Tory rationalising for the absolutely awful legacy they have left since 2010

[msi]

Just now, Bob8 said:

Short of taxing asset classes and the very wealthy and surely no-one would want that!

Strang how many wail against taxing those that exploit them....

....Like Turkeys voting to keep the farmer

[24gray24]

1 hour ago, msi said:

Strang how many wail against taxing those that exploit them....

....Like Turkeys voting to keep the farmer

That could be why the middle class don't vote Labour, unless they're already on the government pay roll. 

[msi]

3 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

That could be why the middle class don't vote Labour, unless they're already on the government pay roll. 

You imply the Tories are the friends of the middle class?  Oh your delusion is showing

[burk]

8 hours ago, msi said:

Same folk that don't agree with the NHS on principle because its 'SoCiAlSt', but they scream to be in front of the queue with thier ingrown toenail and throbbing temple....

Its got nothing to do with it being socialist or not, it just doesn't fkn work based on the three experiences I've had this year with my elderly mum. Lots of staff milling around doing FA whilst you sit in waiting room all day speaking to said staff who don't have a clue, who lose notes, who seem to go out of their way to not be helpful whilst you watch them all day chatting to other staff doing also doing nothing.

To cure the NHS I would halt mass immigration to the country so,

1) You have staff that can actually speak and understand English, force the govt to train Brits rather than pay lip service to ths idea as they've all done over the last 40 years. 

2) No more health tourism (caused by mass migration) which is largely responsible for hospitals up and down the country being swamped.

3) Bring in means testing for those that can afford to pay, I know many my parents age in my family as well as friends that could easily afford a £150 a month medical insurance. Have a French style public / private system.

4) Point three would also cut down the burden on service as from recent experience many in my local NHS my Grans age go there for a social more than anything, were they to be charged they'd think twice about going there to moan about 'aches and pains' and therefore reduce clogging up the system.

5) Or Let it implode under its own financial weight and bring in means testing based on tax & NI paid.

[msi]

3 minutes ago, burk said:

Its got nothing to do with it being socialist or not, it just doesn't fkn work based on the three experiences I've had this year with my elderly mum. Lots of staff milling around doing FA whilst you sit in waiting room all day speaking to said staff who don't have a clue, who lose notes, who seem to go out of their way to not be helpful whilst you watch them all day chatting to other staff doing also doing nothing.

To cure the NHS I would halt mass immigration to the country so,

1) You have staff that can actually speak and understand English, force the govt to train Brits rather than pay lip service to ths idea as they've all done over the last 40 years. 

2) No more health tourism (caused by mass migration) which is largely responsible for hospitals up and down the country being swamped.

3) Bring in means testing for those that can afford to pay, I know many my parents age in my family as well as friends that could easily afford a £150 a month medical insurance. Have a French style public / private system.

4) Point three would also cut down the burden on service as from recent experience many in my local NHS my Grans age go there for a social more than anything, were they to be charged they'd think twice about going there to moan about 'aches and pains' and therefore reduce clogging up the system.

5) Or Let it implode under its own financial weight and bring in means testing based on tax & NI paid.

or you could try to understand the cause of the problem and not drool the soundbites that come out of the Daily Fail

1) English is a employment criteria for the NHS.  If they don't understand you then it's more likely your screaming. Try slowing down and being clearer.  Or try to post some actual evidence of non speaking doctors, eh?  The Gov doesn't want to pay to train Brits. You could build a 60ft wall around the UK and you'd have exactly the same problem

 

NHS funding and management is atrocious and causes the system to break down.  If a consultant is unavailable, then his entire appointment list is frozen meaning all the nurses, auxiillary staff have to redeploy and 'mill about'

 

2) Health tourism is a myth spouted but, at worst, costs 0.3% of NHS Budget.  You'd get more savings by looking at the use of NHS agency staff costing 10 times more, but that requires actual investment and doesn't have a gammon friendly sound bite for you to chant.

 

3) The NHS per capita is cheap, but isn't flexible to meet real needs without Big Government and their political overtures.  Get rid of DoH and have regional health boards that can flex in the private sector as and when needed. This kills Big Health but gives better outcomes, similar to Germany or France. The additional capacity can be sold back to the wider UK or to paying health tourists.  (Guess who put in legislation to stop the NHS doing that already to 'protect' the market)

 

4) Stop bed blocking by getting the NHS to charge councils to hold patients. Expand Minor Injury Units to reduce pressure on A&E and have nurses look after 'aches and pains'

 

5) You think a private system would replace the 'burden' of the NHS?  Put the crack pipe down and look at how well the private sector does in Water, Electricity, Trains etc etc etc. 

