Solicitors are up to no good

[sammersmith]

Bit of a weird one this that i'm after some advice on, particularly from anyone with a legal background. 

House i'm interested in was granted probate to solicitors acting as the executors of someone who who died in 2014. Two of the partners have been listed as the proprietors on LR since then and have had the house up for sale at least 6 times over the years. One of the listings talks about an uplift clause the owners want to add. There's also a self employed removal company based at the house, where the chap has been listed on electoral roll since 2014. However house is basically derelict and no one is living there. 

I've downloaded the will of the deceased and her husband, who both used the same solicitor. The husband's will is dated 1 year before he died and he gives the house to wife. The wife's will is dated 7 years before husband died and 19 years before she died. In this will she explicitly disallows any inheritance to her children, but instead asks for the residual of her estate after 'executive expenses' to be split between 2 catholic priests. These priests died around the same time she did and (being catholic priests) have no descendants . 

Given the above, what are the solicitors up to and to what client are they acting for? I have four theories: 

1. They are over interpreting the 'executive expenses' clause of the will to bill for work involved in marketing the property and drafting an uplift clause (to benefit who?), but will frustrate any sale until they've fully exhausted their potential costs that they can extract from the proceeds
2. They are hoping to claim adverse possession of the property if it still fails to sell
3. They are incompetent and selling this house is not a priority for them if they have more time - critical work
4. The original will is either fraudulent or should have been superseded. Seems unlikely, but the way the will is drafted is extremely convenient for the solicitors and it's apparently in their interest to stall. 

Is there anything I can do in this situation to force a sale on them and get this uplift clause they seem so keen on, kicked out? My first thought was to send them a written offer and provide enough information to let them know that 'i know what you're up to ;)'. Failing that I thought to contact the children, though i'm very surprised they didn't contest this will given the beneficiaries are long dead. Failing both those options the house will likely be listed again soon and i'll attempt to get a viewing, though I tried that last time with no luck. 

Any thoughts or opinions appreciated

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

The most likely explanation is that there is a legal dispute from the children. 

The priests perhaps either refused the money or died before, in which case their interest has lapsed. And if they have no kids there is definitely no claim.

The kids on the other hand might look to disprove the mother was of sound mind. If the will is invalid, then they can inherit. The solicitors may just be covering their backsides and claiming on going probate fees.

When I've looked at properties in the past, I came across a couple of these type of situations. Sometimes it was 2 parties, one wanting to sell, the other only wanting to sell for an unreasonable price.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Mikhail Liebenstein

[VancouverGuy]

I've no idea. But it sure makes an excellent exam question!

[24gray24]

They can't find the beneficiaries of the Catholic priests? 

So can't sell it?

Odd the executors haven't rented it out.

[Pop321]

6 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

The most likely explanation is that there is a legal dispute from the children. 

The priests perhaps either refused the money or died before, in which case their interest has lapsed. And if they have no kids there is definitely no claim.

The kids on the other hand might look to disprove the mother was of sound mind. If the will is invalid, then they can inherit. The solicitors may just be covering their backsides and claiming on going probate fees.

When I've looked at properties in the past, I came across a couple of these type of situations. Sometimes it was 2 parties, one wanting to sell, the other only wanting to sell for an unreasonable price.

Yep, my thoughts exactly. In the absence of living recipients of the proceeds the kids will have used ‘intestate law’ and be claiming the proceeds. 

The kids may have also insisted on the uplift clause...or certainly the ‘unknown beneficiary’ rather than a whim of the solicitors. Sounds like a difficult group of kids who are either greedy or begrudgingly are making things difficult for one another....some of the kids may rather see the estate disappear in fees illustrating that their mother’s wishes have ‘wasted’ her life savings and they don’t care. Lots of emotions at play here. 

I would submit an offer if you are so inclined....but wouldn’t infer something illegal or dishonest is going on. Do that and the solicitors (who are likely acting in good faith) and the beneficiaries will likely ignore the offer.

