The Ukraine Chernobyl Thread

[blobloblob]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/05/ukraine-army-regains-control-slavyansk

Disgusted that we (as a member of NATO) are actively supporting this kind of action.

We are knowingly condoning and helping a leader who is committing war crimes against his own people.

A leader brought to power following the ousting of a previously democratically elected one at that.

[Stay Beautiful]

The U,S, backed Govmint in Ukraine continue to murder their own Russian speaking citizens with great aplomb.

Very nasty business on Europe's doorstep.

[1929crash]

The U,S, backed Govmint in Ukraine continue to murder their own Russian speaking citizens with great aplomb.

Very nasty business on Europe's doorstep.

Yes, and totally ignored by the British state Broadcasting Company.

[copydude]

Actually, I have noticed a slight change of rhetoric lately.

Perhaps there are those who who have finally woken up to the fact that this situation is not all Russia's fault, that Ukraine has serious issues, and that Poroshenko has divided the country more than ever. Perhaps now, irrevocably.

Germany clearly wants to maintain good relations with Russia . . . Angela and Vlad had a chat during the World Cup. At a prior meeting in Berlin, neither the US nor EU were invited. One might also remember that 'old Europe' did not follow the US blindly into Iraq, either.

But then there is a small question of money, too. Ukraine wants around 35bn, twice the IMF loan. Where's that going to come from? At the moment, it doesn't have an economy or even any gas. Moreover, there are some EU banks already waiting for loan repayments from Ukraine . . . trouble in Austria and Hungary already . . .

Things definitely ain't working' out.

[copydude]

Yes, and totally ignored by the British state Broadcasting Company.

It comes to something when American media such as the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg's are more balanced than the BBC.

As predicted by previous posters, the WW2 style military occupation of the East has come about . . . complete with local resistance units and partisans in the woods.

From WSJ

"We have no underground resistance here," he (the Ukrainian military commander) said. He reassures residents that the rebels won't be coming back "because I've said the only way I'll leave here is feet first."

But outside town hall, residents along quiet, tree-lined streets of one-story houses tell a different tale. Inside a deserted bakery, women say in hushed voices that many of the men are with the rebels, they said.

"The men who fought all ran for the woods," said one. "Take a look—there are no men on street."

She refuses to give her name, pointing to an advertisement on the wall urging residents to call a "hotline for the fight with banditry and separatism" to report anyone with the wrong opinions.

Ukraine's security services rounded up some men in the town who served in the rebel militia, said another woman. "Now people are reporting on each other."

[1929crash]

I can understand Putin keeping a lid on things while he chats up and charms old Lardarse, but surely he must realise that if Kiev slaughters and ethnically cleanses right up to Russia's border, that will only increase security problems for Moscow in the near future.

[F-sake]

I feel sorry for the civilians. Multiple crimes against humanity committed by the new Ukrainian regime were not just seemed to be ignored by the rest of the world, but actively encouraged by curtain politicians from across the pond. I must admit that until about a week ago I considered the people of Donbass being betrayed by the Russian government and personally by Putin. Though I appreciated that the stakes were very high and he had to care for the entire country of Russia in the first place, still seemed that far too little help was provided.

Then we have to bear in mind that unlike us, mostly run by emotions, people in charge of global politics have to deal with practical issues, and Putin is no exception. Surely he realises that Kiev regime cannot be allowed to prevail, but perhaps considers a military intervention as a last resort only. Another option is to ensure the rebels are capable of sustaining a valid military resistance to the Ukrainian forces for a significant period of time, considering that the Kiev now faces multiple economic and financial challenges and will not be able to maintain the military aggression indefinitely. The US obviously try and sustain the junta financially, but the strain starts to show by now anyway, especially if considering heavy losses the Ukrainian army suffers (some grim footage, 18+):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA-mjxRCVNA

http://korrespondent.net/magnolia/3392730-opublykovany-novye-foto-razbytoi-kolonny-pod-zelenopolem

As things stand today, the rebels manage to overcome initial organisational problems and now have adequate combat gear and troops under efficient military control by senior military offices, some of them have impressive military experience in recent wars in Balkans, Chechnya, Georgia etc. Meanwhile, running out of the cannon fodder, Ukraine regime now has problems with conscripting new “volunteers” even in the Western anti-Russian regions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcIck_-xAE

Under those circumstances I think we are about to witness a massive economic collapse and a humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine in a near future, perhaps this autumn. It is likely that Ukraine will cease to exist as an independent state in its current borders, and Donbass will not be the last region to brake the ties with it.

[F-sake]

As a quick remark to my own comment about the current state of the Ukrainian economy:

National Bank of Ukraine (NBU) has decided to raise the base interest rate by 3 percentage points - to 12.5%. This was reported by Interfax-Ukraine on Wednesday, July 16, citing a source in the National Bank.
"Yesterday evening, decided to raise the interest rate to 12.5% ​​from July 17," - said the source.

