English Speaking Pupils Now A Minority

[Jadoube]

Nice spinning! Don't work for what was Transport House do you?

....

Spin is such an easy word to use about things one doesn't want to hear. And no, I work in the private sector, always have.

You might consider that the purpose of a newspaper is to sell papers, and that is often best achieved by printing things that are superficial but will appeal to the bloke you met down the pub. Businesses on the other hand sometimes find it a costly mistake to take decisions based on the bloke down the pub and instead look at things in some detail, from many different viewpoints.

I've worked with detailed data on people, places and customers for 30 years. I can be much more damning of immigration than the original article - if I'm willing to be selective about the data. Similarly I have sufficient data to make the opposite case. I happened to be in the middle of an exercise looking at data on the local variations in immigration and associated demographics, jobs, benefits et al when I posted

The key with decisions is to consider the things that don't fit your theory as well as those that do. Opinions of course need not be so constrained. In response to your specifics I simply suggest; look deeper and with a clearer eye. There is data that will let you build a case on both sides, if you care to.

[Sibley's Love Child]

See?

Not even you guys can have an open, honest and reasonable debate about a subject which has implications both good and bad for your country.

Government needs to publish clear and truthful facts about:

a. who (from which countries) and;

b.how many and;

c. with what qualifications/skills doing what jobs and;

d. how many on welfare

Always the voice of mediation.

To be honest, if you have the time and patience most London Borough's websites hold demographical data from the previous census 2001 (next one is 2011). In this way you can look past the Daily Wail headlines and find the truth about immigration in your area.

I was just tooling about t'internet looking for data pertaining to ethnicity in Southwark and stumbled across the Office for National Statistics website which allows you to 'check out' how rough your neighbourhood is - 'scuse the long address but i'm proud to call this home:

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk...Profiles=Search

The overall ethnic make-up of Southwark is roughly 50% White British to 50% Black & Asian Ethnic Minorities (BME). Though these figures are obviously skewed badly by des-res areas that Telometer is fond of ie Borough, Kennington, Rotherhithe & Dulwich. In my locale, the ratio of BME to White is far higher. Whether there is a correlation between high levels of immigration and socio-economic deprivation is certainly worth considering.

edit: Spooling

[JonoP]

We now add 'dinosaur' to the list of labels for those whose opinions/value systems differs to theirs - and THESE are the types who hotly condemn negative labels being attached to people when their culture/value systems differs to others?

Risible - as well as illogical.

In case you ain't noticed, prejudice isn't JUST about racism - although 'survival' is a label I'd attribute to the attitudes that abound on this subject - NOT racism. In fact in this country prejudice is more about ageism and sexism, but I can't expect you to be up to scratch on such matters. You were probably impregnated with this dogma years ago, so without the means to update information received, maybe you are the dinosaur, my friend.

You also omit to mention - not a surprise for one who is a hypocrite - that YOU feature on these threads, usually telling people off for daring to object to dictator-like measures being taken in this country.

I am not prejudiced against you. I view you in the same way that I view Victor Meldrew in 'One Foot In The Grave' I bet he read the mail and ranted about 'bl00dy foreigners' all the time. Thus you actually amuse me and I could not be prejudiced against someone that amuses me.

[Warwick Yellow]

Anyone using the term ZaNu Labour is learly relinquishing any claim to be offering a valid point. Do so by all means, but do not expect to be taken seriously.

It occurs to me that the school I went to as a teenager probably had a majority who did not have English as the first family language. Indeed, my middle school had a hole in the floor, allowing people to see the class room below. I do not think things are going down as fast as we believe, or rather they were not that much better.

Really? Personally as so many on the PC left like to term anyone who disagrees with their core 'liberal' beliefs nazis, racists etc I think a little 'if you can't take it, don't dish it out' entirely appropriate. Never mind the ponzi economics, spin and propaganda and authorian laws. That you don't take it seriously is your issue.

[JonoP]

Well there you have it everyone. The perfect attack on someone merely (and in my opinion), expressing pefectly sane, logical views and arguments on our countries pathetic immigration policy.

Pond321 (is this your address?), I actually pity you for becoming a victim of the PC nonsence which does nothing to debate and resolution but suppress and postpone it.

Errrrrrrr nooooo, Pond321 is not my 'address'. I live in a house, on a road, in a town etc.......

And when it comes to pity, I do not pity you because frankly I do not consider you worth the effort, but if I did, I would pity you for being xenophobic and being so scared of all the hype you read in the media that you waste your life living in a constant state of fear about what the 'nasty foriegners' will do to you.

But each to their own eh?

[Guest Parry aka GOD]

Always the voice of mediation.

To be honest, if you have the time and patience most London Borough's websites hold demographical data from the previous census 2001 (next one is 2011). In this way you can look past the Daily Wail headlines and find the truth about immigration in your area.