Personally (if it’s a bargain or your dream place) I would keep my foot in the door, let them know you are interested and regularly keep in contact ie every 2 months. And I would emotionally detach myself from it and expect it to come to nothing...without burning bridges. 

[sammersmith]

9 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

The kids on the other hand might look to disprove the mother was of sound mind. If the will is invalid, then they can inherit. The solicitors may just be covering their backsides and claiming on going probate fees.

I suspect something like this is happening but i don't know how they could get away with it unchallenged for this long.

5 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

So can't sell it?

They've certainly been trying to sell it, at least it has been marketed by agents and even been in an auction once. The asking price is not unreasonable but the uplift clause would put people off / prevent use of a mortgage. 

5 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Odd the executors haven't rented it out.

They have kind of rented it out. There is this removal firm based at the address (house clearances etc) but it seems to be just their dumping ground. The house is clearly not lived in and the garden is very overgrown. I doubt they're paying rent but there might be some agreement to cover council tax or such like. 

6 hours ago, VancouverGuy said:

I've no idea. But it sure makes an excellent exam question!

it certainly does!  

[sammersmith]

2 hours ago, Pop321 said:

Yep, my thoughts exactly. In the absence of living recipients of the proceeds the kids will have used ‘intestate law’ and be claiming the proceeds. 

The kids may have also insisted on the uplift clause...or certainly the ‘unknown beneficiary’ rather than a whim of the solicitors. Sounds like a difficult group of kids who are either greedy or begrudgingly are making things difficult for one another....some of the kids may rather see the estate disappear in fees illustrating that their mother’s wishes have ‘wasted’ her life savings and they don’t care. Lots of emotions at play here.

I wondered this, but the timeframes seem exceptionally long to be arguing about it whilst the house remains under the solicitor names and in dire need of renovation. There is rubbish outside that was present in the original RM pictures that's still there today. No one seems bothered to move it. 

2 hours ago, Pop321 said:

I would submit an offer if you are so inclined....but wouldn’t infer something illegal or dishonest is going on. Do that and the solicitors (who are likely acting in good faith) and the beneficiaries will likely ignore the offer.

Yes, that's good advice. I was considering submitting the hostile offer through a 'buying agent' so that the option to offer again under my real name remains, but it's probably best to just go in clear and not confrontational. 

3 hours ago, Pop321 said:

Personally (if it’s a bargain or your dream place) I would keep my foot in the door, let them know you are interested and regularly keep in contact ie every 2 months. And I would emotionally detach myself from it and expect it to come to nothing...without burning bridges. 

It actually is my ideal place, both the house, location, and setting. It's such a waste to see it rotting away. I'd see this as my first and last house and would happily give them their asking price for it. I'd even consider the uplift clause if it was for 10/20 years, but they originally wanted the uplift clause 'in perpetuity', which is just ridiculous and not a liability i'd be comfortable leaving my kids to sort out.   

[PeanutButter]

It's one of those things where I'd try to see the solicitors face to face. There's so much you're trying to infer, but really, most people don't like lying to someone's face or pulling the wool over your eyes. 

Call up, get your foot in the door. You don't really have anything to lose. 

[sammersmith]

13 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

It's one of those things where I'd try to see the solicitors face to face. There's so much you're trying to infer, but really, most people don't like lying to someone's face or pulling the wool over your eyes. 

Call up, get your foot in the door. You don't really have anything to lose. 

I am inferring quite a lot. There's just something very odd about all of this, especially the beneficiaries. Why would someone elderly leave everything to someone unrelated who is also very old? I would understand if her inheritance was left to her church/parish/diocese but not to individuals who are based no where near where she lived and seem unconnected to each other. One is even listed under his sacramental name (not his legal name,) which doesn't seem wise given this name isn't recorded anywhere. 

Yes. I think seeing them in person is probably a good shout. For a number of reasons i can't do this until October (personal finance, stamp duty boom, solicitors offices seem closed and they're working from home, etc) so i was thinking of getting a written offer sent recorded delivery and then i can turn up unannounced in October if i hear nothing. I'm not in a huge rush and the house is not currently on the market. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by sammersmith

[sammersmith]

Here's what I was thinking for the content of a letter to the solicitors. Contact details will be in the header. Does this look ok and not too probing? 

