Impact Of Housing Benefit Changes 'worse Than Feared'

[iamnumerate]

Social housing won't survive another term of LabourToryism and whining on about spare bedrooms and sharing won't suddenly result in a pool of cheap housing to rent or buy. On the contrary in fact.

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

Are you posting from inside a concentration camp? Where is it? I will come and protest outside.

People should be demanding secure tenancies as standard.

Your future landlords will be a small click of Fergus Wilsons. I hope you like your future.

No it won't housing benefits reductions will bankrupt them.

[winkie]

We have to question what is it that really makes us wealthy. Much of the activities of both public sector and private sector (e.g. banks) seem to be make work rather than making us truly 'wealthy'. Earning 'money' but aside from buying Far Eastern trinkets and gadgets doesn't get most of us very far.

I think we all here would include a good standard built environment as a key element of personal wealth. This comprises of the effort and skill devoted to this endeabour, but also how to divide the basic thing it occupies, land, amongst us more evenly to allow it to happen and make such a move 'affordable'.

...yes, money seems to be made more and more today from stringing it along over time, dragging it out for as long as possible, putting in an estimate for a job and doubling or tripling the cost by making everything more complicated, more experts, consultants, lawyers, inquiries, commissions....you name it someone is getting paid from it......then low and behold the whole thing is cancelled because the costs have soared........nothing then gets done..... lets think of something else to do that won't get done but will pay a few months/years wages whilst contemplating and deliberating how not to do it.

Edited July 5, 2013 by winkie

[wonderpup]

No, but it, and more importantly the ideology that defends it, is directly responsible for my tax bills being so mega high.

You mean the ideology that saw the banks deregulated and then bailed out to the tune of billions? The ideology that has seen the incomes of the top 1% going up massively while the incomes of poor stagnate- the Ideology that outsourced decently paid jobs and replaced the lost income with irresponsible lending- I do see the interfering hand of socialism at work here- but it's a socialism for the rich, not the poor.

If we really were living in some marxist state as you seem to imagine how do we explain the fact that it's the very rich who seem to be gaining the spoils, while the incomes of the poor are falling? Surely the opposite should be the case?

You also overlook the fact that most housing benefit is simply a means by which some middle class people are taxed so that some other middle class people can collect the money as rents on their BTL's- a situation facilitated by the banks who saw BTL as a cash cow and a way to extend their empire of debt even further.

It's pointless getting worked up about some spare bedrooms in social housing- those people did not create the problem, nor do they have the power to solve the problem.

The problem is the parasitic financial sector that has long since abandoned genuine wealth creation in favour of get rich quick speculation and 'financial engineering' that creates nothing but debt.

[Goat]

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists.........

They came for the palmists, but I wasn’t a palmist so I did nothing

They came for the bungee jumpers, but I wasn’t a bungee jumper so I did nothing

They came for the players’ agents, but I wasn’t a players’ agent so I did nothing

They came for the Charles Manson fans, but I wasn’t a Charles Manson fan so I did nothing

They came for the reflexologists, but I wasn’t a reflexologist so I did nothing

They came for the camp TV chefs, but I wasn’t a camp TV chef so I did nothing

They came for the RoMos, I laughed

They came for the martial arts enthusiasts, but I wasn’t a martial arts enthusiast so I did nothing

They came for Eamonn Holmes and I think I’m right in saying I applauded

They came for the fire-eaters, but I wasn’t a fire-eater so I did nothing

They came for Dani Behr, I said she’s over there, behind the wardrobe

[tomandlu]

The problem is the parasitic financial sector that has long since abandoned genuine wealth creation in favour of get rich quick speculation and 'financial engineering' that creates nothing but debt.

Quite. I'm amazed no one's rolled out the biscuit joke yet on this thread...

[Si1]

Social housing won't survive another term of LabourToryism and whining on about spare bedrooms and sharing won't suddenly result in a pool of cheap housing to rent or buy. On the contrary in fact.

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

People should be demanding secure tenancies as standard.

