Panorama Britain's Hidden Housing Crisis

[Mrs Bear]

Some people have dug themselves such a deep hole they find it impossible to climb out of it without the charitable help of others.....they do not have the means, the education, the health, the earning ability, strength or know how.......

Sadly true. Friend of ours is a senior volunteer for CAB - he often finds it very harrowing, people who simply don't understand basics, lack the education or nous to find anything out, couldn't write a coherent letter or email to save their lives, haven't a clue, or (even worse sometimes) are innocently trusting, helpless prey to con men, loan sharks, etc., and don't even have any more clued-up friends or family to help or advise them.

Of course there are also those who simply expect someone else to pay for everything, but he finds the first category (the hopeless) the most numerous, and the ones he finds it hard to get out of his head when he gets home.

[pig]

I think the programme failed in its remit. Yes, they found a few families having to move house due to non-payment of rent or mortgage, but there have always been families in this situation even at the height of the boom. These families are in their own personal crises due to unemployment, disease etc but there was no attempt made to identify the common threads that make this a more general housing crisis for the country.

It was a shallow programme made by people who don't understand Britain's housing problems. All they wanted was to show a few families stuffing their tat into binbags and crying while handing over the keys to the bailiff.

Broadly agree with this but I'm not sure the programme had any remit other than a straight telling of the suffering and the waste of people losing their home in a climate where this is increasing.

I guess if you are wishing for a housepricecrash you will feel impelled to moralise and judge, but it does seem rather pointless.

I pretty much felt sorry for all of them, from feckless to unlucky. I thought it particularly devastating for the children.

At the end if the day there is relentless property propaganda throughout society and ruining it and I'd like people out of it - sneering at people caught up in it is just a sort of inverted equivalent of enjoying property porn.

[Gone baby gone]

Broadly agree with this but I'm not sure the programme had any remit other than a straight telling of the suffering and the waste of people losing their home in a climate where this is increasing.

I guess if you are wishing for a housepricecrash you will feel impelled to moralise and judge, but it does seem rather pointless.

I pretty much felt sorry for all of them, from feckless to unlucky. I thought it particularly devastating for the children.

At the end if the day there is relentless property propaganda throughout society and ruining it and I'd like people out of it - sneering at people caught up in it is just a sort of inverted equivalent of enjoying property porn.

+1

[Dorkins]

I guess if you are wishing for a housepricecrash you will feel impelled to moralise and judge, but it does seem rather pointless.

If you re-read my post, you will find that I didn't moralise about or judge the families in this programme. I was criticising the programme makers for their shallow treatment of the UK housing crisis. There is a general crisis in UK housing, but I don't think repossessions are a major part of it. Something like 45,000 houses a year are repossessed in the UK, which is about 0.2% of the housing stock. The UK housing crisis is much wider than that.

[pig]

If you re-read my post, you will find that I didn't moralise about or judge the families in this programme. I was criticising the programme makers for their shallow treatment of the UK housing crisis. There is a general crisis in UK housing, but I don't think repossessions are a major part of it. Something like 45,000 houses a year are repossessed in the UK, which is about 0.2% of the housing stock. The UK housing crisis is much wider than that.

Apologies - I wasn't clear. Criticism was not directed at you but at numerous previous posts by others. As I said I agree with you - yes Panorama, repossessions happen and they are pretty bad but they happen all the time. If you preface the programme with the fact we are in the grip of a Housing Crisis then shouldn't you offer some insight why ? Who knows you might come to the conclusion we've had remarkably few so far...

[northeast Canuck]

I think the programme failed in its remit. Yes, they found a few families having to move house due to non-payment of rent or mortgage, but there have always been families in this situation even at the height of the boom. These families are in their own personal crises due to unemployment, disease etc but there was no attempt made to identify the common threads that make this a more general housing crisis for the country.

It was a shallow programme made by people who don't understand Britain's housing problems. All they wanted was to show a few families stuffing their tat into binbags and crying while handing over the keys to the bailiff.

