jaspers Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The Tour de France and the statistics of cheating… http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00vjqx2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The USADA guy should go for a job at the FSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinesin Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 regardless of the outcome, this is only going to impact the people who work for and rely on what the Livestrong foundation are and do. http://www.livestrong.org/ i hope it doesnt. You know livestrong doesn't acutally help fight cancer don't you? As a company it's desigened to raise 'awareness' of cancer, not to find a cure, most of the money is pushed back into the livestrong brand to help grow that. As usual it's about the money. Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinesin Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The Tour de France and the statistics of cheating… http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00vjqx2 The lance years in picture form.. Dark titles are drug users. Regarding the evidence it will be release once rest of the linked investigations are over. Under WADA rules the UCI has to accept the USADA findings, the titles are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 US Justice, don't we love it at HPC! So some hard nut at USADA has gone for Lance, put the frighteners on his ex team mates, most of whom have form. Testify or we go for you..etc. Some of these ex team mates have been banned themselves for drug use whilst at other teams. Some are not friends with Lance, never were. He is probably a demanding team leader and rubs many people up the wrong way to get victory. Many fell out with him over 'promised' bonuses, business opportunities, team selection etc. Some may just have a chip on their shoulder, it happens in team sports a lot, especially if you sweat blood for some other guy to win like in cycling. Some are out of the sport and making a living telling stories about Lance to the press. Not saying no smoke without fire, it's just not a fair basis for a legal campaign, except in the US of course. Let's see what the WADA and UCI think of it and whether US Doping can 'take away' Tour de France titles just like that without firm proof. As for retesting samples from 99, that myth has been on the internet for years. Again there is a procedure for testing A & B samples, if it's not followed correctly then the whole thing is invalid. Claims by a French newspaper that they got hold of the B sample should be treated with scepticism and 'expert' bloggers are just contributing to the Lance industry and do not mean anything. Oh please...don't worry, I get it, you want Lance's amazing story to be true. I would like it to be true too but I like the actual truth even more. There's nothing that says to be USADA are doing anything unfair. As someone else said, USADA are probably using the FBI's evidence obtained under oath. At any time in the process Lance could have appealed to the UCI's own arbitrator (CAS) which is what he claimed he wanted to do from the start. It's not USADA's actions I'm most suspicious of in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Woods? Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The lance years in picture form.. Dark titles are caught drug users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Under WADA rules the UCI has to accept the USADA findings, the titles are gone. As far as I know, he can appeal to CAS if that happens, the UCI's own arbitrator too. Obviously I don't know if USADA's "evidence" is any good but my best guess is that it is and any unbiased observer will eventually know Lance as a cheat going from his actions in this whole process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustYield Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 He was demonstrably first among equals and clever to boot. When the whole sport was this dirty, it seems churlish to drag a great athlete through the mud like this: to what end? There are, as someone mentioned above, great parallels to be made with the banking sector. We get older and a little wiser or more cynical whenever these things come out. The worst part for me was defending Lance in a heated conversation with some French guy around 2003 (he was certain he was dirty) without anything to back up my position other than what I wanted to believe. Winning the Tour 7 times in a row AND not getting caught for anything at the time still rocks, IMO. As you can tell I'm a bit all over the place with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 He was demonstrably first among equals and clever to boot. When the whole sport was this dirty, it seems churlish to drag a great athlete through the mud like this: to what end? Well, I guess that depends on your view on drugs in sport in general. It's quite clear that USADA's job is to act as a deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The lance years in picture form.. Dark titles are drug users. Regarding the evidence it will be release once rest of the linked investigations are over. Under WADA rules the UCI has to accept the USADA findings, the titles are gone. It's almost as if the cheating by taking drugs was irrelevant as "everyone" was doing the same so it was "fair". