Scotland To Scrap Council Tax

[t350t]

If more people kept houses and land within families, the bankers would not be as wealthy as they are now, society would be much better off.

nail / head !!

Instead of taking out a mortgage, you leave home if/when you can afford to.

If your kids need to work in a different location, you rent out the room that they would have occupied (hence the need to be able to charge 'rent')

a family that stays in equilibrium with it's enviroment needn't take on debt.

The current system of debt exists as a solution to population growth.

[IMHAL]

Jeepers! I've never seen so much lather.

The real issue is that instead of increasing income taxes our NuLabour friends have used stealth practises to increase council taxes over the last ten years instead of doing what is right - ie. increasing a very visible income tax.

This means that the elderly now have more to pay as a proportion of their fixed income (their pension entitlements lag wage increases by a considerable margin ).

So this arguement is really a problem of taxation and how the tax profile has been changed over the last decade due to the cowardly practises of our "courageous" chancellor.

It is unfair to keep increasing the taxes of the elderly when they have fixed incomes - the workers yes - and if you don't like it vote for a government that will lower them and cut the bloated public sector.

I am in favour of much lower council taxes and a corresponding shift of taxes to earning as that is fairer to society. After all why should pensioners pay for investment in public services when they are hardly likely to be around to see the benefits.

HAL

[t350t]

Than pass the house onto your children now, while they need it, so your grandchildren can have sensible lives*. By the time you snuff it your grandchildren while have moved out and started their own families somewhere else. Instead of your children living in a one bed flat trying to bring up your grandchildren, why not move into the one bed flat and let them have the family home?

Not being funny, but what is the old person doing living in a house big enough for 3 people in the first place? Downsize to smaller place which you can afford to heat rather than demanding energy subsidies so you can heat a house big enough for 3 people!

Were not talking about taxing people for OWNING something, we are talking about taxing people for MONOPOLISING something they don't need for the sake of it.

What the old person with a house big enough for 3 people should do is:- rent out the rooms, and use the income to subsidize his offspring

* agree with this idea - but you can see being able to charge rent is helpful ? it allows you to pass on the space fractionally.

[TTID]

Landfills are becoming expensive - then make sure people pay for their rubbish based on how much they throw out (the economics bit), and try to psychologically or sociologically influence them through advertising, informing them of how good their neighbours are etc.

This madcap idea, bandied about by Labour, is a licence to fly tip. If you charge people for the rubbish that they put in their bin, they will just put it in someone else's bin, or worse.

The solution is to charge everyone across the board more for rubbish collection and disposal, then rebate the ones who behave virtuously. This gives an incentive to the individuals to actually work with the system, rather than around it.

Sometimes, a bit of cynical appraisal of the worst elements of human nature is sorely lacking in politics.

[RentingForever]

because it's a LOT easier to collect from the property owner than from tenants.

People forget that the introduction of council tax was a big new tax on tenants. Its predecessor - rates - were levied on the landlord; whereas the new council tax was payable by the occupants (tenants).

When the changeover happened there was no sudden rush by landlords to reduce rents by the amount of rates they were now not paying!

[dances with sheeple]

Jeepers! I've never seen so much lather.

The real issue is that instead of increasing income taxes our NuLabour friends have used stealth practises to increase council taxes over the last ten years instead of doing what is right - ie. increasing a very visible income tax.

This means that the elderly now have more to pay as a proportion of their fixed income (their pension entitlements lag wage increases by a considerable margin ).

So this arguement is really a problem of taxation and how the tax profile has been changed over the last decade due to the cowardly practises of our "courageous" chancellor.

It is unfair to keep increasing the taxes of the elderly when they have fixed incomes - the workers yes - and if you don't like it vote for a government that will lower them and cut the bloated public sector.

I am in favour of much lower council taxes and a corresponding shift of taxes to earning as that is fairer to society. After all why should pensioners pay for investment in public services when they are hardly likely to be around to see the benefits.

HAL

So vote Conservative then. A big recession will derail the SNP rush to independance IMO. At the moment the unelected one is the problem, people will vote SNP at any opportunity to give him the hint to just go.

[mikeymadman]

Keep in mind that devolution gave the Scottish Executive the power to increase income tax by up to 3%, and that the HMRC computer systems are ready to bring this into operation if needs be. It'll just be a straight %3 increase in income tax paid through PAYE or the self assessment tax return (by those who don't have a relative in England with an address they can use)...

There is a hidden advantage. HMRC (ie central government) will have to pay the cost of sorting the mess of introducing it out, and will even take the blame for the resulting chaos for the SNP. On the other hand, councils in Scotland will save money on admin.