I agree with this completely. As I was watching it I just kept thinking that these people would have been in this situation no matter what the state of the economy was. Whether it was naivity, fecklessness, stupidity, or just plain bad luck there will always be people who are in terrible situations like this.

The thing that really stood out for me was that it showed just how unable these people were to adapt and change their lives when faced with adversity. None of them appeared to be interested in trying to get a job, with the exception of the investment banker who really should be setting his sights a little lower. Instead they just seemed to sit around crying, looking at the calendar counting the days until the inevitable happens. I just cannot relate to these people at all.

Felt sorry for the kids though. And the bus driver - being married to that woman must be horrible.

[cybernoid]

I guess if you are wishing for a housepricecrash you will feel impelled to moralise and judge, but it does seem rather pointless.

I pretty much felt sorry for all of them, from feckless to unlucky. I thought it particularly devastating for the children.

These are adults, they need to take responsibility for themselves. They aren't just harming themselves they are harming society as a whole. It's very easy to say what you have, its the sort of thing a labour politician would do in an episode of question time and they would get applause from an unthinking audience. Boo bad things are bad good things are good etc etc. I Like kittens!! clap clap clap.

What is needed is harder than that. People need to take responsibility for themselves and where they do not there needs to be consequences, especially when their behaviour brings us ALL down no matter what we have done. Otherwise whats the point of bothering to do anything useful for society? Why get a job? Why not borrow all the banks will lend and never pay it back, what difference does it make? I get free stuff, oh its all gone wrong, help help im a victim of the system.

Without rewarding behaviour that benefits society and allowing consequences to occur to those who take action that is a drag on society, where do we end up? Sobbing in eachothers arms and feeling sorry for one another as we all strave to death because no-one could be bothered to produce any food?

[pig]

These are adults, they need to take responsibility for themselves. They aren't just harming themselves they are harming society as a whole. It's very easy to say what you have, its the sort of thing a labour politician would do in an episode of question time and they would get applause from an unthinking audience. Boo bad things are bad good things are good etc etc. I Like kittens!! clap clap clap.

What is needed is harder than that. People need to take responsibility for themselves and where they do not there needs to be consequences, especially when their behaviour brings us ALL down no matter what we have done. Otherwise whats the point of bothering to do anything useful for society? Why get a job? Why not borrow all the banks will lend and never pay it back, what difference does it make? I get free stuff, oh its all gone wrong, help help im a victim of the system.

Without rewarding behaviour that benefits society and allowing consequences to occur to those who take action that is a drag on society, where do we end up? Sobbing in eachothers arms and feeling sorry for one another as we all strave to death because no-one could be bothered to produce any food?

Well - now look who is not living in the real world !

In an ideal world I agree with all of the above. And your deterministic moralism could be applied without further consideration or thought.

But guess what ? we don't live in that ideal world any more than the ideal situation Adam Smith envisaged. There are consequences to our actions, but we have been brain-f*cked out for decades now with HPI propaganda under which even short-term consequences have been relentlessly obscured, let alone the gathering disaster we are facing.

From the 'experts' who are really Vested Interests, to ignorant or spineless politicians, to 'on message' family and friends - it really is quite breathtaking how the collective delusion has persisted, is still persisting. If even above-intelligent individuals have gone along with the 'sheeple' then Victorian style paternalistic complaints about the poor and the dumb-asses are as useless and self-indulgent as saying 'let them eat cake'.

This isn't going to be solved by individuals suddenly realising the 'error of their (individual) ways' because the 'error' is an endemic and collective problem. Its going to take leadership and/or real disaster to change direction.

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

Well - now look who is not living in the real world !

In an ideal world I agree with all of the above. And your deterministic moralism could be applied without further consideration or thought.

But guess what ? we don't live in that ideal world any more than the ideal situation Adam Smith envisaged. There are consequences to our actions, but we have been brain-f*cked out for decades now with HPI propaganda under which even short-term consequences have been relentlessly obscured, let alone the gathering disaster we are facing.