Note that the last time the regulator reviewed the level of the base interest rate in April this year, raising its level from 15th April by 3%: Up to 9.5%

http://korrespondent.net/business/financial/3393240-natsbank-povysyl-uchetnuui-stavku-do-125-smy

[copydude]

Then we have to bear in mind that unlike us, mostly run by emotions, people in charge of global politics have to deal with practical issues, and Putin is no exception. Surely he realises that Kiev regime cannot be allowed to prevail, but perhaps considers a military intervention as a last resort only. Another option is to ensure the rebels are capable of sustaining a valid military resistance to the Ukrainian forces for a significant period of time, considering that the Kiev now faces multiple economic and financial challenges and will not be able to maintain the military aggression indefinitely.

I believe that is the case.

I think there was a concerted effort to goad Russia into invasion. This would have:

1. Legitimised NATO troops entering Ukraine, at the request of the democratically elected Poroshenko

2. Solved the problem of the Donbass, with Russia taking on 10 million people's pensions, welfare and decrepit, rustbelt infrastructure

3. 'Poor little Ukraine' could continue to blame all its ills on Russian aggression

Meanwhile, for solving the problem of the East, Russia would be hit with more and more sanctions. Naturally, Vlad did not play.

Now, there is no real Plan B. I don't believe Kiev has the military manpower to seal the borders and run a full scale occupation. These are the two most populous oblasts in Ukraine. Neither does it have any broad civilian support or the loyalty of local police forces.

Under those circumstances I think we are about to witness a massive economic collapse and a humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine in a near future

Unless, at some time, Kiev talks to the separatists and comes to an accommodation. I believe Germany would favour this.

[1929crash]

I feel sorry for the civilians. Multiple crimes against humanity committed by the new Ukrainian regime were not just seemed to be ignored by the rest of the world, but actively encouraged by curtain politicians from across the pond. I must admit that until about a week ago I considered the people of Donbass being betrayed by the Russian government and personally by Putin. Though I appreciated that the stakes were very high and he had to care for the entire country of Russia in the first place, still seemed that far too little help was provided.

Then we have to bear in mind that unlike us, mostly run by emotions, people in charge of global politics have to deal with practical issues, and Putin is no exception. Surely he realises that Kiev regime cannot be allowed to prevail, but perhaps considers a military intervention as a last resort only. Another option is to ensure the rebels are capable of sustaining a valid military resistance to the Ukrainian forces for a significant period of time, considering that the Kiev now faces multiple economic and financial challenges and will not be able to maintain the military aggression indefinitely. The US obviously try and sustain the junta financially, but the strain starts to show by now anyway, especially if considering heavy losses the Ukrainian army suffers (some grim footage, 18+):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA-mjxRCVNA

http://korrespondent.net/magnolia/3392730-opublykovany-novye-foto-razbytoi-kolonny-pod-zelenopolem

As things stand today, the rebels manage to overcome initial organisational problems and now have adequate combat gear and troops under efficient military control by senior military offices, some of them have impressive military experience in recent wars in Balkans, Chechnya, Georgia etc. Meanwhile, running out of the cannon fodder, Ukraine regime now has problems with conscripting new “volunteers” even in the Western anti-Russian regions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcIck_-xAE

Under those circumstances I think we are about to witness a massive economic collapse and a humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine in a near future, perhaps this autumn. It is likely that Ukraine will cease to exist as an independent state in its current borders, and Donbass will not be the last region to brake the ties with it.

Hopefully, you are right since this is a conflict that potentially involves nuclear weapons.

However, the news from east Ukraine in the last few weeks has been all bad.

And the western media has been ignoring remarks like Yatsenuk's description of Russian ethnics as 'sub-human, and Poroshenko's Nazi-like boast that 100 civilians would die for every one of the Ukrainian forces killed.

[copydude]

. . .the western media has been ignoring remarks like Yatsenuk's description of Russian ethnics as 'sub-human, and Poroshenko's Nazi-like boast that 100 civilians would die for every one of the Ukrainian forces killed.

You left out the bit about re-taking the Crimea and having a Victory Parade in Sebastapol

He's completely nuts, don't worry about it.

[1929crash]

You left out the bit about re-taking the Crimea and having a Victory Parade in Sebastapol

He's completely nuts, don't worry about it.

I did - Porky's remarks sounded like what the Germans said before they destroyed Lidice.

Anyway, potential false flag with Malaysian flight downed on Ukraine/Russia border.

[Sour Mash]

I did - Porky's remarks sounded like what the Germans said before they destroyed Lidice.

Anyway, potential false flag with Malaysian flight downed on Ukraine/Russia border.

Yep - watching the coverage on the BBC 'News' channel now - this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

[1929crash]

Yep - watching the coverage on the BBC 'News' channel now - this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

And 23 Americans killed - excuse for US deployment in Donetsk?

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/17/ukraine-adviser-malaysian-airlines-jet-shot-down-by-missile-near-ukraine-russia-border/

[rollover]

European shares slump on Malaysian plane crash

Airline stocks fell, with Air France KLM retreating 1.5 percent while Lufthansa lost 2.4 percent. The Madrid-listed shares of International Consolidated Airlines Group - the owner of British Airways and Iberia - fell 3.4 percent.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/markets-europe-stocks-idUKL6N0PS4XC20140717

[olde guto]

Lets invent loads of conspiracy theories, claim broadcaster bias and then totally ignore inconvenient rumours that pro-russian sepratists were boast about bringing down another Ukrainian plane around the same time the malaysian airlines flight disappeared.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jkgi7zy7bksbqz5y3r6l.jpg

There are also rumours that the black boxes are on their way out of the Ukraine bound for Moscow. Why? Why not Kiev, KL or Amsterdam?