I was just tooling about t'internet looking for data pertaining to ethnicity in Southwark and stumbled across the Office for National Statistics website which allows you to 'check out' how rough your neighbourhood is - 'scuse the long address but i'm proud to call this home:

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk...Profiles=Search

The overall ethnic make-up of Southwark is roughly 50% White British to 50% Black & Asian Ethnic Minorities (BME). Though these figures are obviously skewed badly by des-res areas that Telometer is fond of ie Borough, Kennington, Rotherhithe & Dulwich. In my locale, the ratio of BME to White is far higher. Whether there is a correlation between high levels of immigration and socio-economic deprivation is certainly worth considering.

edit: Spooling

I would if I had the time right now, just to try and dispel both rumour and myth and highlight genuine issues of concern.

But a rational debate with genuine facts and figures is required.

[PrivateerMk2]

I am not prejudiced against you. I view you in the same way that I view Victor Meldrew in 'One Foot In The Grave' I bet he read the mail and ranted about 'bl00dy foreigners' all the time. Thus you actually amuse me and I could not be prejudiced against someone that amuses me.

Gagh. I'm sorry, but the ignorant misuse of words really gets on my nerves. 'Prejudice' just means 'judging before', i.e. before you know all the relevant facts. It is entirely possible to be 'prejudiced' toward someone who amuses you, especially if you decide early on that the fact they amuse you makes their opinions invalid. Prejudice isn't always a bad thing, either.

[Bob8]

Really? Personally as so many on the PC left like to term anyone who disagrees with their core 'liberal' beliefs nazis, racists etc I think a little 'if you can't take it, don't dish it out' entirely appropriate. Never mind the ponzi economics, spin and propaganda and authorian laws. That you don't take it seriously is your issue.

If you think their response is silly and chlidish (as I do), then perhaps you should aspire to better.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Attack and name-calling are all that is available to those wo have not moved out of the schoolyard - intellectually speaking. I would welcome some counter argument to my comments but all I ever get is abuse... and from those professing liberal ideals.

About as liberal as Stalin.

You called Pond321 a hypocrite earlier, yet in the post above you chastise others for schoolyard insults in the first sentence only to compare others with Stalin in the second sentence!

Clearly, calling people Nazis, Daily Mail readers, ZanuLabour or whatever doesn't promote rational debate. I'll try and be more wary of doing it myself if others agree to make a similar pledge.

[Sibley's Love Child]

I would if I had the time right now, just to try and dispel both rumour and myth and highlight genuine issues of concern.

But a rational debate with genuine facts and figures is required.

Agreed, a rational and - more importantly - national debate is required sooner rather than later. Antipathy towards immigrants and lax immigration laws will snowball IMO.

[Reck B]

Errrrrrrr nooooo, Pond321 is not my 'address'. I live in a house, on a road, in a town etc.......

And when it comes to pity, I do not pity you because frankly I do not consider you worth the effort, but if I did, I would pity you for being xenophobic and being so scared of all the hype you read in the media that you waste your life living in a constant state of fear about what the 'nasty foriegners' will do to you.

But each to their own eh?

I'm not xenophobic, scared or fearful of 'nasty foreigners' so, well done - you've managed to be wrong 3 times in your above effort. I'm sure today will present countless other opportunities for you to be equally as wrong, mr wrongo.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Secondly (and MUCH more importantly) the link is NOT from the dail mail so why bring that into it?

Suggest you go back to post 1 and try the link again.

[Guest X-QUORK]

I think you might have your sitcom characters mixed up, just a thought.

No he hasn't. You're making a habit of being wrong this morning.

[Furious]

You need to get this sorted out. The good times are gone for the UK and philanthropy is a luxury the UK can ill-afford now.

Stamps remain fairly cheap I think!

[I_Claudius]

From what I've seen reading this forum for the last few years I think a rational debate on immigration is unlikely to ever occur here; it seems way too polarised on both sides with knee jerk accusations of Leftie tree hugging Stalinism / Daily Mail Nazism flung about all too easily.

As usual I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle with the UK being neither a multicultural utopia nor a 3rd world sh*thole.

I find a lot of the immigration decrying here leaves a nasty taste in my mouth as I find all too often there's a nasty undercurrent of mealy mouthed xenophobia mixed in with the more reasonable raising of issues that urgently need discussing.

Equally JoeSchmo like knee jerk accusations of Nazism are poor form at best and pathetic censorial garbage at worst.

Both sides seem incapable of getting past any preconceptions they might have about each others perceptions, something that seems to occur a lot more on the web than in real life; face to face it's a lot easier to find common ground, on an anonymous forum it's far easier to get caught up in the moment and take your own views to their logical extreme.

[Patfig]

See?

Not even you guys can have an open, honest and reasonable debate about a subject which has implications both good and bad for your country.

Government needs to publish clear and truthful facts about:

a. who (from which countries) and;

b.how many and;

c. with what qualifications/skills doing what jobs and;

d. how many on welfare

Also,

Clear information regarding the immigration process, checks and balances.

Just what is going on? I would suggest no one knows.

Unless the real truth is discussed openly, during a recession/depression it will be inevitable more and more people will be drawn to the far right with the consequent effects on society. Ignorance of the general public is playing into the hands of both political factions.

Other countries have strict immigration policies even without having a welfare state open to their own people.

Let's be rational.

Mr P, you are being very sensible in this discussion and it is to your credit.