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipbuilder Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 This does seem on the face of it like an opportunity taken to step back, preserve the idea of innocence and salvage reputation by avoiding any public examination of the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankief Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Obviously I don't know if USADA's "evidence" is any good but my best guess is that it is and any unbiased observer will eventually know Lance as a cheat going from his actions in this whole process. What does that mean? 'My best guess' is as good as your's then. I'm not one of these Lance Fanboys BTW, but stripping seven titles from someone would require for me seven failed tests A & B samples, not the hearsay and word of mouth stuff that is circulating on the internet as 'evidence'. On that basis, you may have to disqualify the top 20 at some of the Tours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 He's taken the best option. Otherwise, he goes to court and admits everything, or lies and risks prison. We'll see the USADA evidence soon enough. I imagine it will be fairly conclusive and draw a line under the worst period for cycling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reck B Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 oh man. the more I think about how this guy became a celebrated figure for cancer sufferers & triumphing in the face of adversity the more I feel utterly deflated by what he has (probably) done. Think of all those interviews, endorsements, discussions and appearances he would have taken part in knowing that he had (probably) been cheating all along and didn't deserve any of his status, praise and money. I just cannot see how a mans morals can be over-ridden in this way for years and years - Will be insteresting to see what happens to Livestrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 oh man. the more I think about how this guy became a celebrated figure for cancer sufferers & triumphing in the face of adversity the more I feel utterly deflated by what he has (probably) done. Think of all those interviews, endorsements, discussions and appearances he would have taken part in knowing that he had (probably) been cheating all along and didn't deserve any of his status, praise and money. I just cannot see how a mans morals can be over-ridden in this way for years and years - Will be insteresting to see what happens to Livestrong. we need all cancer sufferers to know what he did...maybe he found a cure....maybe he has been paid to shut up...by big pharma??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doesn't Commute Anymore Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I remember at the time of the McCann disappearence stating some facts that, if proven in time to be untruthful, would greatly dent my faith in human beings. One concerned the McCanns and their story, Another was Lance Armstrong ever being proven a doper - after all he had this Livestrong outlook that inspired a generation to never give up and fight clean against disadvantage (in his case, the disadvantage of a nasty cancer prognosis). I'm not a cycle nut by the way, a leisure/commute cyclist at best. I guess I take a step closer to a total cynicism of people and lack of trust for others with this news, although the momentum had been building for a while towards this view. I strongly suspect the Tour de France in Lance's era had a "everyone's is doing it" culture, so he must have joined in to compete as well. It will be looked on like the famous 1988 100 m Carl Lewis-Ben Johnston final, where really Johnston was the drugs baddie at the time, but history will consider most of them at it. The real clean winner of this race was probably one of the slower finalists or even a semi-finalist : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadget Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 It's almost as if the cheating by taking drugs was irrelevant as "everyone" was doing the same so it was "fair". At the time to get to the top you had to be taking drugs. It wasn't fair though: the people not willing to take drugs were still there, just not in the top ten. I may be naive but i believe it's different now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashedOutAndBurned Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I just don't know with Armstrong. As I understand it he's been tested and tested agains throughout the period he was supposed to be cheating. So this is mostly about one-time rivals coming forward to give testimony against him? Hmmm... No smoke without fire? Professional jealously? Lots of people dominate in their sports. Messi for example is head and shoulders above the next best players. Shane Warne did things with the ball that were out of this world. Sampras and Federer each had a few years where nobody could touch them. It happens. Sometimes people are just freakinshly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I just don't know with Armstrong. As I understand it he's been tested and tested agains throughout the period he was supposed to be cheating. Marion Jones also never failed a test the whole time she was doping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turned Out Nice Again Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I remember at the time of the McCann disappearence stating some facts that, if proven in time to be untruthful, would greatly dent my faith in human beings. One concerned the McCanns and their story, Another was Lance Armstrong ever being proven a doper - after all he had this Livestrong outlook that inspired a generation to never give up and fight clean against disadvantage (in his case, the disadvantage of a nasty cancer prognosis). I'm not a cycle nut by the way, a leisure/commute cyclist at best. I guess I take a step closer to a total cynicism of people