Confessions Of A Debtor

[shermanator]

3 years ago I took out a personal loan with HBOS of 15k and a few grand on a (platinum haha) credit card for a new business venture that went under; my fault nothing to do with the great recession, so hold my hands up. Anyway, I was initially determined to pay every last penny of the loans back as I was very much from that old school of 'neither a borrower nor a lender be'. Add to this the endless phone calls, threatening letters and (in house) solicitor's contacts.

Anyway, that whole attitude changed in the Autumn of 2008 when the banks went bust and people (property developers many of them) walked away from Hbos, RBS, Lloyds oweing tens of milliions and they themselves were bailed out to the tune of trillions by the taxpayer. It should be added, before this I was very much a Conservative free market disciple but that's been proven to be a sham by the banksters. So I managed to bring the outstanding amount below 15k and went into a Debt Relief Order as I had negligible assets and no regular income - everyone's creative with the criteria just don't take the mickey. When I said to Hbos that I wouldn't be paying back the money and was thinking about entering a DRO, they suddenly became very friendly and offered me substantial discounts as a 'full and final' offer. Then it dawned on me, besides firing off empty threat letters and making my life hell by constantly ringing, they couldn't really do much as my debt was UNSECURED. They then said my credit rating would be severely damaged....er it's already on a par with a banana republic now so it can't get much worse I told them.

So there we are. Not especially proud of it but look what the banksters (and their useful idiots in government) have done to every one of you reading this forum with their compulsary bailouts and endless QE. So if you have unsecured debts and are struggling, you're actually in an OK position but if you're secured they'll get you.

This is genuine by the way.

[LJAR]

I was very much a Conservative free market disciple but that's been proven to be a sham by the banksters.

Not especially proud of it but look what the banksters (and their useful idiots in government)

You point out the problem neatly in those two extracts.

Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you.

[EUBanana]

free market disciple but that's been proven to be a sham by the banksters.

Thats the nub of it all.

The free market is a good thing, but in industries that are in tight with the government it does not apply, except to the powerless prolescum of course.

[Kyoto]

I did the same. Just for £4k, but no consequences whatsoever.

Had a phone company and a gym company try to get me on some Ts & Cs too.

Told them to take a short walk off a long pier and nothing really happened there either.

If you have unsecured debts and no assets, just bin them off and move on with our life. It's just imaginary numbers on a database somewhere.

[uncle rogi]

This is genuine by the way.

a mate of mine was in pretty much the same situation and did what you did, he is happy he did.

you are only playing by there rules.

[okaycuckoo]

Problem is these are all losses for the banks, and they largely haven't fessed up to them yet on their balance sheets. Apart from the outright defaulters, there are hundreds of thousands of debt plans running in this country where people who owe 5 to 6 figures in unsecured debt are making token monthly payments. In many of those cases the difference goes into keeping the mortgage serviced.

One might assume this stinking barge piled high with unpayable debt will drift over the horizon and never bother us again. One would be wrong.

[General Congreve]

Problem is these are all losses for the banks, and they largely haven't fessed up to them yet on their balance sheets. Apart from the outright defaulters, there are hundreds of thousands of debt plans running in this country where people who owe 5 to 6 figures in unsecured debt are making token monthly payments. In many of those cases the difference goes into keeping the mortgage serviced.

One might assume this stinking barge piled high with unpayable debt will drift over the horizon and never bother us again. One would be wrong.

Yep, there is a monster hiding under the bed. It's just a question of when it decides to creep out and devour us.

[wonderpup]

I think a lot of peoples attitude to the morality of debt and finance in general will have changed in the last few years.

It's hard to imagine now, but not so very long ago Banks and Bankers were seen as the very essence of probity and honest dealing- contrast this to the image we now have of corrupt gamblers stuffing cash into every available orifice and you have to wonder what the long term consequence will be on the public's attitude to any moral obligation they might once have felt to honour their commitments to the bankers.

Personally I don't have much debt, but if I did I would take real delight in defaulting if I could- it would be some small act of revenge against the system and its degraded operators.

Someone once told me on here that fairness does not matter- but I think it does, because to a remarkable degree what holds our society together is not rule of law, or even fear of consequences, but a sense of shared morality. And the Bankers have demonstrated with utmost clarity that they have utter contempt for any moral imperative that might get in the way of making them rich.

So good on you- and I hope many others follow your example- at least if we strip a bit more capital from these f*ckers they won't be in a position to pay themselves billions in the future.

[Si1]

problem could be for some people in some jobs, quite a few jobs, a CCJ due to unpaid unsecured debt would severly damage your employment options

[winkie]

Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Democorruptcy]

3 years ago I took out a personal loan with HBOS of 15k and a few grand on a (platinum haha) credit card for a new business venture that went under; my fault nothing to do with the great recession, so hold my hands up.

So there we are. Not especially proud of it but look what the banksters (and their useful idiots in government) have done to every one of you reading this forum with their compulsary bailouts and endless QE. So if you have unsecured debts and are struggling, you're actually in an OK position but if you're secured they'll get you.