From the 'experts' who are really Vested Interests, to ignorant or spineless politicians, to 'on message' family and friends - it really is quite breathtaking how the collective delusion has persisted, is still persisting. If even above-intelligent individuals have gone along with the 'sheeple' then Victorian style paternalistic complaints about the poor and the dumb-asses are as useless and self-indulgent as saying 'let them eat cake'.

This isn't going to be solved by individuals suddenly realising the 'error of their (individual) ways' because the 'error' is an endemic and collective problem. Its going to take leadership and/or real disaster to change direction.

Politicians have hardly been ignorant and spineless, after all every legal change since the magna carta has been enforced by politicians and not suprisingly theyve done pretty well out of changes.

Looking for politicians to improve things is like asking the menendez brothers to become family orientated but hey as long as they are endorsed to make things better then mush on, stupid is as stupid does and 400+ years is alot of retardation

Edited December 15, 2012 by Georgia O'Keeffe

[cybernoid]

This isn't going to be solved by individuals suddenly realising the 'error of their (individual) ways' because the 'error' is an endemic and collective problem. Its going to take leadership and/or real disaster to change direction.

Endemic and collective, as in requiring all individuals to suddenly realise the 'error of their individual ways'? You contradict yourself.

I don't need a 'leader' to tell me I can't have what I can't afford, I just need not be a stupid ass. And if I am a stupid ass and bring down others in the process I need a good kick, not a pat on the head and a 'there there'. That is the debate here, tea and sympathy versus rehabilitation.

A 'leader' to help us out of our own stupidity has not had good results historically. Personal Responsibility.

[pig]

Endemic and collective, as in requiring all individuals to suddenly realise the 'error of their individual ways'? You contradict yourself.

I don't need a 'leader' to tell me I can't have what I can't afford, I just need not be a stupid ass. And if I am a stupid ass and bring down others in the process I need a good kick, not a pat on the head and a 'there there'. That is the debate here, tea and sympathy versus rehabilitation.

A 'leader' to help us out of our own stupidity has not had good results historically. Personal Responsibility.

Oh really ? Well that is very good of you - top marks ! Unlike those other naughty children who do what the other teachers say...

Our leaders have told us that house prices up good, house prices down bad.

Our leaders have told us no more boom and bust.

Our leaders have set interest rates to protect house prices as much as banks and the general economy.

Our leaders have tried to entice first-time buyers into ridiculous schemes and shore up the runaway profits of house-builders.

Our leaders even employ advisers from property ramping shows.

And even more pernicious we have mortgage 'advisers', we have older relatives who tell us we can't go wrong with bricks and mortar, and peers who at least up to 2008 marvelled at their spiralling endless property wealth and warned how others would 'miss the boat'.

So ...as much as much as I admire your faith in personal responsibility, it is comically complacent and self-indulgent, and it is telling that the only sort of 'leadership' that registers with you seems to be of the totalitarian kind.

[pig]

Politicians have hardly been ignorant and spineless, after all every legal change since the magna carta has been enforced by politicians and not suprisingly theyve done pretty well out of changes.

Looking for politicians to improve things is like asking the menendez brothers to become family orientated but hey as long as they are endorsed to make things better then mush on, stupid is as stupid does and 400+ years is alot of retardation

I do have a lot of sympathies for what you say, but just to risk contradicting my reply to cybernoid, we do have a personal responsibility to demand of our politicians. They're not the only culprits/people who can make a change though.

[cybernoid]

So ...as much as much as I admire your faith in personal responsibility, it is comically complacent and self-indulgent, and it is telling that the only sort of 'leadership' that registers with you seems to be of the totalitarian kind.

This nonsense bears no relation to anything I said.

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Georgia O'Keeffe

[winkie]

i have no responsibility to demand anything of anyone other than myself

If countries wish to continue as autocracies thats their problem and their citizens

If the west wants to introduce democracy, then it becomes the citizens problem, but seeing as theyve had 1000 years of recorded history to introduce democracy and refused then i dont see how its in any way anyones problem but the autocracy that rules under threat of violence

You're wasted, you should become a politician.