 

The NHS is being run into the ground by those with Political motives.  Blair managed to revamp the NHS and cut waiting lists from 18 months to 18 weeks by simply scrapping all the Tory 'market' innovations  - no tax rises needed. 

[burk]

1 hour ago, msi said:

or you could try to understand the cause of the problem and not drool the soundbites that come out of the Daily Fail

1) English is a employment criteria for the NHS.  If they don't understand you then it's more likely your screaming. Try slowing down and being clearer.  Or try to post some actual evidence of non speaking doctors, eh?  The Gov doesn't want to pay to train Brits. You could build a 60ft wall around the UK and you'd have exactly the same problem

 

NHS funding and management is atrocious and causes the system to break down.  If a consultant is unavailable, then his entire appointment list is frozen meaning all the nurses, auxiillary staff have to redeploy and 'mill about'

 

2) Health tourism is a myth spouted but, at worst, costs 0.3% of NHS Budget.  You'd get more savings by looking at the use of NHS agency staff costing 10 times more, but that requires actual investment and doesn't have a gammon friendly sound bite for you to chant.

 

3) The NHS per capita is cheap, but isn't flexible to meet real needs without Big Government and their political overtures.  Get rid of DoH and have regional health boards that can flex in the private sector as and when needed. This kills Big Health but gives better outcomes, similar to Germany or France. The additional capacity can be sold back to the wider UK or to paying health tourists.  (Guess who put in legislation to stop the NHS doing that already to 'protect' the market)

 

4) Stop bed blocking by getting the NHS to charge councils to hold patients. Expand Minor Injury Units to reduce pressure on A&E and have nurses look after 'aches and pains'

 

5) You think a private system would replace the 'burden' of the NHS?  Put the crack pipe down and look at how well the private sector does in Water, Electricity, Trains etc etc etc. 

 

The NHS is being run into the ground by those with Political motives.  Blair managed to revamp the NHS and cut waiting lists from 18 months to 18 weeks by simply scrapping all the Tory 'market' innovations  - no tax rises needed. 

Calm down mate, you'll do yourself a mischief and find yourself actually having to use the NHS, trust me you wouldn't want that.

As for your 'evidence or it didn't happen' level of argument, all I'll say is getting my mother treated this year for a variety of ailments, the worst being for a hereditary health problem where the specialists grasp of English was poor that the assistant, (white British) intervened to help explain was deeply troubling. Oh and by the way the problem in question was a Chinese heart specialist.

A little article about the subject from 2010 so even under Nu Labour it was a problem not too dissimilar to what I'm experiencing now. But it is from the Telegraph so trigger warning and all that:

Doctors lack of English, a threat to patients

Then there was the clown show in the west country when my mum fell and hit her head, that was 7 hours start to finish which concluded with my mom having finally lost patience holding bloodied tissues to her head having been seen but not had the wound dressed. asked me to take her to a local pharmacy to buy dressings to put herself back together.

All the while looking at handfuls of staff stood around talking doing nothing. If this was a private company it would have gone bust decades ago but because it's the sacred cow it is, it gets bigger and more unfit for purpose by the day

After the fiasco with the heart specialist I decided to get private insurance for myself.

Regarding your 18 months to 18 weeks waiting list reduction under Nu labour, it's  simple, the figures were fiddled. I'm mean who would've of thought the Middle East peace envoy responsible for a million dead in that region could do such a thing.

I even took the article this time from the guardian even though there were several by the right wing press but then you'd accuse me of, what was it, 'drooling over Daily Mail soundbites'.

From guardian 2001, hospital figures were fiddled

As for privatisation New Labour continued with PFI that started under Major unless I'm much mistaken, both blair and his health secretaries were very keen on competition and outsourcing especially if it made the figures look good, rather ironic given your points both on privatisation and waiting lists.

From the guardian 2006, Blair welcomes private firms in the NHS

See the thing is, whether you like it or not to fund finitely through taxation an organisation which is serving an infinitely increasing number of people requiring its use, (from latest figures for 2022 were 606,000)  and then to believe that has no causation to the argument as to why the NHS is failing is pure fantasy.

But then I've yet to meet a socialist who isn't a fantasist?

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by burk

[msi]

2 minutes ago, burk said:

Calm down mate, you'll do yourself a mischief and find yourself actually having to use the NHS, trust me you wouldn't want that.

As for your 'evidence or it didn't happen' level of argument, all I'll say is getting my mother treated this year for a variety of ailments, the worst being for  hereditary health problem where the specialists grasp of English was poor that the assistant, (white British) intervened to help explain. Oh and by the way the problem in question was a Chinese heart specialist

Erm worked in (non clinical) and used the NHS so know it's foibles probably a damn sight better than you and your single use case. Did you raise a complaint about your heart specialist?  If their level of English competence was as bad as you made, it's an easy claim and compensation payment - but hey you don't sound the type to do actual work when you can moan.