Edited September 4, 2008 by mikeymadman

[Wonga]

Keep in mind that devolution gave the Scottish Executive the power to increase income tax by up to 3%, and that the HMRC computer systems are ready to bring this into operation if needs be. It'll just be a straight %3 increase in income tax paid through PAYE or the self assessment tax return (by those who don't have a relative in England with an address they can use)...

And what about the mass unemployment that is on the way.... or are we ignoring that bit?

[Mr C]

Everything is a resource. Plasma Tvs, land, human capital.

We do get taxed on BMW X5s. When I got mine I'm sure I paid VAT, then road tax, then fuel duty. If it gained value, I might have to pay capital gains.

Try telling a homeless person that housing isn't a consumption good.

But this is besides the point. Council tax is primarily a tax on services supplied. It doesn't particularly punish those with low incomes and a big house.

So what your saying is morally, no one should have the right to own outright anything which you claim is a resource, and must pay a licence (tax) to the state which must be renewed periodically.

At the moment I can buy a BMW X5, pay the one off tax on the purchase which is perfectly fine. BUT I do not legally have to buy road tax, I do not have to buy petrol for it, I do need to only IF I use it on the public highway! If I want to use the highway I pay the tax. It is a highway tax, and that is fair there is a big difference.

A house is an item which you own, or if you have a mortgage, the banks owns. It is not a resource if you own it. The moment it is owned it is private property which no one else should have the right to use. Same goes for the land it is built on.

Edited September 4, 2008 by stew007

[Guest An Bearin Bui]

Jeepers! I've never seen so much lather.

I think most sane people would be in a lather at the prospect of paying 40% more per year than what they currently pay in council tax. Our household would be about £700 worse off per annum as a result of this tax. Meanwhile old folks are sitting pretty in the detached family homes that they own outright, living on a final salary pension that I will never see (most schemes have closed and my employer offers a contributory pension so I will be poorer in my old age as a result). It's a buy now, pay later scheme that will go further to impoverish the age-group that are already bearing most of the costs in society because the govt wants to pretend that there's enough money to go around without more taxes.

It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that older people in Edinburgh consistently block housing developments in the city so that their houses aren't devalued. That is how selfish the old people of this city are - there was a proposal to build a new housing development in Liberton, a suburb with room to expand that is close to schools and a hospital, and it was blocked by the old fogies who enjoy the privilege of owning a large family home outright while people I know in their early 30s raise their children in pokey flats that they've taken on immense mortgage debt to afford. No taxation system is 100% fair and someone is going to complain no matter what but taxing the young who are priced out of home ownership to keep the old tax-free in the large family homes they own outright and live alone in just seems downright cruel to me.

[impatient_mug]

Maybe this in a round-about way is a good thing? When someone points out on the telly, and they will eventually, that if you let this go you will be hundreds if not thousands a year worse off, it may make my fellow young people start voting again.

[rogerthelodger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7594469.stm

Any idea how they will find out peoples incomes?

ever heard of the inland revenue?

never knew there were so many fans of the council tax out there !

the only debt they can put you in prison for !

Edited September 4, 2008 by rogerthelodger

[IMHAL]

I think most sane people would be in a lather at the prospect of paying 40% more per year than what they currently pay in council tax. Our household would be about £700 worse off per annum as a result of this tax. Meanwhile old folks are sitting pretty in the detached family homes that they own outright, living on a final salary pension that I will never see (most schemes have closed and my employer offers a contributory pension so I will be poorer in my old age as a result). It's a buy now, pay later scheme that will go further to impoverish the age-group that are already bearing most of the costs in society because the govt wants to pretend that there's enough money to go around without more taxes.

It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that older people in Edinburgh consistently block housing developments in the city so that their houses aren't devalued. That is how selfish the old people of this city are - there was a proposal to build a new housing development in Liberton, a suburb with room to expand that is close to schools and a hospital, and it was blocked by the old fogies who enjoy the privilege of owning a large family home outright while people I know in their early 30s raise their children in pokey flats that they've taken on immense mortgage debt to afford. No taxation system is 100% fair and someone is going to complain no matter what but taxing the young who are priced out of home ownership to keep the old tax-free in the large family homes they own outright and live alone in just seems downright cruel to me.

I understand what you are saying regading not wanting to pay more tax.....but equally you cannot expect pensioners (I am not a pensioner BTW) to shoulder an ever growing proportion of the tax bill via stealth taxes instead of upfront income taxes.

It never made sense to tax a property as they consume no services in of themselves. The people living in them do.

So the best remedy is to get a government in that is not fixated on taxing everything that moves in order to buy themselves voters and pay their cronies - in this way we would have lower taxes that are not wasted on state of the art NHS IT projects that do not work, quangoes and other NuLabour ****-ups.

