Concessionary Bus Travel

[gadget]

Well, it is a thread about concessionary bus passes. And the principle holds across other larger fish. IMHO the lack of ideology beyond "I want to get the most I can" is at the crux of why the UK is about to fail real hard.

I do take your point that if we "fixed" this issue it would make very little difference in itself.

Quite. It's a small issue signifying a bigger problem.

There are lots of reasons why bus passes for all pensioners are a good thing. And others why it's a waste of cash. Theses are never discussed though, people who vote like them so they must get extended and protected without discussion.

It runs through to the housing issue too. In the 50/60/70s housing policy was all about building more, ensuring "decent" affordable housing for all (though the designs could have been thought through more!)

Now it's all about doing your damnedest to make sure houses don't actually become more affordable ("it's my pension") and sod the people who just want somewhere to live. "Affordable" housing now just means subsidies to prop up the market some more....

[Greg Bowman]

Do you think everyone over an arbitrary age should be "entitled" to free bus travel funded by the taxpayer and be completely protected from exorbitant fare increases by those that have to pay?

No but picking on a few oaps with free travel ( which must provide a cross subsidy) when millions of them never go near a bus and comes across as spiteful and full of self entitlement youth nonsense. There are far greater wasters of the public purse.

I say good luck to my old mum and dad and their mates they worked hard enough for over 40 years

[Karelian]

OK, I do care really. But in the overall scheme of things, it's not exactly high on any list of injustices and unfairnesses to be sorted, is it? There's infinitely bigger fish to fry. You can get bogged down in minutiae and miss the big picture.

It is usually better to tackle a big problem by breaking it down into smaller pieces and tackling them one by one. Most people won't understand the "real privileged elite systematically suck the life out of everything with wealth ordinary people can scarcely comprehend" statement but will a topic that directly impacts them, i.e. rising bus fares.

The problem with just dismissing these issues as "piffling" is that combined with all the other piffling issues they become a big issue.

It's easy to shrug at the 20 pence bus fare rise here, 25 pence prescription rise there, 14 pence rise in the price of a first class stamp, increase in the weekly grocery shop, increase in energy prices, increase in council tax, but combined it all adds up to a lot of money.

[Karelian]

No but picking on a few oaps with free travel ( which must provide a cross subsidy) when millions of them never go near a bus and comes across as spiteful and full of self entitlement youth nonsense. There are far greater wasters of the public purse.

I say good luck to my old mum and dad and their mates they worked hard enough for over 40 years

In Cornwall the concessionary fare scheme cost Cornwall Council £7.6 million in 2010/11. 5.8 million journeys were made under the concessionary travel scheme last year. Scale this up across England and that's hardly a few OAPs with free travel.

[Karelian]

Money wise taking the car and catching the bus worked out about the same....you also have to take other things into consideration like.... carrying the shopping back, waiting at the bus stop, going and coming back at set times, missing the last bus home etc.....the pensioners get the fare for free, they have more time, some enjoy driving others don't, some would never go on the bus and never have done so, they step in their car and go where they want when they want, whatever the cost, the convenience outweighs any cost saving, they don't use their passes, until they have to.....everyone needs to travel sometimes, travelling saves money because you can get to places with more choice, more competition, more people, more jobs......when the cost of travelling and running a car becomes too great for more people, more will benefit from using the buses, but the buses to become full and viable to operate will have to work out less to use than running the the car.......empty buses disappear, full buses mean the fares should become cheaper, a full bus full of concessionary passengers is better than no bus at all.

The average remuneration to a bus company for each passenger on the concessionary fare scheme is less than 50% so it would be uneconomic for any bus company to run a bus just carrying those passengers. To make it viable the extra cost has to be loaded onto the fare paying passengers.

[winkie]

It is usually better to tackle a big problem by breaking it down into smaller pieces and tackling them one by one. Most people won't understand the "real privileged elite systematically suck the life out of everything with wealth ordinary people can scarcely comprehend" statement but will a topic that directly impacts them, i.e. rising bus fares.

The problem with just dismissing these issues as "piffling" is that combined with all the other piffling issues they become a big issue.

