Scottish Independence

[Rave]

I do not intend this to be a trolling thread. Perhaps it belongs in the Politics forum but I thought I'd start it here so it gets some exposure at least.

I'm English, but my paternal grandfather was a Scot, and so I have a Scottish surname- and a beard which looks brown but is in fact at least half ginger if you shine a bright light- e.g. the sun- through it.

I saw from your posts in the Andy Murray thread that you're planning to campaign in favour of Scottish Independence in the forthcoming referendum ATW. I'm genuinely interested to know why you think that would make Scotland better off? I've not had any reason to visit Scotland in my life so far, but I plan to in the near future, to enjoy some spectacular train rides, and then if I can justify buying myself a motorbike as a toy, some spectacular roads.

So for fairly obvious reasons I've not really heard the case for Scottish Independence in any great detail, and I'm genuinely interested to hear it?

[DEATH]

Maybe they just want more local people to siphon off all their cash to give to their own families and friends.

[erat_forte]

Most of the reasons I see are that the Scottish political groundswell is so radically different from the rule of Westminster that people genuinely don't see what is in it for Scotland to continue being ruled from London.

That, and the fact that Scotland already has many of the institutions of a separate country e.g. its own legal system, its own health service, its own education system.

[AThirdWay]

I do not intend this to be a trolling thread. Perhaps it belongs in the Politics forum but I thought I'd start it here so it gets some exposure at least.

I'm English, but my paternal grandfather was a Scot, and so I have a Scottish surname- and a beard which looks brown but is in fact at least half ginger if you shine a bright light- e.g. the sun- through it.

I saw from your posts in the Andy Murray thread that you're planning to campaign in favour of Scottish Independence in the forthcoming referendum ATW. I'm genuinely interested to know why you think that would make Scotland better off? I've not had any reason to visit Scotland in my life so far, but I plan to in the near future, to enjoy some spectacular train rides, and then if I can justify buying myself a motorbike as a toy, some spectacular roads.

So for fairly obvious reasons I've not really heard the case for Scottish Independence in any great detail, and I'm genuinely interested to hear it?

That's a big question!

Really can't answer it in company time, will provide a fuller answer later. There is a lot of information here to be going on with. They very rarely mention Braveheart, Wallace or Robert the Bruce

[@contradevian]

Only 435 days to an Independent England!

[swissy_fit]

Scotland would and could be better off independent IMO if they had better politicians, but that cunning but silly lying little fat man will lead the country to ruin after a period of apparent prosperity if he's given a chance.

This is not to say that the Westminster lot are better by the way.

Scots, get yourselves some good politicians and a proposed written constitution that prevents politicians and banksters from ruining you all, THEN vote yes, independence from Westminster won't save you if you're then slaves to Salmond and banksters.

Show the English the way!

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

I suspect Scotland would do okay independent and possibly thrive. I imagine the initial technique would be to offer greater tax incentives to win inward investment ahead of England. They'll also be able to build an educated workforce with several top class Universities with students that are not downtrodden by vast debts like their English counterparts.

Much of the UK is effectively moribund thanks to the entire political focus and reliance on London. Go the US or Germany and many regional cities remain powerhouses in their own right. Once great UK cities are relatively anonymous on the national and international stage now.

[porca misèria]

Better Fixed

Scottish nationalists have momentum. Now an unlikely alliance of UK political parties, headed by prominent Scottish politician Alistair Darling, launch a joint campaign called “better together” to preserve the union. That uneasy superstate known as the United Kingdom.

As an Englishman I won’t get the vote on this: the decision will be left to Scots. That probably means we can expect to see some bribes to Scotland coming from the better together campaign, and the more uncertain the outcome, the more will be the bribes. I expect proud Scots will reject the bribes, greedy Scots will grab them, and the balance will determine the eventual deal. The broken state of our union with its festering injustices on both sides (from an English point of view, headed by the Westlothian Question and Barnett Formula) can only get worse.

This is not what we need. If the union is to survive and prosper, the last thing it needs is this hopelessly broken state leading to legitimate grievances on both sides. Right now there is one proposal on the table to fix that, and it’s coming from the SNP. So long as it’s the only fix on offer, it has my support. But then, I don’t get the vote.

Maybe we would indeed be better together. But for the campaign to be credible, they need to tell us how they propose to fix the union. If non-Scots had the vote, maybe we could hope for a decent alternative.