Your future landlords will be a small click of Fergus Wilsons. I hope you like your future.

schucks - first they tax spare state-provided bedrooms, next they gas the jews, jeez gotta be careful out there

[EUBanana]

If we really were living in some marxist state as you seem to imagine how do we explain the fact that it's the very rich who seem to be gaining the spoils, while the incomes of the poor are falling? Surely the opposite should be the case?

When did a marxist state ever help the poor in the long run?

We don't live in one anyway, we live in a corporate state. A bureaucracy state. A technocracy, I guess. A snake-tail-eating kleptocracy even. As for why, I don't believe in any conspiracy or anything. Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I'm sure Attlee and all that came after him did what they think they needed to do to help people but the bottom line is, it's not helped people.

The government is the monkey on my back, not my friend there to help me out if I fall upon hard times or the provider of valuable public services. Really, given the housing situation I'm already in hard times, despite in theory having a good job and in theory having a reasonable wage, and the services it provides are unneeded, $hit, or overpriced. Or "services" which are anything but, of which planning is but one, "services" which are really a boot on the throat.

It's not like I like the Tories either, it's true that once I did live under the illusion that they were going to do something different, be a bit Peelite perhaps, but they've done sweet FA, and digging into a bit of history, the likes of Heath and Eden were no better.

The failure is in the postwar consensus, I guess.

You also overlook the fact that most housing benefit is simply a means by which some middle class people are taxed so that some other middle class people can collect the money as rents on their BTL's- a situation facilitated by the banks who saw BTL as a cash cow and a way to extend their empire of debt even further.

Hardly. I know exactly what it is. That sort of money merry go round is what I'm on about when I talk about how perverse it all is. The bottom line - the bloated state and it's idiot redistribution doesn't work. Getting rich is largely about picking up state largesse, across all classes, from the chavster to the middle class landlord/quangocrat all the way up to the bankster elite and the top civil servants, both of whom are on megabucks for something worth less than bugger all.

Edited July 5, 2013 by EUBanana

[Guest TheBlueCat]

schucks - first they tax spare state-provided bedrooms, next they gas the jews, jeez gotta be careful out there

Yes, it's a really small jump from giving less of my money to other people so they can live in houses I couldn't afford to genocide isn't it?

[wonderpup]

Yes, it's a really small jump from giving less of my money to other people so they can live in houses I couldn't afford to genocide isn't it?

The most scary thing about this thread is that so many people now seem to envy the living conditions of the dreaded 'Chavs'- had someone told me a few years ago that people on this forum would be seriously enraged by the fact that some social housing tenants had a spare bedroom I would have called them crazy- yet here we are.

This more than anything else perhaps makes clear just how socially destructive and untenable the current housing situation is in the UK.

Sure there are cost arguments to be made- and I don't disagree with the principle that social housing space should be fully utilised- but when the middle classes start to hanker after the living spaces of the poor you know we are in deep shite.

[Imminent_plunge]

The most scary thing about this thread is that so many people now seem to envy the living conditions of the dreaded 'Chavs'- had someone told me a few years ago that people on this forum would be seriously enraged by the fact that some social housing tenants had a spare bedroom I would have called them crazy- yet here we are.

This more than anything else perhaps makes clear just how socially destructive and untenable the current housing situation is in the UK.

Sure there are cost arguments to be made- and I don't disagree with the principle that social housing space should be fully utilised- but when the middle classes start to hanker after the living spaces of the poor you know we are in deep shite.

Brilliant post

[@contradevian]

The most scary thing about this thread is that so many people now seem to envy the living conditions of the dreaded 'Chavs'- had someone told me a few years ago that people on this forum would be seriously enraged by the fact that some social housing tenants had a spare bedroom I would have called them crazy- yet here we are.

This more than anything else perhaps makes clear just how socially destructive and untenable the current housing situation is in the UK.

Sure there are cost arguments to be made- and I don't disagree with the principle that social housing space should be fully utilised- but when the middle classes start to hanker after the living spaces of the poor you know we are in deep shite.