It's easy to shrug at the 20 pence bus fare rise here, 25 pence prescription rise there, 14 pence rise in the price of a first class stamp, increase in the weekly grocery shop, increase in energy prices, increase in council tax, but combined it all adds up to a lot of money.

It is clear to see that prices are rising.....play them at their own game, don't buy stamps, tell all your friends you are no longer going to sent Christmas or Birthday cards......cut down on travelling where you can, share journeys... with prescriptions if you need them, see if cheaper to buy over the counter if you can, or buy an annual certificate or better still try to stay healthy as much as possible........try to avoid borrowing money to buy stuff you can save for, bigger ticket items can still be got for less in most cases or secondhand in many more.....

[winkie]

The average remuneration to a bus company for each passenger on the concessionary fare scheme is less than 50% so it would be uneconomic for any bus company to run a bus just carrying those passengers. To make it viable the extra cost has to be loaded onto the fare paying passengers.

....like I said, I see buses running and hardly any of the passengers are fare paying, bus half to two thirds full....how can they do it ?

[Karelian]

It is clear to see that prices are rising.....play them at their own game, don't buy stamps, tell all your friends you are no longer going to sent Christmas or Birthday cards......cut down on travelling where you can, share journeys... with prescriptions if you need them, see if cheaper to buy over the counter if you can, or buy an annual certificate or better still try to stay healthy as much as possible........try to avoid borrowing money to buy stuff you can save for, bigger ticket items can still be got for less in most cases or secondhand in many more.....

I already try and do all this. However, as I don't drive I have little choice but to use the bus at certain times. It's very gaulling when I try and get on a bus to be pushed aside by a crowd of OAPs clutching their bus passes only to find that the fare has gone up again because I'm the only one paying it.

[winkie]

I already try and do all this. However, as I don't drive I have little choice but to use the bus at certain times. It's very gaulling when I try and get on a bus to be pushed aside by a crowd of OAPs clutching their bus passes only to find that the fare has gone up again because I'm the only one paying it.

....OAPs pushing and shoving to get on the bus, how impolite I always thought we were a nation who queued patiently and orderly......I do feel it is unfair, but I wonder if the fare would still have increased anyway....the bus could well be emptier and the bus owner might still not be covering his costs........when people walk out of their front door they begin to spend money, more people off to the shops spending money is supposed to be good for the economy, getting the balance fair and right is not easy.

[Karelian]

....OAPs pushing and shoving to get on the bus, how impolite I always thought we were a nation who queued patiently and orderly......I do feel it is unfair, but I wonder if the fare would still have increased anyway....the bus could well be emptier and the bus owner might still not be covering his costs........when people walk out of their front door they begin to spend money, more people off to the shops spending money is supposed to be good for the economy, getting the balance fair and right is not easy.

When I used to travel by train I often saw pensioners literally barging others out of the way in their desperation to board the train as if it was suddenly going to leave the platform without everyone getting on. I used to stand back and let everyone else get off and on and then sit on the fold down seat by the door that everyone had missed

[winkie]

When I used to travel by train I often saw pensioners literally barging others out of the way in their desperation to board the train as if it was suddenly going to leave the platform without everyone getting on. I used to stand back and let everyone else get off and on and then sit on the fold down seat by the door that everyone had missed

I know the one, the one that springs up suddenly when you get off it and if wearing a skirt that can often flip up with it.

[stormymonday_2011]

In Cornwall the concessionary fare scheme cost Cornwall Council £7.6 million in 2010/11. 5.8 million journeys were made under the concessionary travel scheme last year. Scale this up across England and that's hardly a few OAPs with free travel.

It is still half £15.1 million that Cornwall County Council has allocated to the Chief Executives Department for 2012-13

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=26976

It would represent approximately 0.7% of Cornwall County Councils planned £1,163 million expenditure for 2012-13

BTW the figure you quoted was a gross cost to the council. The accounts show Cornwall County Council got a grant of nearly £4 million from Central government to cover half the bill.