[Steppenpig]

Reasons to vote for Scottish Independence:

Basically Scotland is treated by Westminster as a funny, distant bit of England, like the colonies were before they achieved independence. There are undoubtedly similarities between the peoples of the British Isles (including the Irish) that bind us together, but I think that the marriage has run its natural course. (England is the busy husband that thinks everyone must be happy, because he is happy. Scotland the frustrated wife, who thought she was supposed to be an equal partner in the relationship, but is now pushed to the edge of reason by years of condescension and neglect). There is a strong groundswell of antipathy towards England in Scotland.

The British are all still bit different from other Europeans, and so it would be logical if we continued to act together, but that dosn't exclude independence.

A far as the economy goes, i think it could go either way, but it's simply ridiculous of the doomsters to assume that the country will completely collapse. It is a reasonably modern, developed country, with reasonably functioning institutions, and a reasonably well educated population of 5m people. It has a slightly awkward and inaccessible geography, and somewhat unfortunate weather. In theory it should perform economically at least as well as Portugal, but there's no reason why it shouldn't perform as well as the Scandinavian countries. That said, independence usually turns out badly in the short term, with politiciancs somehow assuming the can give away money to everyone (who votes for them) and think it will turn out all right in the end, but the whole developed world seems to be going that way anyway.

Reasons not to vote:

Some people just seem to prefer being part of big institutions, the UK, the EU.

History, nostalgia.

There will probably be some disruption in the short term

It's all a bit scary.

I am also in fovour of independence for the two halves of Belgium, the Spanish regions, Corsica, East germany (the don't want it, but they should) and anywhere that the local population wish it. Bradford can declare itself an independent Islamic State as far as I'm concerned, if that's what the local population wants.

[the gardener]

I'm in favour of Independence for Scotland. Proper independence though, not some half-way house where they get all the benefits but the English pay for it (a bit like now come to think of it).

Can't wait to be shot of them really.

[gilf]

I'm in favour of Independence for Scotland. Proper independence though, not some half-way house where they get all the benefits but the English pay for it (a bit like now come to think of it).

Can't wait to be shot of them really.

Pretty much my view on it.

With regard to the finances, personally don't have all the data although I suspect they will be worse off in the longer term.

[@contradevian]

I suspect Scotland would do okay independent and possibly thrive. I imagine the initial technique would be to offer greater tax incentives to win inward investment ahead of England. They'll also be able to build an educated workforce with several top class Universities with students that are not downtrodden by vast debts like their English counterparts.

Much of the UK is effectively moribund thanks to the entire political focus and reliance on London. Go the US or Germany and many regional cities remain powerhouses in their own right. Once great UK cities are relatively anonymous on the national and international stage now.

I think Scotland should be independent however history suggests it will not be easy, given Scotlands problems with a more successful mercantile nation/competitor to the South prior to the Union.

Far better they go their own way, rather than throwing more bribes at them to stay in the Union.

I concur with other posters who think Salmond will lead them to ruin.

What we could all do with though, is independence from London!

[ARIMA]

What we could all do with though, is independence from London!

When you are tired of London, you are tired of Fife.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

The strength in blocs is when they stick together.

Look at the us states vs. Each individual state.

Salmond risks destroying Scotland for the sake of a vanity project.

The real issue for me is what is Scotland going to do about currency ?

If London takes little accont of Scotland now when forming economic policy how much less will it take when Scotland separates ?

[AThirdWay]

Why do I think independence is the right path for Scotland.....

First up, I spent many years living in England during my stint in the armed forces, and have no problem with the English, Welsh, Irish (apart from the ba$tard who blew me up (Well, very nearly, and I don't think it was personal!), Manx or Channel islanders. I have travelled all over this country, and with very few exceptions, I've always been treated well.

I suppose it all began around '93, when the Government at the time gave the contract to refit submarines to Devonport. Despite the Devonport bid being discredited at the time, subsequently proved to be correct, the safe Labour seat of Rosyth lost out to Devonport, the marginal Tory seat. I freely admit, that in '97 I turned to the dark side, and voted Labour in. I took redundancy soon after, returned to Dundee (by choice!), and entered 'the real world'!

It soon became clear that there wasn't a fag paper between Labour and the Tories, and neither parties did anything during their time in office to promote Scotland, although Donald Dewar and a few others get an honourable discharge on this....

So, where are we today? What makes me so convinced that an independent Scotland would be better than a Scotland in the union? I'm not! I don't for one minute believe that it will be plain sailing, and I don't for one minute believe that Salmond et al have all the answers. What I do know is that Westminster has brought the rest of the country to it's knees to support The City, and a banking industry that should have went to wall, just like all the other industries before it that disappeared due to lack of Government support. So what are we left with? Massive debt. A welfare system expanded so far by Labour during their stint (along with the Government infrastructure to support it) that the Tories are simply unable to reduce it now, despite their 'best' efforts. A society brought up on this largess, who have an ingrained sense of entitlement...... You've been here long enough to know the story.