If you walk round London, especially Central London around Kings Cross and East London, that former tenements built for the poor working class in the 19th and early 20th century are now exclusive pads for the professional classes.

Even the notorious brutalist Trellick Tower is now a sought after Notting Hill address.

We have had professional posters on here, interested in buying into the former "garden estates" originally built by the LCC, and of course to live in an ex local authority high rise in London is going to cost £200-250 a week. Thank goodness for the post war council house building boom!

As you say none of this used to be a problem, No one wanted to live on a Council estate, but now the professional classes find themselves increasingly priced out, they want the social tenants, which the properties were originally built for, herded out like cattle.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Secure Tenant

[porca misèria]

As you say none of this used to be a problem, No one wanted to live on a Council estate, but now the professional classes find themselves increasingly priced out, they want the social tenants, which the properties were originally built for, herded out like cattle.

True, there was a period when noone wanted to live on a council estate. That was back in the day when a council estate was a rough place: high chance of being the victim of serious and frequent crime, and the 100% certainty of being a victim of violence if you didn't "belong" there.

But even then, professionals living in grotty HMOs had to pay taxes (much higher than today's) to fund other people to live where we couldn't afford, and were deeply unhappy about it. And we had programmes like "low cost housing for local people", paid for by people who could never hope to afford to live anywhere that nice (example: people - many of them pensioners - in extensive poor areas of Northwest Sheffield, whose rates subsidised houses for the privileged in the Peak District village of Bradfield).

[Frank Hovis]

They came for the palmists, but I wasn’t a palmist so I did nothing

They came for the bungee jumpers, but I wasn’t a bungee jumper so I did nothing

They came for the players’ agents, but I wasn’t a players’ agent so I did nothing

They came for the Charles Manson fans, but I wasn’t a Charles Manson fan so I did nothing

They came for the reflexologists, but I wasn’t a reflexologist so I did nothing

They came for the camp TV chefs, but I wasn’t a camp TV chef so I did nothing

They came for the RoMos, I laughed

They came for the martial arts enthusiasts, but I wasn’t a martial arts enthusiast so I did nothing

They came for Eamonn Holmes and I think I’m right in saying I applauded

They came for the fire-eaters, but I wasn’t a fire-eater so I did nothing

They came for Dani Behr, I said she’s over there, behind the wardrobe

Dani Behr

[Guest eight]

Dani Behr

She's about as topical as a house price crash I suppose. :angry:

[Imminent_plunge]

True, there was a period when noone wanted to live on a council estate. That was back in the day when a council estate was a rough place: high chance of being the victim of serious and frequent crime, and the 100% certainty of being a victim of violence if you didn't "belong" there.

But even then, professionals living in grotty HMOs had to pay taxes (much higher than today's) to fund other people to live where we couldn't afford, and were deeply unhappy about it. And we had programmes like "low cost housing for local people", paid for by people who could never hope to afford to live anywhere that nice (example: people - many of them pensioners - in extensive poor areas of Northwest Sheffield, whose rates subsidised houses for the privileged in the Peak District village of Bradfield).

Not true. Council estates are still rough. I live on one, unfotunately not as a council tenant. Plenty of other suits here too who leave for work between 7.30 and 7.45am. We all live here because we simply can't afford the exorbitant and ever rising rents in London.

[ingermany]

the property VIs like to reverse engineer the costs.

Its why we are quickly getting more and more wedged between a rock and ahard place.

Its why PFI was hailed as a major breakthrough, hidden leverage for the monthly price of x, rather than a staggering cost of 100M.

Its why DEBT is strangling the western world.....cos now that lad has spent his £100 per week...he will be doing so for the next 20 years, with a guaranteed increase in 5 years time.

There are no guarantees in the PRIVATE sector he will be earning any more then.

So yes, he has his pad, but maybe scurvy is 5 years time will be commonplace.

