Perceived Housing Shortage

[dog]

The discussion about future housing shortages assumes that the UK population will keep growing. But is a rising population inevitable? What will rising taxes, red tape and high house prices do to the population?

Today there is easy money to be made in the UK but how many of the recent immigrants will want to stay when the spending bubble (Government funded projects and MEW funded projects) comes to an end?

On Radio 4 this morning, someone made reference to a million pensioners leaving the UK. There is also a steady stream of people emigrating from the UK.

Surely the unpleasantness quotient of living in the UK is ultimately going to drive the population down.

[Guest wrongmove]

The discussion about future housing shortages assumes that the UK population will keep growing.

Not necessarily. It may just mean that multiple home ownership continues to rise.

[apom]

The discussion about future housing shortages assumes that the UK population will keep growing. But is a rising population inevitable? What will rising taxes, red tape and high house prices do to the population?

Today there is easy money to be made in the UK but how many of the recent immigrants will want to stay when the spending bubble (Government funded projects and MEW funded projects) comes to an end?

On Radio 4 this morning, someone made reference to a million pensioners leaving the UK. There is also a steady stream of people emigrating from the UK.

Surely the unpleasantness quotient of living in the UK is ultimately going to drive the population down.

the mail suggested that as many people are leaving as are coming in.

Also we know that the birth rate is below population sustaining levels.

We are trading money and skills for cheap labour..

[dog]

Not necessarily. It may just mean that multiple home ownership continues to rise.

A person can only live in one home at a time. If someone wants to live in one property and rent another one out, this is fine by me. Hopefully we might end up with with French rents (about 30% of UK rents).

If a person hopes to keep his second property empty, I suspect that it is going to become increasingly difficult (for political reasons).

[Guest wrongmove]

A person can only live in one home at a time. If someone wants to live in one property and rent another one out, this is fine by me. Hopefully we might end up with with French rents (about 30% of UK rents).

If a person hopes to keep his second property empty, I suspect that it is going to become increasingly difficult (for political reasons).

Weekend retreats ?

[apom]

Like cornwall, where in extreme cases the towns are 85% weekend retreats..

By people who can't afford them (see debt proportions)

Thinking that holiday homes have been bought from the spare change of wealthy london types is a little niave..

as is my spelling

[blondebier]

Hi dog, (that just sounds wrong!)

I quite agree with your statements above.

What about all the 20 somethings(maybe even older) putting off having a family because they cannot afford anywhere to live?

Generally speaking, it doesn't seem like people have many kids these days either.

I had 4 siblings. That's quite unusual now...

[dog]

Generally speaking, it doesn't seem like people have many kids these days either.

I had 4 siblings. That's quite unusual now...

That is an interesting point. I wonder what effect housing issues have on population growth. Is it causing people to have fewer children?

[since the beginning]

The discussion about future housing shortages assumes that the UK population will keep growing. But is a rising population inevitable? What will rising taxes, red tape and high house prices do to the population?

Today there is easy money to be made in the UK but how many of the recent immigrants will want to stay when the spending bubble (Government funded projects and MEW funded projects) comes to an end?

On Radio 4 this morning, someone made reference to a million pensioners leaving the UK. There is also a steady stream of people emigrating from the UK.

Surely the unpleasantness quotient of living in the UK is ultimately going to drive the population down.

It is a little naive to think that the UK is a bad / unpleasant plavce to live. Take a look around the world especially outside the tourist places. There are millions / billions of people that haven't got easy access to water food. For some people living in a tent and wandering down to the local pond for water would be a step up. The population in this country is probably unlimited left unchecked.

Edited August 7, 2006 by since the beginning

[dog]

It is a little naive to think that the UK is a bad / unpleasant plavce to live. Take a look around the world especially outside the tourist places. There are millions / billions of people that haven't got easy access to water food. For some people living in a tent and wandering down to the local pond for water would be a step up. The population in this country is probably unlimited left unchecked.

This response comes across as rather calous. Perhaps you are comfortably off but others in Britain are not. Some are living in abject misery due to debt. Others live in fear of their own safety. Many old people will go cold and hungry this winter. Britain is a land of growing poverty. Growing poverty is much more depressing than growing prosperity (even when the prosperity starts from a low baseline). Also, for a person on low income who has to walk several miles to the supermarket carrying plastic bags whilst others drive past in 4 x 4s, the pain of poverty is particularly acute.

For many, Britain is becoming a an increasingly nasty place to live.

[Rachman]

This response comes across as rather calous. Perhaps you are comfortably off but others in Britain are not. Some are living in abject misery due to debt. Others live in fear of their own safety. Many old people will go cold and hungry this winter. Britain is a land of growing poverty. Growing poverty is much more depressing than growing prosperity (even when the prosperity starts from a low baseline). Also, for a person on low income who has to walk several miles to the supermarket carrying plastic bags whilst others drive past in 4 x 4s, the pain of poverty is particularly acute.