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/idoc.ashx?docid=a7c2d3d3-0c82-4d49-96d7-f1b679bc0cb4&version=-1

The ONS figures show that Cornwall has an estimated 138,000 people eleigible for concessionary fares in 2010. Divide that into 5.8 million journeys and it works out at about 44 journeys per person per year or something less than one per week. Add in pensioner tourists and the figure is probably even lower.

Figures from TfL obtained under FOI show that in London Freedom Pass bus users make roughly the same number of journeys by bus per week as ordinary fare payers but far fewer tube journeys

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/number_of_journeys_made_annually

The Concessionary fares formula is quite complicated but is designed to compensate the transport companies with the equivalent revenue that they would receive from passengers doing the normal mixture of travel. As such it is calculated using both standard and existing discounted fare mechanisms such as season tickets which would be used by most non concessionary travellers. It also is designed to exclude additional journeys generated by the scheme (how well it does that is a matter of opinion). However, I doubt very much that it has been loss making for transport providers until the recent formula changes. This is why relatively little noise has come from them until the current year.

Edited April 9, 2012 by stormymonday_2011

[SarahBell]

....OAPs pushing and shoving to get on the bus, how impolite I always thought we were a nation who queued patiently and orderly.....

My son's late morning to college can be fraught with old people pushing in front of him in the queue even though he's been there since the previous pre-9.30 bus didn't turn up.

(The twirlies not being able to get on before 9.30)

[Karelian]

It is still half £15.1 million that Cornwall County Council has allocated to the Chief Executives Department for 2012-13

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=26976

It would represent approximately 0.7% of Cornwall County Councils planned £1,163 million expenditure for 2012-13

BTW the figure you quoted was a gross cost to the council. The accounts show Cornwall County Council got a grant of nearly £4 million from Central government to cover half the bill.

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/idoc.ashx?docid=a7c2d3d3-0c82-4d49-96d7-f1b679bc0cb4&version=-1

Figures from TfL obtained under FOI show that in London Freedom Pass bus users make roughly the same number of journeys by bus per week as ordinary fare payers but far fewer tube journeys

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/number_of_journeys_made_annually

Yes, Cornwall County Council had a shortfall of £2.5 million that they had to find. As Cornwall has the highest re-imbursement rates in England (£7.6 million in 2010/11) they wanted to reduce this but the bus companies said it would make many routes uneconomic and there was a public outcry over routes being potentially axed so any reduction was shelved.

There are 125,000 Cornish pass-holders and a further 500,000 visitors who are entitled to use this scheme each year. Cornwall County Council considered charging a nominal fare or even a voluntary contribution but this would have been illegal under the current Act of Parliament.

This is the problem with the ENCTS - the grant doesn't cover the cost of the scheme so the only way for bus companies to cover their costs is to charge paying customers more and more.

[InflationMonkey]

Examining historical date from the ONS, which is used to compile the CPI and RPI inflation measures, UK train and bus/coach fares have all increases inline with each other since 1987. Bus/coaches slightly ahead, as show in the char below;

Chart of Bus and Coach Fares vs Train Fares since 1987, from www.inflationarypressure.com.

However since 1990 bus/coach fares have increases faster then RPI, see chrt below, but does this tell the whole story!

Chart of Bus and Coach Fares vs RPI Inflation Measure since 1987, from www.inflationarypressure.com

Historically UK train fares increased in line with average wages from 1987 until mid 2008, see chart below, which is a very different trend to that seen compared to RPI. Since mid 2008 bus/coach fares have increased faster then average wages. this is a very simular trend seen with train fares agains inflation and average wages since 1987. Very interesting.

Chart of Bus and Coach Fares vs Average Wages since 1987, from www.inflationarypressure.com

So until mid 2008 it would be reasonable to conclude that wages make up the largest part of the cost-base for trail, bus & coach fares as they have all increased faster than inflation (if the assumption that bus and coach drives wages had increased in line with average wages). It makes you wonder what the cause of the increase in bus and coach fares above average wages was since 2008, if it was not wages. Have bus and coach drives wages increased faster then the national average (maybe caused by a steady decrease in the number of qualified bus and coach drives)? Or was it the oil price, increased regulation or increased profit?

