Rare Bear Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The funny thing is, she wants the citizens income to be available to 'any passport holder, not just british' AND open borders. My guess that after all the world and his dog coming here, wages going to the level they are in Bangladesh...immigration wont be much of a problem. Everyone will be trying to emigrate! You are a glass half full man then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 You try walking into her back garden and setting up a barbecue, see how libertarian her position is then! Given Libertarian means respect for private property, she would be well within her rights to banish you from her property AND support open borders. Of course, she's not at all libertarian...if 1000 white people got together, exercised their freedom of association and declared their private new town 'white only' she would re-band the army and turn it into some kind of Waco seige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Enemy within. Australia born Green Party leader tells Brits how to live their lives. I assume she has given up her Oz citizenship or she is keeping that as an escape plan once the UK is completely destroyed by such looney left wing policies? Australia wants revenge on the UK/Wales for Julia Gillard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Australia wants revenge on the UK/Wales for Julia Gillard. Wasn't she our revenge for Patricia Hewitt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 How did she get here from Australia? I was reading something the other day about how she went by ship and train to some conference because she never flies. And how come the Greens had to import a leader from Oz? Its an upside down world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Wasn't she our revenge for Patricia Hewitt? That's true. We owe them one now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Given Libertarian means respect for private property,... Often yes, but Libertarian does not mean selectively picking and choosing the bits of authority and rule you like (state mandated property rights) and ignoring the ones you don't. Only on this forum is libertarianism an ideology that justifies both individual rights and individual rights stemming from coercion that lessens the property of others.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Often yes, but Libertarian does not mean selectively picking and choosing the bits of authority and rule you like (state mandated property rights) and ignoring the ones you don't. Only on this forum is libertarianism an ideology that justifies both individual rights and individual rights stemming from coercion that lessens the property of others.. Not this 'externalities' BS again! Libertarianism cannot be coercion...I think what you mean is 'libertarian leaning' in the same way Labour is 'socialist leaning' and tories are 'conservative leaning' (well supposedly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Not this 'externalities' BS again! Libertarianism cannot be coercion...I think what you mean is 'libertarian leaning' in the same way Labour is 'socialist leaning' and tories are 'conservative leaning' (well supposedly) I know what I mean, and I don't know what you're talking about in ref to what I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erat_forte Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I do not support the ability of state beurocrats to tell me where I can or cannot go. I do not need 'permission' to go from one public place to another. Therefore I am opposed to restrictions on immigration and freedom of movement. I'm also opposed to perverse incentives and moral hazard, so I don't think immigrants should be incentivised to come here by offering them free money. If you are a big state authoritarian I can see that immigration controls are attractive, as yet another way to control the masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProleStore Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 So what you're saying is that the Green party has the same immigration policy as the main three parties? At least they admit it. Oh, and they think we shouldn't be starting wars. Radical stuff. What loonies! Given Libertarian means respect for private property, she would be well within her rights to banish you from her property AND support open borders. Of course, she's not at all libertarian...if 1000 white people got together, exercised their freedom of association and declared their private new town 'white only' she would re-band the army and turn it into some kind of Waco seige. The Libertarian party exists to prevent the owners of the northern part of America - the US government - from exercising its private property rights over the people who live on its territory. You can't be opposed to government and in favour of private land 'ownership' because they are the exact same thing, as your 'whites only town' demonstrates perfectly. Often yes, but Libertarian does not mean selectively picking and choosing the bits of authority and rule you like (state mandated property rights) and ignoring the ones you don't. I'm afraid Libertarianism does mean exactly that, you are confusing it with anarchism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I do not support the ability of state beurocrats to tell me where I can or cannot go. I do not need 'permission' to go from one public place to another. Therefore I am opposed to restrictions on immigration and freedom of movement. I'm also opposed to perverse incentives and moral hazard, so I don't think immigrants should be incentivised to come here by offering them free money. If you are a big state authoritarian I can see that immigration controls are attractive, as yet another way to control the masses. I can see your point! I want to be able to go anywhere, but I don't want any Johnny Foreigner tuning up in my street! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 So what you're saying is that the Green party has the same immigration policy as the main three parties? At least they admit it. Oh, and they think we shouldn't be starting wars. Radical stuff. What loonies! The Libertarian party exists to prevent the owners of the northern part of America - the US government - from exercising its private property rights over the people who live on its territory. You can't be opposed to government and in favour of private land 'ownership' because they are the exact same thing, as your 'whites only town' demonstrates perfectly. I'm afraid Libertarianism does mean exactly that, you are confusing it with anarchism. So where do you think libertarianism stops and anarchism starts? Or where classical liberalism stops and libertarianism starts for that matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 ...I'm afraid Libertarianism does mean exactly that, you are confusing it with anarchism. Ok outside the US Libertarian Party's interpretation, but yes you're right that philosophically and practically libertarianism is usually hypocritical and anarchism makes more sense when it's consistent. Regardless, as erat forte highlights it's a funny world when the greens have probably the only 'libertarian' proposals (as a whole, who knows) and posters rant about open borders as socialist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I do not support the ability of state beurocrats to tell me where I can or cannot go. I do not need 'permission' to go from one public place to another. Therefore I am opposed to restrictions on immigration and freedom of movement. I'm also opposed to perverse incentives and moral hazard, so I don't think immigrants should be incentivised to come here by offering them free money. If you are a big state authoritarian I can see that immigration controls are attractive, as yet another way to control the masses. Sure. I'll vote for open borders when 1) the other 99% of government controls are eliminated. 