HBoS didn't pay your debt, we did.

[sugarflux]

I'm pretty shocked that so many people seem to be patting you on the back for this.

The moral, hard-working savers among us who have no debt are the one's paying the price for your mistakes.

I think an extra layer of immorality is bragging about it, adding insult to injury. You say you are not proud but a little more shame is required for your past crimes of theft in my opinion.

Borrowing money, spending it and then refusing to pay it back? This is the epitome of why this country is in the state is it. You are part of the problem.

~S~

[wonderpup]

I'm pretty shocked that so many people seem to be patting you on the back for this.

The moral, hard-working savers among us who have no debt are the one's paying the price for your mistakes.

I think an extra layer of immorality is bragging about it, adding insult to injury. You say you are not proud but a little more shame is required for your past crimes of theft in my opinion.

Borrowing money, spending it and then refusing to pay it back? This is the epitome of why this country is in the state is it. You are part of the problem.

This 'shame' you speak of- can it be monetized? If not, what is it's value?

[Xurbia]

I really don't see the benefit in trashing your credit rating over such a trivial amount. My company overdraft was similar back in 1992 but I found a way to pay it. When the housing market bottomed out I took advantage and bought a house, thanks partly, to my credit history. Short term thinking like this will set you back for a lifetime. It won't stop you from a getting a mortgage but the 15% interest rate and 50% deposit terms won't taste so good.

[shell]

The debtor should be forced to work to pay the debt back. No flatscreen, no fancy togs, no holidays, beer - all the money not spent on food, drink and the most basic accommodation should go straight back into paying the debt. Once it's paid they can never be allowed to borrow again.

Simple really. Anyone see any reason why this is not a great idea?

[Xurbia]

The debtor should be forced to work to pay the debt back. No flatscreen, no fancy togs, no holidays, beer - all the money not spent on food, drink and the most basic accommodation should go straight back into paying the debt. Once it's paid they can never be allowed to borrow again.

Simple really. Anyone see any reason why this is not a great idea?

British society no longer enforces anything, so why bother with individual debt? Criminals, banks and MPs laugh at the justice system.

[JPJPJP]

I find it hard to condone the actions of the OP in not repaying the debt

I also find it hard to muster any sympathy for the bank involved

I am aggrieved that the backstop to all this was billy tax payer who has, collectively, funded OP's default

[shermanator]

I'm pretty shocked that so many people seem to be patting you on the back for this.

The moral, hard-working savers among us who have no debt are the one's paying the price for your mistakes.

I think an extra layer of immorality is bragging about it, adding insult to injury. You say you are not proud but a little more shame is required for your past crimes of theft in my opinion.

Borrowing money, spending it and then refusing to pay it back? This is the epitome of why this country is in the state is it. You are part of the problem.

~S~

Oh get over yourself with your righteous indignation - you probably read the Daily Mail too. My main reason for posting the anecdote was as a guide to others here who have unsecured loans and are worried that they can't pay them back - there is very little the lender can do apart from trash your credit rating (which if you've defaulted they'll do regardless).

Actually, you very neatly encapsulate the problem with Anglo-Saxon Britain, especially amongst the lower-middle classes; a non-questioning faith in 'the system', whether it be banks or any type of authority. Anyway, thank goodness I'm leaving this country behind as my parents are giving me an advance on my inheritance and so I'm buying a place in Lyon - mortgage free to allay the oh-so-boring posters kvetching about credit ratings, mortgage refusals etc.

How interesting to note there are still many on here who seek to excuse the banksters, bail outs and taxpayer funded bonuses.......or are they too busy harrumphing into their Daily Mails.

[shermanator]

you have sufficient money to buy a house mortgage free but you are happy to spend other people's money.

Hey look - I'm not going to even try to change your attitude. All I can say is that if we all do this the system does not work and that you are merely a symptom of the disillusionment that has gathered pace over Labour's time in office where moral hazards, unfairness and corruption have proliferated and moral leadership is totally lacking from all sections of society whether they be politicians, the rich or professionals.

No, I don't sufficient money to buy a place in France but my parents do - big difference.

I'd have a small degree of sympathy with the bankster apologists if I wasted the money on holidays, designer gear, restaurants, plasma TVs et al but I came out of it with nothing, literally. Bread and circuses should be a good read for some of you guys - just update it with banksters, useful idiots and the mass media.

[Prescience]

Way back in about 1935, a certain gentleman asked my late father to go into business with him.

My Dad refused: and set up his business with another: since he wholly distrusted the first chap. As Dad told the story, "So X had a fire instead!"

When Jack Cohen (The gentleman of the first part) started his new business much later he called it "Tesco".........................

Whilst I would wholeheartedly agree that moral standards dictate we all ought to abide by our word and honour obligations, sadly such lofty principles only enjoy value if everyone reciprocates such integrity.

Clearly, banks present with lack of integrity and today, are a distant relation of a combination of Shylock and a loan shark.