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

This is the problem with the ENCTS - the grant doesn't cover the cost of the scheme so the only way for bus companies to cover their costs is to charge paying customers more and more.

How about pulling out of this scheme altogether, and replacing it with a system of concessionary, but not totally free (priced at a level that would permit the average OAP to use public transport for leisure purposes to a similar extent that a working person on the average salary could, but not to take the mick), tickets for OAPs instead?

[spyguy]

Hmm, OAP special interest group active in posting.

Comments about paying for the roads is nuts. A road's life is 20 years. By then its dug up and replaced.

Lots of comments imply that this is somehow removing a benefit the OAP have paid for.

They didn't.

Free bus travel was a desperate tactic by Gordon Brown to try and build up a voting base.

It failed.

He expanded the scheme from local - which sort of made sense. to nationwide - which tended.

By the brainless tw*t, GB didn't fully fund the scheme. He also didn't think it through.

If you think its good idea, try living in one of the coast/holiday places.

My examples is the Yorkshire Coast - Brid up to Saltburn. Ill leave out Redcar for obvious reasons (for anyone who's been there).

Here you have a relatively small population along the coast. The largest population being Scabby.

The hinterland - Leeds, York, Middlesbrough, has about 10 times the population.

Come summer - and winter now - the bus scheme gets swamped with free OAP.

Classic overloads are the Coastliner - a coach rather than bus - that comes from Leeds to Filer and Scabby.

Arguments about OAP using the pass 'to nip to the shops, visit the doctor, keep in touch with their friends' fail.

Travel time from Leeds to Whitby is getting on for 3 ff-ing hours!

Anyone capable of sitting on a bus for that long is capable of getting a job and earning the fare.

In summer the local bus service to some of poorest areas in Yorkshire are entirely used by OAPs.

The local have to struggle in by walking or getting a much more expensive taxi.

You can sit on the bus and here people say 'Ohh we''ve left the car at the hotel and got on bus' As the bus leavesd a load of locals trying to get to their minimu wage jobs to serve a these wealthy pensioners. FF-ing ridiculous.

Of course GB, genius that he is, did not think people would travel out of their local area.

The local bus service is now getting slashed as the lack of subsidy means that the funs that went to sub the late night and Sunday services now go to the OAPs.

I'm all for free bus travel for the OAP. Just make sure they pay for the driver's wage, the fuel and capital cost of he bus.

[Giordano Bruno]

Do you think everyone over an arbitrary age should be "entitled" to free bus travel funded by the taxpayer and be completely protected from exorbitant fare increases by those that have to pay?

Not necessarily but I don't see why not. I think it's a good idea and I would still think so if I were a teenager but then I'm a socialist, not the New Labour type but the original type before New Labour.

Also before I had my pass I rode a motorcycle and I think other people are safer now that I've got rid of it!

Edited April 9, 2012 by Giordano Bruno

[Wayo]

It is still half £15.1 million that Cornwall County Council has allocated to the Chief Executives Department for 2012-13

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=26976

It would represent approximately 0.7% of Cornwall County Councils planned £1,163 million expenditure for 2012-13

Looking at their website, the Chief Executives Department covers several HQ functions for a very large council and is not the office expenses and salary of one person.

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/idoc.ashx?docid=a7c2d3d3-0c82-4d49-96d7-f1b679bc0cb4&version=-1

The ONS figures show that Cornwall has an estimated 138,000 people eleigible for concessionary fares in 2010. Divide that into 5.8 million journeys and it works out at about 44 journeys per person per year or something less than one per week. Add in pensioner tourists and the figure is probably even lower.

It is only 4p per day for every resident of Cornwall.... As long as such arguments are used to justify waste, we will never, ever, get the budget deficit under control.

Figures from TfL obtained under FOI show that in London Freedom Pass bus users make roughly the same number of journeys by bus per week as ordinary fare payers but far fewer tube journeys

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/number_of_journeys_made_annually

They have over egged that pudding. As they freely admit they don't know how many people using tubes or buses are from the 8m who live in London or not. Clearly if you reduce the price of something to zero, people will use it more. Clearly these figures are nonsense for trying to somehow suggest reducing the price has made no difference to how much people use public transport! How many London resident pensioners paid to travel by tube before the Freedom Pass?

