull of £700 a month in tax credits luring EU migrants to the uk,

Hasn't it been pointed out on here that the government can just change the uk benefit qualifying criteria without making out some fake negotiation with brussel's is required?

Will these changes need to be applied across the board to UK nationals as well? (in order to comply with equality laws)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32865227

Limiting the rights of EU migrants to claim tax credits is a key part of the renegotiation of Britain's relationship with the EU, Sajid Javid has said.

The business secretary said ministers wanted to change rules that allowed EU migrants to receive £700 a month in tax credits - twice what Germany paid.

He told the Andrew Marr Show: "That's the kind of thing we need to change. It's a key part of our negotiation."

Labour's acting leader Harriet Harman said she also backed a rule change.

Prime Minister David Cameron, who is due to hold talks with European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker for talks on Monday, has pledged to renegotiate a "better deal" for the UK and hold an "in/out" referendum by the end of 2017.

'Patience needed'

Mr Javid told Andrew Marr he was confident the government would achieve the new deal it wants as the election of a Conservative government had concentrated the minds of Britain's EU partners.

"We are going to need some patience but we will get there," Mr Javid said, especially on getting changes to things like the welfare payments available to new arrivals from elsewhere in Europe.

Mr Javid said EU migrants could currently receive £700 per month in tax credits, twice what they would receive in Germany. He said "that's the kind of thing we need to change. It's a very key part of our negotiation."

Edited May 24, 2015 by workingpoor

[Lewis Gordon Pugh]

Just get rid of all tax credits.

[Fairyland]

Is there a data of UK/EU citizens in receipt of tax credit and total £££s spent on each per year.

[mrtickle]

Just get rid of all tax credits.

Hear Hear.

Another point, is that the more they mention Tax Credits, the less likely they believe that they will actually roll out Universal Credit.

[Ash4781]

Tax credits seem to reside in HMRC. HMRC seem to report through the treasury minister. Sajid is the sec' state for business and also there is IDS and that never ending universal credit thing over at the department of work and pensions.

George Os' is the ranking politician through the Treasury Minister. No idea what he wants though I guess maybe in July we'll find out...

[spyguy]

Just get rid of all tax credits.

That one-eyed, useless scots tnuc has gone.

Why continue with his 'Vote for Me! Im great! I did not knock up a lezaa just for votes. Look, Im a Dr! Im dead smart me! Ill fight fight fight for the poor (unless there's an SNP candidate and all my dirty bag men have been found out).' free money?

[spyguy]

Tax credits seem to reside in HMRC. HMRC seem to report through the treasury minister. Sajid is the sec' state for business and also there is IDS and that never ending universal credit thing over at the department of work and pensions.

George Os' is the ranking politician through the Treasury Minister. No idea what he wants though I guess maybe in July we'll find out...

IDS is a t1t.

I hope he's be given a badge with 'Dead-clever, feel-the-poors-pain' Badge and been told to shovel sht1 from one pile to another pile.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Just get rid of all tax credits.

That's far too simple you idiot.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

When did this change? And what happens to all the ickle kids in the large families who have never worked? Poor ickle kids, can't let them suffer etc etc.

Back in the 80s and early 90s, there was something called 'supplementary benefit' that you got when your dole ran out. Maybe before that was introduced the system could have been considered contribution based?

[Ulfar]

There are indeed many ways that these benefits could be limited to those who have paid in or lived in the country for some time. This would not however punish the poor citiznes of this country which is what the government want to do while at the same time laying the blame on someone else.

I think IDS is being given enough rope to hang himself, the only problem with this is he is just lies when confronted with any awkward facts.

[stormymonday_2011]

Back in the 80s and early 90s, there was something called 'supplementary benefit' that you got when your dole ran out. Maybe before that was introduced the system could have been considered contribution based?

Created in 1966 to replace National Assistance.

In fact a lot of what we think of as modern payment benefits did not appear until the mid 1960s.

The early welfare state was far less cash orientated and far more concerned with providing things i.e. social housing, free dentistry, free healthcare, free food for children such as school milk, orange juice, cod liver oil etc. Above all it had full employment as its chief aim.

The problem was that even these props were not enough to enable the residual poor to survive so they had to paid National Assistance which is where most long term cash based payments such as Supplementary Benefit, income Support, Tax Credits had their origin.

If I had one suggestion to welfare reformers I would say replace cash with things and link monetary payouts to contributions on a time limited basis.

[billybong]

In the late 90s/early noughties immigrants were issued with food vouchers and stuff like that and they didn't ask the eu for permission for that then. No stuff like equivalent benefits and tax credits etc and so on. Or at least that's what the media used to report.

That's not to suggest that they should go back to that but the whole "it's necessary to ask the eu for permission" stuff just seems like a blatant scam.

Incidentally Cameron's latest idea not to allow benefits for 4 years isn't a new one. Plenty of people have been suggesting it for at least the best part of 2 decades but here they are in 2015 raking over the old ideas again as if they've had brilliant new eureka moments.

Edited May 24, 2015 by billybong

[workingpoor]

I picked up on the "we are asking for patience while we negotiate these powers" etc

What they really want is to carry on the status quo of people pouring in and doing a mc job and clearing £1500 a month,

They have no intention of addressing tax credits i think its just a stalling tactic / soundbite.

I like to go and live in Portugal imagine if i could get a £700 a month top up for working for 5 euros an hr in a ramshackle beach bar? i'd think i'd struck gold!

Edited May 24, 2015 by workingpoor

[awaytogo]

Just get rid of all tax credits.