And we learn that the NHS has an immediate £30 billion shortfall. 8 hour waits in A and E, massive numbers of excess deaths, and is in complete meltdown. But the taxpayer can spend another £120 billion on artificially ramping up house prices with gifted deposits and guaranteed loans to allow people with houses they can't sell to sell them on for up to £600k thanks to a government subsidy. The wheels will come off this artificial and wholly government backed gravy train. But not before we see Egypt type mayhem on the streets.

We took the money from here to fund Help to Buy

[ingermany]

In principle I agree with the reduction of benefit for spare rooms but it is ridiculous when the government subsidise parts of society (600k buyers and SMI pensioners) who may have 3 or 4 spare bedrooms while demonising workers who are in receipt of housing benefit who have 1 spare bedroom.

Remember it is not the buyers who get the subsidy from government. It is the sellers. The £120k subsidy per £600k house is going to the seller so they don't have to drop the price by £120k to sell. Government is using this subsidy to force up housing costs for everybody. I'm not convinced by their logic that assumes everybody will feel richer as a result. It seems to me that at least as many people will be disadvantaged as a result of the intervention, and those on the receiving end of benefit cuts, tax rises and deficient public services will number among the losers. When they realise that the winners are those with assets of over £1/2 million will they be angry? So far it seems the answer is no.

[porca misèria]

When they realise that the winners are those with assets of over £1/2 million will they be angry? So far it seems the answer is no.

erm ...

The mainstream press seem well aware of who the winners are, and pissed off by it.

[ingermany]

erm ...

The mainstream press seem well aware of who the winners are, and pissed off by it.

Come off it, the media and most of the population positively salivate at the prospects of rising house price inflation. They look upon HPI as a surrogate measure of national wealth.

[Bland Unsight]

Come off it, the media and most of the population positively salivate at the prospects of rising house price inflation. They look upon HPI as a surrogate measure of national wealth.

My read on this was always that by saying Help to Sell will fuel/create a bubble, the London-centric media were actually wittingly or unwittingly reinforcing the idea that any correction that was due had occurred. Don't recall too many headlines indicating that the proposed intervention would prevent a needed correction or exacerbate an already unsustainable bubble.

[ingermany]

My read on this was always that by saying Help to Sell will fuel/create a bubble, the London-centric media were actually wittingly or unwittingly reinforcing the idea that any correction that was due had occurred. Don't recall too many headlines indicating that the proposed intervention would prevent a needed correction or exacerbate an already unsustainable bubble.

Yes I agree. To the masses and the media the housing crisis is the fact that people who bought for £500K 7 years ago can't now sell for £1m. There is an assumption of doubling HPs every 7 years. To the masses the crisis is nothing to do with homelessness, overcrowding and unaffordable rents. Even though this is the real impact, people ignore it. Instead, what they want is house price doubling every 7 years because they believe, by some mystical formula, that makes us all rich. So, if help to sell pushes up prices artificially the intervention will be cheered from the rooftops. Even for those not on the "housing ladder" many believe that maintaining scarcity and high prices is in their long term interests. So powerful is the HPI meme-virus.

[Tired of Waiting]

Yes I agree. To the masses and the media the housing crisis is the fact that people who bought for £500K 7 years ago can't now sell for £1m. There is an assumption of doubling HPs every 7 years. To the masses the crisis is nothing to do with homelessness, overcrowding and unaffordable rents. Even though this is the real impact, people ignore it. Instead, what they want is house price doubling every 7 years because they believe, by some mystical formula, that makes us all rich. So, if help to sell pushes up prices artificially the intervention will be cheered from the rooftops. Even for those not on the "housing ladder" many believe that maintaining scarcity and high prices is in their long term interests. So powerful is the HPI meme-virus.

Very interesting point IG. Quite possible, sadly.

[Bloo Loo]

Very interesting point IG. Quite possible, sadly.

people seem to beleive that hard work and tears are the way to get things.

Sadly, they dont see the financialisation of their efforts and the theft of their wealth by the Banks.

Bankers wear suits and work in secure buildings....just to add to the illusions....