2) Its a two way thing and every other former nation relinquishes its borders. Im sure open borders are inevitable one day, but unfortunately in the context of a government that is totalitarian in most other aspects (kinda like the green party) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Allegro Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Given Libertarian means respect for private property, she would be well within her rights to banish you from her property AND support open borders. Of course, she's not at all libertarian...if 1000 white people got together, exercised their freedom of association and declared their private new town 'white only' she would re-band the army Well put. I also think Greens are unlikely to be very libertarian if you tell them you're not going to put your household waste in silly little plastic boxes. These policies just appeal to deluded cozy liberals in north London. Only one country in the world has ever scrapped its army - Costa Rica - and that was mainly so that it wouldn't be able to overthrow the government! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 They are too late David Cameron beat them to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm not going to be an Anarchist! I don't like the uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Greens always were total loons. Back in the 80s I made the mistake of actually reading one of their election manifestos and, back then at least, it was all about women back into the kitchen, enforced vegetarianism and a total ban on motorised transport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 These policies just appeal to deluded cozy liberals in north London. The Greens are running at 8-10% in national polls, even with FPTP. I don't think cozy north London liberals make up 10% of the UK population. The Green vote is mostly young, and young means assetless, not "cozy". Will this manifesto ever appeal to 50% of the population? Probably not, but even Labour and the Conservatives will each do well to get 1 in 5 UK adults to turn out to vote for them this time. I'm sure these policies make many people groan and roll their eyes the way people like me groan and roll their eyes when they hear Lab/Con/LD/UKIP policies. I think that's fine though, it just reflects the kind of politics we are going into. The electorate has already completely splintered along wealth and generational lines, now the parties need to realign themselves to reflect this. If the Greens want to go after the young, leftish, private renting vote, it's theirs for the taking. Nobody else gives a stuff about this group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Allegro Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Greens are running at 8-10% in national polls, even with FPTP. I don't think cozy north London liberals make up 10% of the UK population. The Green vote is mostly young, and young means assetless, not "cozy". Will this manifesto ever appeal to 50% of the population? Probably not, but even Labour and the Conservatives will each do well to get 1 in 5 UK adults to turn out to vote for them this time. I'm sure these policies make many people groan and roll their eyes the way people like me groan and roll their eyes when they hear Lab/Con/LD/UKIP policies. I think that's fine though, it just reflects the kind of politics we are going into. The electorate has already completely splintered along wealth and generational lines, now the parties need to realign themselves to reflect this. If the Greens want to go after the young, leftish, private renting vote, it's theirs for the taking. Nobody else gives a stuff about this group. Perhaps I should clarify. North London liberalism is not confined to north London. It's a mindset, not a location. By cozy I didn't mean financially well off or stable, I just meant sentimental and idealistic. The impression I get from those I know to have voted Green is that it's a rather idealistic protest vote because they don't like any of the other parties. A bit like voting Lib Dem used to be, before they got into bed with the Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) I think she's saying she's not particularly comfortable with the idea of governments having the power to tell human beings which bit of land they're allowed to walk around in. It's quite a libertarian position. Suppose there was a Brave New Libertarian Britain. Now suppose they opened the borders to anyone. How long do you think it would remain libertarian after a hundred million Chinese and a hundred million Muslims moved in? Edited January 25, 2015 by MarkG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProleStore Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 So where do you think libertarianism stops and anarchism starts? Or where classical liberalism stops and libertarianism starts for that matter? Libertarians think some laws are special, in particular those laws that protect private property or land. Chomsky always puts these things much better than I can: Chomsky: Yes, and so well that kind of libertarianism, in my view, in the current world, is just a call for some of the worst kinds of tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny. Anarchism is quite different from that. It calls for an elimination to tyranny, all kinds of tyranny. Including the kind of tyranny that’s internal to private power concentrations. So why should we prefer it? Well I think because freedom is better than subordination. It’s better to be free than to be a slave. It's better to be able to make your own decisions than to have someone else make decisions and force you to observe them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Suppose there was a Brave New Libertarian Britain. Now suppose they opened the borders to anyone. How long do you think it would remain libertarian after a hundred million Chinese and a hundred million Muslims moved in? How do you know 100m Chinese and 100m "Muslims" want to move to the UK? Wages are higher in London than the rest of the UK but there is actually a net migration of UK citizens out of London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProleStore Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Greens always were total loons. Back in the 80s I made the mistake of actually reading one of their election manifestos and, back then at least, it was all about women back into the kitchen, enforced vegetarianism and a total ban on motorised transport. Have you read the other parties manifestos? They're all nuts. It's just we're used to their brand of insanity. That's how politics works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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