[1929crash]

Lets invent loads of conspiracy theories, claim broadcaster bias and then totally ignore inconvenient rumours that pro-russian sepratists were boast about bringing down another Ukrainian plane around the same time the malaysian airlines flight disappeared.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jkgi7zy7bksbqz5y3r6l.jpg

There are also rumours that the black boxes are on their way out of the Ukraine bound for Moscow. Why? Why not Kiev, KL or Amsterdam?

Hang on! I object to your use of the term 'conspiracy theory.' If you are saying that the separatists did it, would that not be a 'conspiracy theory?' Or is your ****-eyed definition of a 'conspiracy theory' only meant to include ideas that run counter to what appear on the British State Broadcasting Corporation?

How can the black boxes have been grabbed by Moscow supporters if Kiev forces have control of the aircraft wreckage?

[rollover]

Reuters journalists saw burning and charred wreckage bearing the red and blue Malaysia insignia and dozens of bodies....

Despite the shooting down of several Ukrainian military aircraft in the area in recent months, including two this week, and renewed accusations from Kiev that Russian forces were taking a direct part.

As word came in of what Ukraine's Western-backed president called a "terrorist attack", Obama was on the phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin, discussing a new round of economic sanctions that Washington and its EU partners imposed on Moscow.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/uk-ukraine-crisis-airplane-idUKKBN0FM1U420140717

The Reuters journalist is like Wallace Souza, Brazilian TV host who ordered murders to boost ratings.

It looks like US try to justify the sanctions against Russia.

[rollover]

Lets invent loads of conspiracy theories, claim broadcaster bias and then totally ignore inconvenient rumours that pro-russian sepratists were boast about bringing down another Ukrainian plane around the same time the malaysian airlines flight disappeared.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jkgi7zy7bksbqz5y3r6l.jpg

There are also rumours that the black boxes are on their way out of the Ukraine bound for Moscow. Why? Why not Kiev, KL or Amsterdam?

Yes, another conspiracy theorie, A Spanish flight controller, who works in Kiev, twitted that before the crash, he saw on the radar two Ukrainian jets shadowing the airliner.

[interestrateripoff]

Markets tumble after Malaysia Airlines crash

Last updated one minute ago

Live Russian stock market opens 1.9% lower after airliner down over Ukraine

The markets aren't keen.

[interestrateripoff]

Who is to blame? The world waits for answers – and dreads the consequences

Russia? Rebels? Ukraine? The diplomatic fall-out from the disaster is potentially enormous

[interestrateripoff]

Asian shares fall as Malaysian jet downing hits sentiment

TOKYO - Asian shares sagged on Friday and a drop in Treasury bond yields put pressure on the dollar after the downing of a Malaysian Airlines passenger plane over Ukraine sent investors scurrying into defensive assets.

[olde guto]

I did - Porky's remarks sounded like what the Germans said before they destroyed Lidice.

Anyway, potential false flag with Malaysian flight downed on Ukraine/Russia border.

And 23 Americans killed - excuse for US deployment in Donetsk?

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/17/ukraine-adviser-malaysian-airlines-jet-shot-down-by-missile-near-ukraine-russia-border/

Hang on! I object to your use of the term 'conspiracy theory.' If you are saying that the separatists did it, would that not be a 'conspiracy theory?' Or is your ****-eyed definition of a 'conspiracy theory' only meant to include ideas that run counter to what appear on the British State Broadcasting Corporation?

How can the black boxes have been grabbed by Moscow supporters if Kiev forces have control of the aircraft wreckage?

Object all you like, but 300 people died and you were the one talking about potential false flag operations and excuses for US deployment.

The truth is only those who pulled the trigger know who did it.

For the record I doubt Russia did it, I doubt Ukraine did it (as Russian will throw all of their resources at finding out if they did), that leaves the separatists. Unless of course you want to involve "the man" or "the new world order" or "the illuminati", ah what the heck or "the EUSSR"

[rollover]

Malaysian Airlines was still reeling from the impact of flight MH370's March disappearance. Now many question whether the carrier can survive a second disaster in such a short time. They are making huge losses it doesn't matter who is at fault. Shares in the carrier fell sharply.

The uncanny coincidences are likely to resonate, this comes very close in time, it was the same airline, the same aeroplane type. It happened outside the more common way of crashing for big airlines; most accidents happen close to landing or just after takeoff. They both have an element of mystery and perhaps unlawful and external interference.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/malaysia-airlines-survive-mh17-disaster-mh370-disappearance

To many reasons for conspiracy theories.

[rollover]

European flight safety body Eurocontrol says Ukrainian authorities have closed the airspace in the east of the country to all airline flights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28356745

So what is the plan?