The Concessionary fares formula is quite complicated but is designed to compensate the transport companies with the equivalent revenue that they would receive from passengers doing the normal mixture of travel. As such it is calculated using both standard and existing discounted fare mechanisms such as season tickets which would be used by most non concessionary travellers. It also is designed to exclude additional journeys generated by the scheme (how well it does that is a matter of opinion). However, I doubt very much that it has been loss making for transport providers until the recent formula changes. This is why relatively little noise has come from them until the current year.

The concessionary bus scheme costs in England alone costs over £1bn a year. But fear not it is only 4.5p a day to each of us! It does have some advantages such as encouraging operators to run efficient, popular services, rather than paying them to run buses whether anybody uses them or not. There is also a very good argument that people get less mobile as they get older and it is good for society to help get pensioners to the shops and stay active.

However these entitlements have got completely out of control, and with an ageing population the costs will continue to spiral. There are also many other local schemes like free bus travel aimed for under 16s in London and others for the unemployed.

I would back free passes for pensioners / people with disabilities allowed on buses only, and only within a persons local area, for example within a London borough or as far as the nearest large town, but no further. It could also be capped at say 12 single trips a week as most of them seem to be on smartcards nowadays.

Paying goodness knows what for pensioners to go from Leeds to Scarborough for chips every day of the week is barking mad, as is giving free bus travel for wealthy pensioners who happen to be holidaying at the other end of the country and allowing every pensioner resident in London free access to the entire tube network.

[South Lorne]

Tax credits where to help the bankers give bigger loans.

...good thinking ...all part of the Brown Clowns's master screw up...

[Byron]

As a pensioner and holder of a bus pass, I think the best answer is instead of issuing a pass for life, issue monthly tickets.Politically this will not be a problem but most pensioners do not need them and would not go to all the trouble of applying.

And I would like to know just how many pensioners are truly strapped for cash.I know some such as my Mother in law are short, but pensioners are 'untouchable' from a political point of view, an MP has only to suggest that his programme will benefit pensioners in some way and there is a knee jerk reaction to applaud.

Pensioners, regardless of how aged and ugly they may be, tend to be photogenic. After the last budget there were some on TV news bewailing that their allowance was to be cut, even though it was only to be frozen and the pension raised. Obviously no-one had explained it fully to them, but the BBC had them on the news because they could be anyone's Gran or Grandad and we are supposed to be concerned about pensioners.

Their income may be much smaller than when they were working, but their children are off their hands, many have paid up their mortgages, no travel to work costs, no lunches out, no suits etc. to buy, no whip rounds for Fred who is leaving, no office/works do, no keeping'up', no need to impress anybody. Cars last much longer with the reduced mileage. Even shoes and clothes last longer.

[sleepwello'nights]

As a pensioner and holder of a bus pass, I think the best answer is instead of issuing a pass for life, issue monthly tickets.Politically this will not be a problem but most pensioners do not need them and would not go to all the trouble of applying.

And I would like to know just how many pensioners are truly strapped for cash.I know some such as my Mother in law are short, but pensioners are 'untouchable' from a political point of view, an MP has only to suggest that his programme will benefit pensioners in some way and there is a knee jerk reaction to applaud.

Pensioners, regardless of how aged and ugly they may be, tend to be photogenic. After the last budget there were some on TV news bewailing that their allowance was to be cut, even though it was only to be frozen and the pension raised. Obviously no-one had explained it fully to them, but the BBC had them on the news because they could be anyone's Gran or Grandad and we are supposed to be concerned about pensioners.

Their income may be much smaller than when they were working, but their children are off their hands, many have paid up their mortgages, no travel to work costs, no lunches out, no suits etc. to buy, no whip rounds for Fred who is leaving, no office/works do, no keeping'up', no need to impress anybody. Cars last much longer with the reduced mileage. Even shoes and clothes last longer.

Yes but the holidays cost a lot more.

[corevalue]

Yes but the holidays cost a lot more.

No they don't. Pensioners and dinkies can holiday when the schools are in session

(I know you were jesting btw).