Simply put, Westminster will support a myriad of schemes, financially crippling for future generations, to keep the ball rolling. I mean, they gave lending institutions OUR money, so that they could lend it back to US, at rates way above the base rate. What happened? They kept most of it on their balance sheets ffs! The more I type, the angrier I get :angry:

In short, the UK's fekked, time to git, while we still can! This isn't news, just check the Living Abroad threads. I prefer to stay and try to change the country I love. Soppy I know, but cut my leg off and you'll find a St. Andrews cross on the stump!

How can we change all that? In a Scotland within the union, we can't. The Scottish vote hasn't carried an election in all the years I've voted. Yes, we've voted for parties who have came to power, but they would have done so without our support.

How will independence help? Well I don't believe we will become the land of milk and honey if we achieve independence, and 99% of the supporters of independence that I've spoken to know this. There are some tough choices ahead. However, the UK faces tough choices as well. Holyrood can make these choices with Scotland's best interests at heart, Westminster would make these choices with London's best interests at heart.

And of course, we come to the oil.... It won't last forever, but even worst case, we're looking at 20 years income from it. The challenge we will face is not squandering it on welfare payments, vanity projects or any other of the myriad money pits available. We need to spend this relatively short term income in a way to attract industry to the country. We are already world leaders in so many fields, mainly due the private sector. Provide a low taxation regime for real industry, we can lead in so many others.

Lastly, I'm not a rabid supporter of the SNP, they get my vote because they are the only major party to offer independence. But I will say this....

Despite having no support in Scottish news media, despite having the might of the UK political elite bearing down on them and despite the massive negative scare-mongering focused on independence by almost everyone who has a public voice, they still garner more votes than any other party in Scotland. To me, that is massively impressive.

Sorry, a bit of an rambling overview. If you've got anything specific, just ask. I very rarely resort to abusive language nowadays, and rarely take offence

[Rave]

A fine reply ATW, and I can't find fault with it. I just want to make the following points though:

1) I live in SE London, less than 10 miles from the City, and there's been precisely no 'trickle down' to me.

2) RBS and HBOS were two of the most egregiously screwed banks before Brown bailed them out- presumably you're happy to take their liabilities with you as you leave the union?

[AThirdWay]

A fine reply ATW, and I can't find fault with it. I just want to make the following points though:

1) I live in SE London, less than 10 miles from the City, and there's been precisely no 'trickle down' to me.

2) RBS and HBOS were two of the most egregiously screwed banks before Brown bailed them out- presumably you're happy to take their liabilities with you as you leave the union?

Yes, when I say London, I really mean The City of London. I do appreciate that there is very little benefit for the majority of Londoners.

As to RBS and HBOS, they ceased to be 'Scottish' banks a long time ago. They only retained the 'Scottish' bit to, rather ironically, give the impression of financial prudence. It's funny how these things work out, isn't it

The best I can do is to quote (roughly) Salmond when asked about Scotland assuming their share of the debt per head of capita, "how does that make us worse off than we are now?"

[porca misèria]

So, where are we today?

As you say, an economy trashed by Westminster politicians. :angry:

Scottish Westminster politicians. :angry: :angry: :angry:

A clean break could rid us altogether of those.

[swissy_fit]

As you say, an economy trashed by Westminster politicians. :angry:

Scottish Westminster politicians. :angry: :angry: :angry:

A clean break could rid us altogether of those.

20 years too late, damage is done, and as English politicians are in the pockets of the banks as well I don't see the advantage to England.

The Scots won't gain much either if they don't constrain the bankers and politicians, WTF is the point of establishing a "new" country with real democracy if they make no effort to do it properly.Do it right and it could be a catalyst for the whole UK later.

[crashmonitor]

And of course, we come to the oil.... It won't last forever, but even worst case, we're looking at 20 years income from it. The challenge we will face is not squandering it on welfare payments, vanity projects or any other of the myriad money pits available. We need to spend this relatively short term income in a way to attract industry to the country. We are already world leaders in so many fields, mainly due the private sector. Provide a low taxation regime for real industry, we can lead in so many others.

Scotland needed to get out in the 70s when the income first came on stream, not now it is dwindling.

A lot to lose now if the calculations are wrong........a very welfare dependent population, the biggest industry is servicing the English public sector....HMRC, DSS, NS and I and the list goes on and on*. God knows what is going to happen to the 100.000s of workers relying on all the public sector jobs that were purposefully shipped out to the extremities (including NI and wales) to replace a void of private sector.