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Georgia O'Keeffe

[DoINeedOne]

Council family seemed to blame everyone else for there issues why have 6 kids, missed a number court dates or never filled paper work, i got friends with 1-2 kids always telling how expensive they are cant imagine having 6

Cancer women felt bit sorry for her seemed like a nice women but the story didn't seem like it was the full story

Banker seemed a nice guy and did not really moan was just grateful for any help, did well in USA fell into some trouble used savings to try recover lost business but did not work out

Family reminds me of my friends 2 cars, expensive holidays , house they cant afford or high rent, no savings thinking the wages will always be there but struggling to pay bills, does not stop them signing up for new contract for latest phone or ordering SKY HD or buying pointless crap - they lived a good life and did not worry about the future because they thought money would always be there

The cheaper you can live, the greater your options

[winkie]

i am a politician, every federal law thats been passed in the last 6 years ive voted on (recalling my helvetican roots)

its about time brits became politicians rather than expecting the state to wipe their sorry asses clean via chinese diapers, 30 years is a short time in history to presume it will last forever

Looked it up it said...Helvetica is actually an Inuit word meaning 'the fish that no one admits to liking but which is consumed more than any other'.

[pig]

This nonsense bears no relation to anything I said.

Lol - well I'm sorry if you feel it didn't. If I've misunderstood you, apologies but would be interested in your appraisal of the tension between 'personal responsibility' and the mass brainwashing (if you think it exists of course) we've been subjected to.

[BLT]

As somone who has been homeless themselves in the past, and now works with homeless people in Croydon I found this programme of interest.

The Bus driver married to the fishwife:

I've seen people in their situation so many times I'm 100% certain i know what happenend to them. I.e. "lost housing benefit" forms, essentially what happens is when applying for housing benefit if you don't get proof of handing in your form, you can be certain the housing benefit people will claim the form has never been handed in.

I know this to be true as I have had happen to myself, Fortunatley when I was threatened with eviction and the council had initiated court proceedings, I pointed out I would show the judge all the proof that I had applied for housing benefit and that essentially the same peoplen trying to evict me are the same people who have kept losing my benefit forms.

Since I've started working with homeless people I have found that this is a commom occurence up and down the country with most councils. One member of staff admitted to me off the record that they regularly bin peoples Housing benefit and claim they were never handed in, as it's their way of being able to meet performance targets.

On the flip side, this family should have been in more control of the problem like I was. I somehow get the impression that they handed in their form, it got lost, then they thought "sod it, not our problem they lost the form, we know we handed it in". I have heard this so many times, problem is, if you can't prove you handed it in you are stuffed.

Furthermore it's more than likely they will have been taken to court several times and given the opportunity to clear the arrears, Judges rarely evict people from council housing on the first appearance. But likewise, as I have seen before, the fact they wern't thrown out at their first court appearance will have led to a false sense of security that the court would never put a family with 6 kids on the street. When it finally happens it usually comes as a shock.

Cancer Woman: Something seriously a miss with this story, first off which everyone here seems to have missed, is that she likely had 50% discount on that house when she bought it, so she bought it for approx £25k. Run forward 17 years, she would owe about £8k on the principle which ties in with the £9k figure she quoted in the programme. Now given her circumstances, the pitiful amount she owed on the property, and the fact that as she pointed out she could make the payments easily on her benefits I find it hard any judge would have ordered her eviction, unless there was something else she wasnt telling us. She gave clue to this when referring to signing paperwork she didnt understand, I somehow got the impression she wasn't talking about her original mortgage agreement.

Kevin The Banker: Though I would hate him and I would revel in my Schagenfraude, however I felt sorry for him and it's people like him who make my work with the homeless a pleasure, i.e. helping people who are genuinely grateful for the help you give them. and make the most of it to turn their lives round.

£500K 100% mortgage people: As already said, must have been a serious amount of Mewing, because even with an IO mortgage HPI would have gave them a good amount of equity to be able to downsize to somewhere half decent. The comment about the cars, then saying they wasted it "cos they needed it for xmas" infuriated me. When your back is against the wall when facing homelessness, you make tough decisions not keep making the same ones that got you in that position in the first place.