HAL

[SelfDoIt]

But say for instance I am retired in the family home on my own land, the land/home has been in the family for many generations which I intend for my grand children to inherit, I have the right to stay in that home, and I should not have to sacrifice my families heritage even if I was living on a state pension in order to pay council tax.

say 3 full time earning graduates living in a house, at the moment they pay less council tax per head than a pensioner in the same size house, that is grossly unfair. Taxing people for owning something is wrong, taxing people on earnings is the only way

Absolute tosh! You don't have the 'right' to live somewhere that you can't afford. If you can't pay the tax on it move somewhere smaller.

House size is a reasonable measure of wealth, not perfect but reasonable. It makes more sense to tax people on their wealth than it does on their income.

I know too many little old ladies living alone in huge houses while couples with kids are struggling in tiny flats, this should not be encouraged.

[DabHand]

I like the idea of a centrally collected income tax to replace council tax.

Well lucky you, we already got a tax just like that, any guesses as to what its called?

l'm feckin furious. STOP TAXING LABOUR! TAX consumption and pollution or simply sod off out of it and let us sort our own services thanks, you pension suckling mediocre c unts!!

Christ, Adam Smith would shit.

With each passing day, giving up work and sitting on my frigging **** with my hand out draws ever closer!

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Warwick-Watcher]

So ban under 21s from buying from off licences. Er, so if you live near the border with England presumably you'll just drive down there and buy a shit load.

These people give mental deficients a bad name !

[bagsos]

Don't worry; it won't happen. The numbers don't add up at 3% (it needs to be nearer 6% to cover what council tax collects currently in Scotland). It requires the support of one or other of the main parties and neither of them will, even though the libdems have said they will support local income tax in the scottish executive as they wouldn't willingly do anything to boost the SNP.. Also there is neither the infrastructure to collect and distribute it nor is there any means to prevent mass migration to avoid it - if 10% of higher rate taxpayers (who are 13% of the population but pay 60% of all income tax collected) leave then it will need to rise to 8%, at which point Salmond and his party are toast. Salmond is as usual grandstanding ahead of a byelection, IMO

[Granite]

Meh, it may well work up here, if only for two reasons:

1) Council tax bands are comedy.

2) BTL's bumping up the values of their properties on the books for the last 15 years.

A quick example: I rent a 1 bed flat (no boxrooms or anything) in Edinburgh, not in the heart of the city. It's an 8 year old development, reasonably nice, nothing special.

My flat comes in as band E, as that's that the owner convinced people it's worth. Of course, the house value going up has no downside for him. That somes out at around £2000 per year.

Combining the salary of my wife and I, we'd only be paying £1110 in local council tax. It's not so much local council tax is a good, option, is that currently, council tax is a really badly run option. It's bloody hard to work out what your payments should be, and you hear nothing from the council until final demand letters come in. The council is currently happily accepting our payments of the council tax, while at the same time issuing final demand letters to the landlord. The whole system needs ripped down and replaced with something simpler.

[Guest An Bearin Bui]

I understand what you are saying regading not wanting to pay more tax.....but equally you cannot expect pensioners (I am not a pensioner BTW) to shoulder an ever growing proportion of the tax bill via stealth taxes instead of upfront income taxes.

It never made sense to tax a property as they consume no services in of themselves. The people living in them do.

So the best remedy is to get a government in that is not fixated on taxing everything that moves in order to buy themselves voters and pay their cronies - in this way we would have lower taxes that are not wasted on state of the art NHS IT projects that do not work, quangoes and other NuLabour ****-ups.

HAL

Why do you think that young people can afford the added tax burden though? Most are paying off student loans, have heavy mortgage debts (except for those renting), little or no pension and we have seen graduate salaries stagnate for over a decade now apart from a minority of jobs in the City, law etc. So young people are getting poorer, not richer, already. Taxing them even more just disincentivises them to work.

I am personally in favour of a land value tax, as advocated originally by Adam Smith - as he said, it is the only kind of tax that doesn't disincentivise innovation. productivity and individual enterprise. That could replace both council tax and the SNP's lunatic idea of a local income tax. Think about it: JK Rowling lives in my area of Edinburgh (I just rent a flat not a mansion by the way ) and her house is most likely worth at least £1m. She also owns an estate in the Highlands. The absolute maximum she will pay in council tax in Edinburgh is £2,338. I pay about £1400 so the tax burden on me is much higher - in that sense council tax is highly regressive. Under a local income tax system, JK Rowling would again be better off because her income is mainly from investments so her declared income can be whatever she wants it to be. I on the other hand will have my extra 3% tax taken off me at source so will, again, be paying more relative to what I earn. With a land value tax, however, e.g. of 1% I would currently pay nothing as yet because I don't own a property reflecting my lack of asset wealth. Once I did buy a house, I would factor in the 1% property tax to my purchase price and ensure I didn't pay over the odds. With a land value tax, JK Rowling has no way to escape paying. In Edinburgh she would be paying £10k per year, something she can well afford and thus would be taxed appropriate to her income and ability to pay. For pensioners who somehow end up living in a £1m house on a fixed income, the obvious solution would be to downsize to a more affordable place, freeing up the assets tied up in their home and freeing up large homes for those who can really afford them. Land value tax is the fairest system of all as it is a tax on accumulated, asset wealth rather than labour and capital.