Meanwhile England could be the next fuel super power with shale gas coming on tap, London is one of the wealthiest and most powerful cities on earth and the income stream will not cease from that source. Personally I wouldn't risk it id I was Scots. The gamble is yours, it could prove better, who knows?

* indeed repatriating all these public sector jobs (and make no mistake, repatriated they will be) will be one utter shambles and nightmare for England too.

[swissy_fit]

Scotland needed to get out in the 70s when the income first came on stream, not now it is dwindling.

A lot to lose now if the calculations are wrong........a very welfare dependent population, the biggest industry is servicing the English public sector....HMRC, DSS, NS and I and the list goes on and on*. God knows what is going to happen to the 100.000s of workers relying on all the public sector jobs that were purposefully shipped out to the extremities (including NI and wales) to replace a void of private sector.

Meanwhile England could be the next fuel super power with shale gas coming on tap, London is one of the wealthiest and most powerful cities on earth and the income stream will not cease from that source. Personally I wouldn't risk it id I was Scots. The gamble is yours, it could prove better, who knows?

* indeed repatriating all these public sector jobs (and make no mistake, repatriated they will be) will be one utter shambles and nightmare for England too.

How many UK public sector jobs are there based in Scotland that would be likely to be brought south?

Quite a bit of defence and the accompanying civil servants, but what else?

[swissy_fit]

In short, the UK's fekked, time to git, while we still can! This isn't news, just check the Living Abroad threads. I prefer to stay and try to change the country I love. Soppy I know, but cut my leg off and you'll find a St. Andrews cross on the stump!

You're definitely right about this and soppy or not it's good to feel that way about your home IMO.

However is there anything proposed by the SNP that wouldn't effectively have them in the same position as the Westminster/City spivs and thieves? Have they got proposals to set up a constitution that limits their own power and limits the power of banks? Unless they create their own currency how would this be achieved?

To me it looks as though you'll just replace a distant lot of spivs with a local lot of spivs who are merely taking advantage of various sentimental issues to secure power and money for themselves.

[Trampa501]

Personally I wouldn't risk it id I was Scots. The gamble is yours, it could prove better, who knows?

The fear factor may be the deciding vote. I suspect that the Scots have enough talent and tenacity to make a go of it, but it won't be easy for everyone up there, and many will vote for the status quo.

Someone claimed the other day, that out of all the countries that have gained independence, not ONE, has asked to rejoin the original controlling country again.... Does East Germany count?

[Riedquat]

You're definitely right about this and soppy or not it's good to feel that way about your home IMO.

However is there anything proposed by the SNP that wouldn't effectively have them in the same position as the Westminster/City spivs and thieves? Have they got proposals to set up a constitution that limits their own power and limits the power of banks? Unless they create their own currency how would this be achieved?

To me it looks as though you'll just replace a distant lot of spivs with a local lot of spivs who are merely taking advantage of various sentimental issues to secure power and money for themselves.

That's the problem I'd have with voting yes (if I could vote) just because I wanted to be rid of that crap. If there was any sign of genuinely being different from the ruling mentality that's screwed the entire UK then you'd probably find most of the rest of the country wanting to join Scotland.

[AThirdWay]

You're definitely right about this and soppy or not it's good to feel that way about your home IMO.

However is there anything proposed by the SNP that wouldn't effectively have them in the same position as the Westminster/City spivs and thieves? Have they got proposals to set up a constitution that limits their own power and limits the power of banks? Unless they create their own currency how would this be achieved?

To me it looks as though you'll just replace a distant lot of spivs with a local lot of spivs who are merely taking advantage of various sentimental issues to secure power and money for themselves.

The SNP at the moment, propose to keep the Monarch as a head of state (not too controversial, thinking of Australia, Canada etc.), retain membership of the EU (I think we are going to have to in the short term, if only to wait and see how the rUK votes, if they ever get the chance) and keep the pound.

Keeping the pound is the only proposal I have a problem with. As you suggest, it leaves us exposed to the same old financial elite that has led us to ruination. Far better to have our own, oil-backed, currency. How about the Dollar

How we limit the power of Government and finance will be down to us. In the event of a Yes vote, we will go to the polls in 2016 to elect our first modern Government. That will be the critical vote, and there is no guarantee that the party in power will be the SNP. 2 years is a long time in politics!

Each political movement will put it's manifesto to the public, we choose which one we like the most. More hard work to be done at that time, but we need a yes vote to get us there.