As a very minor aspect of its major activities, my practice has developed significant expertise in fighting banks (Amongst others), on behalf of the "Little Guy": and in the past 20 odd years, the practice has saved clients in the region of £1,250,000 by robustly defending predatory actions by major banks and etc in debt enforcement and recovery.

Never ever allow delinquent debt to reach the point of hostile action: negotiate immediately you hit financial strain.

I am, personally, an extremely moral person: however, simultaneously I'm a pragmatist and a businessman.

Money and debt are simply a game: play that game.

The banks and shady financiers do: that's how they became rich.

And place the moral indignation into cold storage: in this instance it is misplaced and incorrectly applied.

[erranta]

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Police confiscate the 'proceeds of crime' off criminals.

Is it right the law upholders profit from crime as they are run as private companies?

[Xurbia]

Oh get over yourself with your righteous indignation - you probably read the Daily Mail too. My main reason for posting the anecdote was as a guide to others here who have unsecured loans and are worried that they can't pay them back - there is very little the lender can do apart from trash your credit rating (which if you've defaulted they'll do regardless).

Actually, you very neatly encapsulate the problem with Anglo-Saxon Britain, especially amongst the lower-middle classes; a non-questioning faith in 'the system', whether it be banks or any type of authority. Anyway, thank goodness I'm leaving this country behind as my parents are giving me an advance on my inheritance and so I'm buying a place in Lyon - mortgage free to allay the oh-so-boring posters kvetching about credit ratings, mortgage refusals etc.

How interesting to note there are still many on here who seek to excuse the banksters, bail outs and taxpayer funded bonuses.......or are they too busy harrumphing into their Daily Mails.

I wouldn't dispute that banks like Goldman Sachs are scum. You know what you are doing is wrong and yet you do it anyway. I doubt you have to be a Daily Mail reader to understand what is right and what is wrong. You borrowed money and didn't pay it back. Now you are leaving the country on a bad note.

Just remember that our underlying problems follow us around, regardless of what country we are in. If you can live with yourself then so be it.

[crouch]

I'm pretty shocked that so many people seem to be patting you on the back for this.

The moral, hard-working savers among us who have no debt are the one's paying the price for your mistakes.

I think an extra layer of immorality is bragging about it, adding insult to injury. You say you are not proud but a little more shame is required for your past crimes of theft in my opinion.

Borrowing money, spending it and then refusing to pay it back? This is the epitome of why this country is in the state is it. You are part of the problem.

~S~

The OP said he took the loan in respect of a business venture which failed. This can happen to anyone, He may have dealt with the matter in a somewhat cavalier manner and posted in the same vein but I don't see the need to adopt a position of moral superiority on this occasion.

Like you I have no debt and am a saver but we do need people who take risks in business and some of these will fail. I'm sure the OP would much rather have been in a position where his business venture had succeeded.

[shermanator]

I wouldn't dispute that banks like Goldman Sachs are scum. You know what you are doing is wrong and yet you do it anyway. I doubt you have to be a Daily Mail reader to understand what is right and what is wrong. You borrowed money and didn't pay it back. Now you are leaving the country on a bad note.

Just remember that our underlying problems follow us around, regardless of what country we are in. If you can live with yourself then so be it.

How is what I'm doing 'wrong', whatever wrong is? Let's look at it. The bank gave me unsecured loans, they know the risk of someone defaulting on an unsecured debt, that's why the IRs are so much bigger than for a secured debt. Secondly, in early 2009 Debt Relief Orders came into being, all perfectly legal. My point regarding Daily Mail is they represent all that's very worse about the lower-middle classes in this country. As for your parting shot, my 'underlying' problem is gone as the DRO is discharged - so while your money is being paid to shovel billions into bankster's pockets, I'll be looking on amused from sunny Lyon.

Edited January 19, 2011 by shermanator

[Fully Detached]

No, I don't sufficient money to buy a place in France but my parents do - big difference.

I'd have a small degree of sympathy with the bankster apologists if I wasted the money on holidays, designer gear, restaurants, plasma TVs et al but I came out of it with nothing, literally. Bread and circuses should be a good read for some of you guys - just update it with banksters, useful idiots and the mass media.

I owed a similar figure in business debts back in 2006, and I paid it all back. I've looked back many times, especially since 2008 and wondered if perhaps I might have defaulted instead. I still remember the sheer fury when I proudly called into the branch to make the final payment and close the business account - only to effectively be told to f**k off because I was no use to them any more now that I wasn't in hock.

But I still feel it was right to pay them back. Why? Because I went into the business with my eyes open, knowing the risk I was taking, and knowing what I stood to lose if it didn't work out. I signed agreements that I would repay the loans and overdrafts. In paying back the money, I took responsibility for my losses and my failures; it wasn't about the banks - it was about what I had promised and what I was responsible for.

I'm a capitalist, and I believe you take risks with the chance of getting rich or losing your shirt, and with that risk comes responsibility. The fact that the banks have been allowed to get away without that responsibility does not alter my view on that.