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

The people who dislike landtax on HPC are usually people living in houses that are totally in appropriate for their needs.

Council tax is a form of land tax but has 2 basic flaws:

You don't pay it on empty property.

It is capped and banded.

If you took away those 2 problems, council tax would just be land tax and all economic problems would go away.

[Injin]

The people who dislike landtax on HPC are usually people living in houses that are totally in appropriate for their needs.

Council tax is a form of land tax but has 2 basic flaws:

You don't pay it on empty property.

It is capped and banded.

If you took away those 2 problems, council tax would just be land tax and all economic problems would go away.

Really?

Tax is stealing, stealing is wrong. This is why taxation should be opposed.

[IMHAL]

Why do you think that young people can afford the added tax burden though? Most are paying off student loans, have heavy mortgage debts (except for those renting), little or no pension and we have seen graduate salaries stagnate for over a decade now apart from a minority of jobs in the City, law etc. So young people are getting poorer, not richer, already. Taxing them even more just disincentivises them to work.

I am personally in favour of a land value tax, as advocated originally by Adam Smith - as he said, it is the only kind of tax that doesn't disincentivise innovation. productivity and individual enterprise. That could replace both council tax and the SNP's lunatic idea of a local income tax. Think about it: JK Rowling lives in my area of Edinburgh (I just rent a flat not a mansion by the way ) and her house is most likely worth at least £1m. She also owns an estate in the Highlands. The absolute maximum she will pay in council tax in Edinburgh is £2,338. I pay about £1400 so the tax burden on me is much higher - in that sense council tax is highly regressive. Under a local income tax system, JK Rowling would again be better off because her income is mainly from investments so her declared income can be whatever she wants it to be. I on the other hand will have my extra 3% tax taken off me at source so will, again, be paying more relative to what I earn. With a land value tax, however, e.g. of 1% I would currently pay nothing as yet because I don't own a property reflecting my lack of asset wealth. Once I did buy a house, I would factor in the 1% property tax to my purchase price and ensure I didn't pay over the odds. With a land value tax, JK Rowling has no way to escape paying. In Edinburgh she would be paying £10k per year, something she can well afford and thus would be taxed appropriate to her income and ability to pay. For pensioners who somehow end up living in a £1m house on a fixed income, the obvious solution would be to downsize to a more affordable place, freeing up the assets tied up in their home and freeing up large homes for those who can really afford them. Land value tax is the fairest system of all as it is a tax on accumulated, asset wealth rather than labour and capital.

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree - if I work hard all my life to buy a property that I want to live in then I will be foooked if anyone is going to tax it from under my feet.

The real answer has to be to stop tax avoidance by the rich - and lets face it NuLabour have been pretty shy about taking tax from the rich. Anyways the real issue is that NuLabour are over taxing everyone. Period. If they managed to control their spending we would most likely not be having this discussion.

HAL

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree - if I work hard all my life to buy a property that I want to live in then I will be foooked if anyone is going to tax it from under my feet.

The real answer has to be to stop tax avoidance by the rich - and lets face it NuLabour have been pretty shy about taking tax from the rich. Anyways the real issue is that NuLabour are over taxing everyone. Period. If they managed to control their spending we would most likely not be having this discussion.

OK that's fine I see your point. I'll take your side if you agree to:

=> Not ask for the state pension which you haven't really paid for.

=> Not ask for free NHS treatment... go completely private.

=> Not ask for your bins to be emptied, streets lits or policed.

=> Pay off the £1 trillion civil service pension black hole you created.

Edited September 5, 2008 by TaxAbuserOfTheWeek

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

(bump)

(So it doesn't get started afresh!)

[Potwalloper]

OK that's fine I see your point. I'll take your side if you agree to:

=> Not ask for the state pension which you haven't really paid for.

=> Not ask for free NHS treatment... go completely private.

=> Not ask for your bins to be emptied, streets lits or policed.

=> Pay off the £1 trillion civil service pension black hole you created.

I'm currently complying with all of your rules (private health care, not waiting for a state pension, etc) and renting a flat. I would quite like the freedom to own a house one day. When I have paid for it, and bailed out the country from its stupidity, I would be annoyed to be evicted by a decent hard working family. And so will you.

Edited September 5, 2008 by chute