As mentioned earlier all of these people were ultimately the architects of their own downfall, and will have had plenty of chances on the way down to prevent it happening. However I got the impression from all (apart from kevin), that most expected the council to step in at the last minute with a fantastic property the likes an afghan family would get. But as cancer woman found out, there is a reason why the council won't reveal where your temporary accomodation is and will make you sign for it before hand.

[pig]

i have no responsibility to demand anything of anyone other than myself

If countries wish to continue as autocracies thats their problem and their citizens

If the west wants to introduce democracy, then it becomes the citizens problem, but seeing as theyve had 1000 years of recorded history to introduce democracy and refused then i dont see how its in any way anyones problem but the autocracy that rules under threat of violence

Well, coming on here and having a bit of a moan or a bit of a debate, might not be voting, might not be haranguing local politicians, might not be taking to the streets etc etc but it is something.

At the very least you'd hope a site like this would push the likelihood of interested people that bit further away from appearing on a Panorama programme....

Clearly you're at least interested at a sort of 'meta' level in the political process - do you have any ideas how this crisis might be solved or are you otherwise completely disengaged and disinterested ?

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Where is the Panorama programme for the sensible people? They've had to sacrifice their chance for happiness in a steady home, perhaps they've delayed having their own kids. Not to mention the feeling of inadequacy associated with having to stay with parents well beyond childhood.

That just wouldn't make good television, so no-one would watch it. Stories about normal people just getting on with things and making the best of their situation are never going to be able to compete with ex-investment bankers (not sure I actually believe that part anyway) living rough in parks and chav families with a brood of chavlettes being evicted for, well, being chavs.

[goldbug9999]

These are adults, they need to take responsibility for themselves. They aren't just harming themselves they are harming society as a whole.

Indeed, now much sympathy do the sort of people featured in the program have for the lifetime debt slaves who funded the equity they pissed away, or for the generation of people who cant afford a decent house of their own because they help bid up prices, or for people who rely on savings income to live which has been stolen to bail them out ??. Did any of them ever give a moments thought to where the magic money was coming from, to the suffering that such wealth transfer was causing to society and individuals at the wrong end of it ?.

No of course they didn't, well sod them all I say. I mean seriously, these are the people who have stolen yours and your kids futures, WTF are any of you doing feeling for them ?.

Edited December 16, 2012 by goldbug9999

[AThirdWay]

$604 is maximum

This isn't some impossible figure to attain either. I know several people who are collecting $580+ a week. Everyone pays into unemployment insurance and it's fairly dished out pro-rata. It's a much better system than in the UK. It allows people to keep their heads above water until another job comes along.....and it's for single people, married people and those with kids. As I say it's a better system for workers not spongers.

Looks to be pretty fair, all in. Minimum wage earners get about $150 p.w. though, and it's taxed. Not quite the nirvana for those less fortunate than you or your mates.....

[Xurbia]

Looks to be pretty fair, all in. Minimum wage earners get about $150 p.w. though, and it's taxed. Not quite the nirvana for those less fortunate than you or your mates.....

It's taxed because it's income. It's not meant to be nirvana. It's meant to help you get back to work. If you earn more you pay in more and usually have more outgoings. There are all sorts of tax credits for the poor.

Britain penalises the middle classes. When I couldn't find work in Britain I was told my savings were too high for me to collect any dole money. It was the only and last time I bothered to ask the country for a bean before I emigrated for good. It deprived me of savings and made me realise Britain is not a fair country. I paid in more than my fair share of income tax, VAT and council tax but was denied any rebates when I was unemployed. There is a much stronger work ethic here but Obama is trying to make the country Socialist, just like Blair and Brown did. At the time I was unemployed the Labour government were busy filling the country up with unwanted immigrants and outsourcing all the work. The Labour government could have regulated immigration, regulated outsourcing and given one of their own (me) a helping hand. They did nothing so I transferred my entire wealth to the USA at $2 to the pound. If people like me keep leaving Britain is going to be really screwed.