Quote

To the clown show in the west country when my mum fell and hit her head, that was 7 hours start to finish which concluded with my mom having finally lost patience holding bloodied tissues to her head, asking me to take her to a local pharmacy to buy dressings and put herself back together.

All the while looking at handfuls of staff stood around talking doing nothing. If this was a private company it would have gone bust decades ago but because it's the sacred cow it is, it gets bigger and more unfit for purpose by the day

After the fiasco with the heart specialist I decided to get private insurance for myself.

If you think the private sector isn't wasteful, why did they hand back services to the NHS when they couldn't squeeze a profit out of 'milling about' staff? 

https://theconversation.com/first-privately-run-nhs-hospital-fails-the-marvellous-medicine-wasnt-so-great-after-all-36077

As I said before, NHS governance is politically motivated to be hamstrung.  You did see my example of a consultant being dropped and the resulting impact - something I saw with my own eyes instead of just regurgitating the Daily Fail.

Quote

From guardian 2001, hospital figures were fiddled

Local issues and the staff affected were fired / paid off. Any large scale fiddling would've been leapt on by the Tories.  Strangely even they conceded the NHS worked - you remember Cameron lauding it on how it helped with his kids?  Or is a 'Socialist fantastist'

Quote

As for privatisation New Labour continued with PFI that started under Major unless I'm much mistaken, both blair and his health secretaries were very keen on competition and outsourcing especially if it made the figures look good, rather ironic given your points both on privatisation and waiting lists.

Yawn.  NuLabour was contractually tied to  PPP, so Blairs altered it to PFI to win over the city.  It's called politics. Personally I don't agree with it, but it pulled the rug under the Tories and gave him 2 landslides so it worked for him.  Blair wanted NHS to commission the private sector to give capacity, not to take it over and charge through the nose.  That helped push waiting lists down as they were done on a regional basis.  Nothing more revolutionary than what is already done in Germany or France, but those are socialist hell holes according to your throbbing temple.

Quote

See the thing is, whether you like it or not to fund finitely through taxation an organisation which is serving an infinitely increasing number of people requiring its use, (from latest figures for 2022 were 606,000)  and then to believe that has no causation to the argument as to why the NHS is failing is pure fantasy.

But then I've yet to meet a socialist who isn't a fantasist?

Ah the appeal to infinity argument as used by the Gammonatti when they cry foul that their sound bites are being called out. The largest cohort of NHS users are the over 85s, followed by the over 65s.  Growing but hardly infinite.  Given that cohort take a larger and larger slice of the NHS pie, is it any wonder that services for everyone including your mother suffer?

 

If you want a grown up conversation about the NHS, I welcome it but you need to grow up and put away the comforting sound bite tropes and look at actual data and evidence.

 

Oh, go and define socialist for me.  Everyone who calls me that fails and shows how weak they really are....

[burk]

1 hour ago, msi said:

Erm worked in (non clinical) and used the NHS so know it's foibles probably a damn sight better than you and your single use case. Did you raise a complaint about your heart specialist?  If their level of English competence was as bad as you made, it's an easy claim and compensation payment - but hey you don't sound the type to do actual work when you can moan.

If you think the private sector isn't wasteful, why did they hand back services to the NHS when they couldn't squeeze a profit out of 'milling about' staff? 

https://theconversation.com/first-privately-run-nhs-hospital-fails-the-marvellous-medicine-wasnt-so-great-after-all-36077

As I said before, NHS governance is politically motivated to be hamstrung.  You did see my example of a consultant being dropped and the resulting impact - something I saw with my own eyes instead of just regurgitating the Daily Fail.

Local issues and the staff affected were fired / paid off. Any large scale fiddling would've been leapt on by the Tories.  Strangely even they conceded the NHS worked - you remember Cameron lauding it on how it helped with his kids?  Or is a 'Socialist fantastist'

Yawn.  NuLabour was contractually tied to  PPP, so Blairs altered it to PFI to win over the city.  It's called politics. Personally I don't agree with it, but it pulled the rug under the Tories and gave him 2 landslides so it worked for him.  Blair wanted NHS to commission the private sector to give capacity, not to take it over and charge through the nose.  That helped push waiting lists down as they were done on a regional basis.  Nothing more revolutionary than what is already done in Germany or France, but those are socialist hell holes according to your throbbing temple.