For many, Britain is becoming a an increasingly nasty place to live.

Hang on a minute, have you been watching too much Alan Bleasdale ? Britain is not like 1981 and Boys from the Black Stuff. The people in Britain in relative poverty are not the doleites and the benefits people, it's the lower paid, but [even] they have the money to put a roof over their head, to heat their homes, to put food on the table - the problem is that they have debt - and let's be honest, it's a tiny minority who have incurred it to live.... they tend to have it because they took cheap credit and did not care that they were going to have to pay tomorrow for what they had today - the old joke about the grey box attached to the back of a satellite dish being a council house does ring true. If people are adult enough to deserve credit etc. they should be adult enough to stand up to the consequences.

I took a short cut through such an estate at home at the weekend, half of them had newer and better cars than mine - and these are the people complaining about no money........ - almost all of the kids were in branded sportswear, practically every adult I saw walking was smoking, there was a distinct lack of old cars around the place......... - I refuse to accept that we have a nation of people who through no fault of their own, can't afford to heat their homes or live..... we may have a significant number of people who through their own profligacy are struggling, but that's not the same thing.

As for walking to the supermarket, they don't - they simply buy an old nail from the auctions and drive it without licence, insurance or MOT not giving a toss who they drive into.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Rachman

[dog]

Hang on a minute, have you been watching too much Alan Bleasdale ? Britain is not like 1981 and Boys from the Black Stuff. The people in Britain in relative poverty are not the doleites and the benefits people, it's the lower paid, but [even] they have the money to put a roof over their head, to heat their homes, to put food on the table - the problem is that they have debt - and let's be honest, it's a tiny minority who have incurred it to live.... they tend to have it because they took cheap credit and did not care that they were going to have to pay tomorrow for what they had today - the old joke about the grey box attached to the back of a satellite dish being a council house does ring true. If people are adult enough to deserve credit etc. they should be adult enough to stand up to the consequences.

I took a short cut through such an estate at home at the weekend, half of them had newer and better cars than mine - and these are the people complaining about no money........ - almost all of the kids were in branded sportswear, practically every adult I saw walking was smoking, there was a distinct lack of old cars around the place......... - I refuse to accept that we have a nation of people who through no fault of their own, can't afford to heat their homes or live..... we may have a significant number of people who through their own profligacy are struggling, but that's not the same thing.

As for walking to the supermarket, they don't - they simply buy an old nail from the auctions and drive it without licence, insurance or MOT not giving a toss who they drive into.

Good post although I don't totally agree.

This discussion is straying from the original subject. The issue that I was raising was that Britain is becoming a much less attractive place to live and, as a result, people are choosing to move abroad in ever greater numbers.

[Rachman]

Good post although I don't totally agree.

This discussion is straying from the original subject. The issue that I was raising was that Britain is becoming a much less attractive place to live and, as a result, people are choosing to move abroad in ever greater numbers.

ta

My parents have just spent two weeks abroad (rural Ireland) - they have come back and are looking at upping sticks for good - they don't want to be here anymore - working class, worked hard and retired now - they just want away from crime, the dirt, the rising tax burden (even for them) the interference..... - like most leavers they are mortgage free and debt free - exactly the people who should be spenders, instead they will take their money out of UK PLC with them and go abroad with it. Which is bad - especially as there are about 250,000 a year just like them.

If I could guarantee education for kids and if we did not have family here, we'd be off too. Probably NZ, South of France or rural Canada. It's becoming an absolute dump of a place - I don't mind paying my taxes, I do mind what they waste it on and I simply detest the coming generations of trash that are dominating our youth demographics.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Rachman

[Als]

It is a little naive to think that the UK is a bad / unpleasant plavce to live. Take a look around the world especially outside the tourist places. There are millions / billions of people that haven't got easy access to water food. For some people living in a tent and wandering down to the local pond for water would be a step up. The population in this country is probably unlimited left unchecked.

I disagree. Nobody actually thinks like this. I think it's reasonable to say that the reasons why people want to leave are probably along similar lines to the reasons why I want to leave. The UK just feels much more overcrowded now. The pace of life is stressful. We are forced to live in service of the 'good of the country'. The roads are crowded. Many of us are forced to work far away from where we live. I personally find jobs hard to come by now even though I am a skilled professional. Houses cost more than I can afford. ID cards and increased surveillance are on the cards. I woke up this morning to announcements that satellite tracked toll charges on roads may be introduced which sounds like the cost of it will actually make it entirely uneconomic for me to work at all. The UK is just a depressing place now. It's nothing to do with poverty and how good it is here compared to Africa. We are literally being squeezed out. The one single reason why I am still in my profession is because I know that one day soon it may be my ticket out of here and into another country if I am forced to go.

[MarkG]

The UK is just a depressing place now.