Correct

[awaytogo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32865227

We have been in the EU since the 70s, this crazy mass immigration has only started since the joining and freedom of movement of the poorer member countries, WHAT did they expect, earnings with benefits of up to 4x what they would get in their own countries no wonder they are coming here, They dont even have to bring their children into the country to get £700 tax credits.How many family's here would like to take a low paid job in Spain and be paid £700 per month.

This and the last government should never have let this happen.

Edited May 24, 2015 by awaytogo

[stormymonday_2011]

They elite's view was that they had to bring the eastern european countries into the ambit of the EU whilst the opportunity existed.

I seem to remember that British politicians of all hues were among the keenest to enlarge the EU and to open borders. Strangely they are all singing a different tune now. Of course, if IDS could ever get his useless Universal Credit system to work then we probably would have revolved some of the issues with Tax Credits.

[South Lorne]

...I like to go and live in Portugal imagine if i could get a £700 a month top up for working for 5 euros an hr in a ramshackle beach bar? i'd think i'd struck gold!....

..ahh..but that's the difference ..it doesn't work for Brits ...that's why we should not be in Europe ...

[spyguy]

We have been in the EU since the 70s, this crazy mass immigration has only started since the joining and freedom of movement of the poorer member countries, WHAT did they expect, earnings with benefits of up to 4x what they would get in their own countries no wonder they are coming here, They dont even have to bring their children into the country to get £700 tax credits.How many family's here would like to take a low paid job in Spain and be paid £700 per month.

This and the last government should never have let this happen.

Maybe the thing to do is to insist tax credits are reciprocated i.e. a brit can claim there1.5k from the Spanish or Romanain government when they are living over there if they are not going to scrap or make UK benefits contribution based - they should do both.

Or pay the equivalent national benefit in the UK.

[porca misèria]

In the late 90s/early noughties immigrants were issued with food vouchers and stuff like that and they didn't ask the eu for permission for that then.

Wasn't that specifically "asylum seekers"? That is to say, not EU nationals?

I think the issue is, EU nationals come here with jobs, so they have earned income to cover things at the subsistence level of food vouchers. So that wouldn't be applicable.

Once upon a time (I don't remember exactly when), the meeja noticed a certain section of the work-shy were congregating in seaside towns because they wanted to live by the seaside. The fuss was that benefits (with no residency or connection test) helped them do that, and it was leading to rising crime in a lot of destinations.

EU migration would be exactly the same if it was benefits tourism. Tax credits just add another layer: I came for a perfectly good job and ended up with these extra tax credits I never expected! The drawbacks of a stupid, over-complex benefits system.

[durhamborn]

Its simply due to other EU countries benefits being contribution based.You have to pay in for years before claiming.The UK is "needs based".If they changed the rules on all benefits to contribution based it would solve the problem tomorrow.

The government dont want the public to know this though.The EU have always said change your rules,but the government cant.See how it develops.

[darwin]

Just get rid of all tax credits.

This

[Damik]

They elite's view was that they had to bring the eastern european countries into the ambit of the EU whilst the opportunity existed.

it looks like you just do not like Eastern Europeans:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11622718/Immigration-nation-where-are-the-Britains-migrants-coming-from-and-why.html

[Dorkins]

I like to go and live in Portugal imagine if i could get a £700 a month top up for working for 5 euros an hr in a ramshackle beach bar? i'd think i'd struck gold!

Minimum wage in Portugal is €520 per month, works out to just under €3 per hour.

[billybong]

Wasn't that specifically "asylum seekers"? That is to say, not EU nationals?

I think the issue is, EU nationals come here with jobs, so they have earned income to cover things at the subsistence level of food vouchers. So that wouldn't be applicable.

Once upon a time (I don't remember exactly when), the meeja noticed a certain section of the work-shy were congregating in seaside towns because they wanted to live by the seaside. The fuss was that benefits (with no residency or connection test) helped them do that, and it was leading to rising crime in a lot of destinations.

EU migration would be exactly the same if it was benefits tourism. Tax credits just add another layer: I came for a perfectly good job and ended up with these extra tax credits I never expected! The drawbacks of a stupid, over-complex benefits system.

It was a question of definition in the early days of mass immigration since the mid/late 90s - and a question about how it was all reported in those days. In the mid/late 90s and early noughties UK people were led to believe that the problem was with the numbers of asylum seekers (from anywhere) and distinguishing which were real ones and which ones just wanted to be in the UK as economic migrants.

The UK government pretended that they didn't know how many immigrants were arriving including from the eu (even though the ONS had the official figures) and in those days certainly the pretence was that they were very small numbers and it totalled in the tens of thousands (even fewer numbers than the last government pretended it was trying to achieve and the current government pretends it'll try to achieve).

So unless an immigrant had a job (and those reported as crowding the French ports to come throught the Channel tunnel and in some cases arriving unexpectedly on airplanes etc didn't have a job) to come to apparently they would be put on vouchers until they were sorted out.

Or at least that's the way it was reported in the media.

Bearing in mind that in those days the internet was in its early beginnings and the media could more or less claim what it liked without challenge.

If you had a job to come to then indeed you would have a different status - but most didn't and lots still don't but it seems clear that these days they can relatively easily get the needs based benefits. I'm not saying that most wouldn't prefer a job - who knows.

These days you rarely hear of asylum seekers.

In those days there was no asking permission from the eu how to deal with a UK problem ever reported in the media.

Edited May 25, 2015 by billybong

[Executive Sadman]

it looks like you just do not like Eastern Europeans:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11622718/Immigration-nation-where-are-the-Britains-migrants-coming-from-and-why.html

Chindia is probably mostly students though...Australia/USA im not too bothered about because we send a lot of people there way too, same goes for western European countries.

Im surprised Pakistan is so little in that image, given even my local market town seems to become more like Karachi by the day...I guess it must be due to high birth rates more than new immigration.