Ah the appeal to infinity argument as used by the Gammonatti when they cry foul that their sound bites are being called out. The largest cohort of NHS users are the over 85s, followed by the over 65s.  Growing but hardly infinite.  Given that cohort take a larger and larger slice of the NHS pie, is it any wonder that services for everyone including your mother suffer?

 

If you want a grown up conversation about the NHS, I welcome it but you need to grow up and put away the comforting sound bite tropes and look at actual data and evidence.

 

Oh, go and define socialist for me.  Everyone who calls me that fails and shows how weak they really are....

Sounds like you should get your blood pressure checked, you're very angry? 

You could go private like me, just a thought?

[mrpleasant]

22 hours ago, Si1 said:

Well they are. But kicking them out periodically helps them to focus!

The last months of this Tory government will be like watching the final scenes of an action movie, with them desperately cutting the wires of the democratic machine while the counter ticks down to the next GE.

[Si1]

4 hours ago, mrpleasant said:

The last months of this Tory government will be like watching the final scenes of an action movie, with them desperately cutting the wires of the democratic machine while the counter ticks down to the next GE.

They already are.

 

 

[winkie]

They don't care about much really......but they do care about your vote, vote for more of the same please, you know you want to........13 years is not enough time to get anything done, need more time and your money.....sunlit uplands, don't miss out, you might regret it.

[abbot26]

15 hours ago, burk said:

Sounds like you should get your blood pressure checked, you're very angry? 

You could go private like me, just a thought?

It’s always angry because it’s a tone deaf lick spittle that regularly wets it’s own pants

[burk]

1 hour ago, abbot26 said:

It’s always angry because it’s a tone deaf lick spittle that regularly wets it’s own pants

Yes he does represent that demographic in this country that refuses to believe what's staring them in the face. Fwiw alot of my circle hold a similar view to current affairs, it's unsurprising they too are all on the govt teet, coppers, teachers, nurses etc. It's either (like this very forum) the boomers fault, the Tories fault, big nasty corporations fault etc etc. Just seem to live in a bubble/echo chamber.

As mentioned previously, with over 500,000 migrants coming here every year all wanting to use the service at some point, will result in its privatisation. There's no other way the NHS will survive other than bankruptcy of the state given how much printy printy has gone on. Plus

When I mentioned this to a copper friend of mine, he looked horrified, this is a guy who works 4 days on 4 off suffers with PTSD apparently and has had large periods of time off fully paid and still doesn't understand how much in bad shape public sector finances are.

This after listening to him humble bragging about his earnings and all the time off he gets. And how at any one time about 12-15% of his force of off sick with stress fully paid, the more I've realised it's beyond unsustainable.

Again if this was a private company you'd call in the auditors and start cutting out the deadwood, but it's a sacred cow so we just feed the blob instead.

Add to this, the current pay disputes and imo we're are fully on our way to collapse.........

[abbot26]

5 hours ago, burk said:

Yes he does represent that demographic in this country that refuses to believe what's staring them in the face. Fwiw alot of my circle hold a similar view to current affairs, it's unsurprising they too are all on the govt teet, coppers, teachers, nurses etc. It's either (like this very forum) the boomers fault, the Tories fault, big nasty corporations fault etc etc. Just seem to live in a bubble/echo chamber.

As mentioned previously, with over 500,000 migrants coming here every year all wanting to use the service at some point, will result in its privatisation. There's no other way the NHS will survive other than bankruptcy of the state given how much printy printy has gone on. Plus

When I mentioned this to a copper friend of mine, he looked horrified, this is a guy who works 4 days on 4 off suffers with PTSD apparently and has had large periods of time off fully paid and still doesn't understand how much in bad shape public sector finances are.

This after listening to him humble bragging about his earnings and all the time off he gets. And how at any one time about 12-15% of his force of off sick with stress fully paid, the more I've realised it's beyond unsustainable.

Again if this was a private company you'd call in the auditors and start cutting out the deadwood, but it's a sacred cow so we just feed the blob instead.

Add to this, the current pay disputes and imo we're are fully on our way to collapse.........

Great points, isn’t it strange how some absolutely cannot see the obvious.

In the meantime I’ll carry on calling out the bed wetter every time it talks shite

[Insane]

5 hours ago, burk said:

This after listening to him humble bragging about his earnings and all the time off he gets. And how at any one time about 12-15% of his force of off sick with stress fully paid, the more I've realised it's beyond unsustainable.

Again if this was a private company you'd call in the auditors and start cutting out the deadwood, but it's a sacred cow so we just feed the blob instead.

Add to this, the current pay disputes and imo we're are fully on our way to collapse.........

Mark Rowley the head of the Met Police made a statement recently saying that they had about 150 Police that are so bad they cannot let them near the public (did not give any reasons why) that they cannot get rid of.