Indeed. The future is a choice between being rich, being a serf and being a chav... who in their right mind would want to stay here?

[Qetesuesi]

Indeed. The future is a choice between being rich, being a serf and being a chav... who in their right mind would want to stay here?

Very well put. I suppose it amounts to saying that it is increasingly difficult for anyone not rich to live here with dignity... which may go far to explain the Gadarene rush to buy at any price.

And the question is a good one. Any suggestions anyone?

[Ethel]

ta

My parents have just spent two weeks abroad (rural Ireland) - they have come back and are looking at upping sticks for good - they don't want to be here anymore - working class, worked hard and retired now - they just want away from crime, the dirt, the rising tax burden (even for them) the interference..... - like most leavers they are mortgage free and debt free - exactly the people who should be spenders, instead they will take their money out of UK PLC with them and go abroad with it. Which is bad - especially as there are about 250,000 a year just like them.

If I could guarantee education for kids and if we did not have family here, we'd be off too. Probably NZ, South of France or rural Canada. It's becoming an absolute dump of a place - I don't mind paying my taxes, I do mind what they waste it on and I simply detest the coming generations of trash that are dominating our youth demographics.

I couldn't agree more.

This country is slowly turning into a festering scum-hole.

I blame Nu-Labour.

[othello]

Not necessarily. It may just mean that multiple home ownership continues to rise.

On what basis? You area making an unsubstantiated and ill-thought through statement.

[since the beginning]

I disagree. Nobody actually thinks like this. I think it's reasonable to say that the reasons why people want to leave are probably along similar lines to the reasons why I want to leave. The UK just feels much more overcrowded now. The pace of life is stressful. We are forced to live in service of the 'good of the country'. The roads are crowded. Many of us are forced to work far away from where we live. I personally find jobs hard to come by now even though I am a skilled professional. Houses cost more than I can afford. ID cards and increased surveillance are on the cards. I woke up this morning to announcements that satellite tracked toll charges on roads may be introduced which sounds like the cost of it will actually make it entirely uneconomic for me to work at all. The UK is just a depressing place now. It's nothing to do with poverty and how good it is here compared to Africa. We are literally being squeezed out. The one single reason why I am still in my profession is because I know that one day soon it may be my ticket out of here and into another country if I am forced to go.

I think some of the responses suggest didn't understand my original post. I agree with everything you say about the UK, I want a better life as well. All I am saying is that in parts of Africa, ASIA and eastern europe for example Albania there is a whole new level of poverty. For instance in Africa there are way more people without mains water than with. The smaller the world gets in terms of people hearing how others live the more people will want to move.

The UK is over crowded and the quality of life falling but is still miles higher than most of the world. Our poorest are way better off than the poorest in say sub sahran africa.

I have never been to Africa so am not an authority but am reading 'The Shadow of the Sun" at the moment and the level of poverty is a whole different ball game. I have however travelled extensively in South America, Asia and Europe and some of the countries there have some pretty savage poverty. People are prepared to walk accross Africa to get into Europe. If immigration is left unchecked then the UK population will just keep on growing at a massive rate.

[MarkG]

The UK is over crowded and the quality of life falling but is still miles higher than most of the world.

Big deal, given that few of us are planning to move to 'sub-Saharan Africa'.

The real question is which developed nation has room to take all the productive British people who are leaving?

[Rachman]

Big deal, given that few of us are planning to move to 'sub-Saharan Africa'.

The real question is which developed nation has room to take all the productive British people who are leaving?

S of France, Spain, Greece, Cyprus, USA, Canada, Australia, Portugal, Italy and Turkey if people I know are anything to go by - but they are all retirees. The productive ones (as opposed to the spending ones) tend to go to the US or the Middle East to earn tax free money (I do a lot of work in the oil industrY).

[Guest wrongmove]

On what basis? You area making an unsubstantiated and ill-thought through statement.

I was just pointing out that demand for housing can can from existing UK residents, not just from immigration. Do you deny that this is true ?

[simon99]

The UK population is forecast by the UN to rise to 66m over the next 2 - 3 decades. I suspect even that is an ultra conservative estimate as I dont think it takes any account of the scale of Labours open door immigration policy.

Edited August 7, 2006 by simon99

[Qetesuesi]

The UK population is forecast by the UN to rise to 66m over the next 2 - 3 decades. I suspect even that is an ultra conservative estimate as I dont think it takes any account of the scale of Labours open door immigration policy.

God forbid that NL should be in power for the next 2-3 decades.

[othello]

I was just pointing out that demand for housing can can from existing UK residents, not just from immigration. Do you deny that this is true ?

I say the picture is unclear. We know in yesterdays FT report that there are more nationals emigrating from the UK than any other country except Mexico. 4.5 million UK nationals have emigrated. Also, I am not convinced that divorce leads to more demand - may divorcees co-habit or re-marry within months of a split.