[Guest Parry aka GOD]

Agreed, a rational and - more importantly - national debate is required sooner rather than later. Antipathy towards immigrants and lax immigration laws will snowball IMO.

As clearly evidenced on this rapidly deteriorating thread.

You guys ever think that maybe the VI's on both sides have clouded the facts and arguments so much that they've acheived divide and rule?

My fear is this thing will snowball nationally as people look to blame other groups for their predicament.

My other fear is that complete trust has been lost in government and even with an attempt at rational debate with genuine numbers and facts, nothing will be believed.

Real mess.

[Furious]

Makes me laught to see people and politicians (not the same species), quoting National Census figures form almost 10 years ago, the next one is in 2011 and I think we're in for a bit of a shock...Uxbridge 85% White? Think again my friend

[Berk-hater]

Guess I might as well throw my tuppence in:

I don't think the issue is what colour people are. The issue is Britain seems to bend over backwards for those of a non-British culture, potentially to the detriment of the indigenous population in our schools.

[Sibley's Love Child]

Makes me laught to see people and politicians (not the same species), quoting National Census figures form almost 10 years ago, the next one is in 2011 and I think we're in for a bit of a shock...Uxbridge 85% White? Think again my friend

That's a very valid point there; I have seen a number of 'projections' which extrapolate data from the last census but that's about as reliable as getting estimated energy bills over winter.

The 2011 census should make for very interesting reading.

[Jadoube]

The bottom line is, when all the outrage, flinging of insults and clambering onto a self-righteous pinnacles- in order to throw rocks at us poor sinners - has been enacted.

Are the Migration Watch findings TRUE or FALSE? and what is the solution for the welfare of this country and its inhabitants - if it IS true?

AJ

The original article was data published by the mail, which has been interpreted into the opinions of Migration Watch. Its not "findings". I assume the orignal data is accurate. (Its govenment data so there are no doubt some who would automatically assume it to be false, I don't hold such views.)

The question with an interpretation is whether it also takes into account other data which may contradict the opinions. The interpretation by Migration Watch may, in my view, be incorrect in that it is incomplete. This is not to say that it is false, simply that it omits consideration of data that does not fit its preferred view.

Its a not a simple subject. I happen to have a set of data on various socio-demographic topics including ethnic origin and immigration on my desk at present as part of my job. If it were possible to accurately summarise it with a media sound bite there would be no need for me to be paid what I am.

I accept the figures published in the Mail. My professional reaction has an element of so what? When combined with the data in front of me I do not reach all of the apocalyptic conclusions of migration watch. I also accept MW's contention that it should be an issue for discussion - on the basis that some people think it a concern, and some may want or agitate for it to be a concern. However whether it is actually a problem in the way protrayed is a less simple matter.

When I gave some thoughts on this earlier in the thread I was instantly accused of spin and being employed by a vested interest. I share your distaste at such tactics - whether used again the "sinners" or against the liberal loonies.

I hope this response is suitably free of insults.

[I_Claudius]

If you think Victor Medrew and one foot in the grave is some how racist then that shows just what a Pi55 P00r education you had.

oh yes

knowledge of sitcoms is absolutely the best yardstick of an education there is.

[Guest X-QUORK]

If you think Victor Medrew and one foot in the grave is some how racist then that shows just what a Pi55 P00r education you had.

I think he meant Alf Garnet, go look that sitcom up.

Edit:Clarity

How old do you think I am, 15? I don't need to look up Alf Garnet FFS.

Victor Meldrew might not have been a racist character, but he was indeed a bigot of the kind the poster intended to highlight.

[Prescience]

Spin is such an easy word to use about things one doesn't want to hear. And no, I work in the private sector, always have.

You might consider that the purpose of a newspaper is to sell papers, and that is often best achieved by printing things that are superficial but will appeal to the bloke you met down the pub. Businesses on the other hand sometimes find it a costly mistake to take decisions based on the bloke down the pub and instead look at things in some detail, from many different viewpoints.

I've worked with detailed data on people, places and customers for 30 years. I can be much more damning of immigration than the original article - if I'm willing to be selective about the data. Similarly I have sufficient data to make the opposite case. I happened to be in the middle of an exercise looking at data on the local variations in immigration and associated demographics, jobs, benefits et al when I posted

The key with decisions is to consider the things that don't fit your theory as well as those that do. Opinions of course need not be so constrained. In response to your specifics I simply suggest; look deeper and with a clearer eye. There is data that will let you build a case on both sides, if you care to.

More nice words.

Now revert with hard data that disproves what I stated.

In case you have forgotten, the little insignificant bit about the length of time of paying in to any system, before qualifying for the benefits.

Unless of course, the business you work for has discovered a Magic Strategy which allows newcomers to retire after four years on a full pension...........................

Which would probably be called The Madoff Plan!

[JonoP]

I'm not xenophobic, scared or fearful of 'nasty foreigners' so, well done - you've managed to be wrong 3 times in your above effort. I'm sure today will present countless other opportunities for you to be equally as wrong, mr wrongo.

Mr Wrongo? WTF? Is that the best you can come back with? Are you 12 or something?