and lack of trust for others with this news, although the momentum had been building for a while towards this view. I strongly suspect the Tour de France in Lance's era had a "everyone's is doing it" culture, so he must have joined in to compete as well. It will be looked on like the famous 1988 100 m Carl Lewis-Ben Johnston final, where really Johnston was the drugs baddie at the time, but history will consider most of them at it. The real clean winner of this race was probably one of the slower finalists or even a semi-finalist : i wonder how you and everybody else is going to feel if / when Bolt is "outed" as a juicer? will cynicism then become infinite? i've been reading a little about doping in athletics since the olympics and how it works. levels of testosterone / HGH vary naturally between individuals so the athletics authorities have determined high maximum levels beyond which an athlete is presumed to be doping. but since these hormones are crucial to success at the highest levels, there is every incentive for competitors to juice as close to the maximum allowed reading as possible. keeping them just legal prior to testing is where the science comes in and there are specialized chemists who can help with that, such as one angel hernandez/ Hereida, who according to the NY Daily News has been associated with the Bolt training camp. It works the same way in cycling, with maximum allowable Haemocrit etc., within which competetitors are "legal". in a sense then, as long as you elect to juice, everybody is "on a level playing field". the problem is that athletes who choose to compete clean will never beat the juicers and more importantly for the authorities/ sponsors/ media/ naive spectators, will never break the sprint records set by juiced athletes in the past. there is a test that can specifically detect the presence of exogenous testosterone/HGH but nobody is campaigning for its general adoption. what did i say about cynicism? http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids http://www.bild.de/news/bild-english/news/german-sprinter-casts-doubt-on-bolt-5537790.bild.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadget Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Marion Jones also never failed a test the whole time she was doping. Exactly. These days very few people get caught whilst competing. In general it's highly organised and it comes out much later when the organisation involved is busted (BALCO in Jones's case) . For Lance Armstrong it wasn't "him" that's been caught, it's the entire US Postal cycling team, doctors, trainers, cyclists etc. He basically had to argue everyone at his team was involved in drugs apart from the one winning the yellow jersey's 7 years in a row... As regards to Bolt, i'm afraid i'm leading towards cynicism. Not becuase i don't believe him, but because now all the worlds best sprinters (male and female) train together in Jamaica. Hmm..... On the other hand you could use the same argument against Britain's track cyclists and i'm not willing to become that cynical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeddyBear Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 That recent programme on fasting was talking about how reducing HGH was vital for reducing risk of cancer and certain adult onset diseases. Something about the body only going into repair mode when low in HGH. It's just another theory I suppose but if these sports people are pumping themselves with extra HGH it looks like they could be severely compromising their own health. I wonder if you went back to have a look at how all the doped up Iron Bloc athletes of the 70s are doing now what the incidence of disease would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Another was Lance Armstrong ever being proven a doper - after all he had this Livestrong outlook that inspired a generation to never give up and fight clean against disadvantage (in his case, the disadvantage of a nasty cancer prognosis). I think your faith in Lance was very misplaced. It's still an incredible story, but there were enough rumblings even as far back as 2001. He's spent a career surrounded by the wrong people. You don't pay known experts in blood doping lots of money for training plans. Nearly all of his big team mates have been caught (indications are that all the others have admitted what went on under oath, which was then given to USADA). Lance destroyed careers of anyone who spoke out. His charity appears to be a scam. I like to think Bolt is clean, but there are some questions with the lack of testing, so I won't be totally amazed if we find out different. I would be surprised (and very upset) if Cavendish or Wiggins were on anything. I do think road cycling has changed. It's gone from systematic team doping to just a few riders secretly doing it on their own. The blood passport helps too and the power outputs have reduced dramatically. Track cycling doesn't have a culture in doping like the road. A few do get caught, but it's nowhere near the history of the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 They don't conduct random testing in Jamaica. So, all you've got to do is make sure that on race day, your levels are just within the limit and between races you can train, and thus improve ability, whilst fully juiced up. People are bonged off-their-head in Jamaica, with guns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juvenal Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 bonged-off-their head in Jamaica, with guns!. That's a harsh thing to say about race starting officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.