Quote

To SOLICITOR1 and SOLICITOR2,

I understand that you are the proprietors of HOUSE as executors of DECEASED since 2014 acting for the descendants of beneficiaries Fr. 1 and Fr. 2 SACRAMENTAL NAME (LEGAL NAME). 

I would like to submit an offer equal to the last advertised asking price of OFFER for the freehold title of HOUSE. This offer is subject to the following conditions: that the title is offered clear of any restriction, that the property is not re-advertised on the open market, and that vacant possession is granted on completion. 

I am cash buyer with proof of funds and not part of a chain or dependant on the proceeds of a sale. 

Regards,

ME

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by sammersmith

[24gray24]

I'd be more specific about not wanting any uplift clause. 

And I'd ask if the beneficiaries required it. 

I'd also ask if the solicitors act for all the executors, and whether there is any dispute about selling it between the executors or beneficiaries. 

[sammersmith]

23 minutes ago, 24gray24 said:

I'd be more specific about not wanting any uplift clause. 

The thing is only 1 agent (of about 5 over the years) mentioned the uplift clause on the RM listing, and this was about 6 years ago. No previous listings have mentioned it - which i know doesn't mean they don't intend to apply it but they may have thought better of it in later years. 

23 minutes ago, 24gray24 said:

And I'd ask if the beneficiaries required it. 

Yes. If they (who ever they are) require this uplift clause then I'd be open to negotiation on it. It will reflect the offer and i'd rather it didn't exist but if it's for a reasonable duration then i could live with it and lower my offer accordingly. Having it applied in perpetuity is unacceptable to me (and i suspect everyone) though.  

23 minutes ago, 24gray24 said:

I'd also ask if the solicitors act for all the executors, and whether there is any dispute about selling it between the executors or beneficiaries. 

The solicitors are the executors (or at least the will assigned the law firm the power of executor and two of the partners were chosen). This therefore implies there is not a disagreement between executors and beneficiaries, but arguments between beneficiaries are certainly possible if it has reverted to intestate law given the original beneficiaries (the priests) are dead. 

At some point, someone agreed to allow the removal chap to use this address for whatever it is he's doing, and for the property to be offered for sale a number of times and then removed from sale. Someone also thought it would be a good idea to try their luck with an uplift clause. Decisions are being made by someone and for someones benefit.

Before i downloaded the wills i assumed these actions were the final wishes of the deceased, but it doesn't mention anything about this or even about the house specifically. It just says 'my estate'.  

Edited May 30, 2021 by sammersmith

[24gray24]

Sounds like they flew a kite on uplift and no takers. So I wouldn't mention it again. 

So I'd just make the offer. 

Then it's in writing. 

[sammersmith]

2 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Sounds like they flew a kite on uplift and no takers. So I wouldn't mention it again. 

So I'd just make the offer. 

Then it's in writing. 

I suspect so. Hope so at any rate. 

I'm wondering why they don't try and sell in this current boom. In any case i'll submit my offer then atleast some form of contact is established. 

[Will!]

On 29/05/2021 at 10:47, sammersmith said:

Bit of a weird one this that i'm after some advice on, particularly from anyone with a legal background. 

House i'm interested in was granted probate to solicitors acting as the executors of someone who who died in 2014. Two of the partners have been listed as the proprietors on LR since then and have had the house up for sale at least 6 times over the years. One of the listings talks about an uplift clause the owners want to add. There's also a self employed removal company based at the house, where the chap has been listed on electoral roll since 2014. However house is basically derelict and no one is living there. 

I've downloaded the will of the deceased and her husband, who both used the same solicitor. The husband's will is dated 1 year before he died and he gives the house to wife. The wife's will is dated 7 years before husband died and 19 years before she died. In this will she explicitly disallows any inheritance to her children, but instead asks for the residual of her estate after 'executive expenses' to be split between 2 catholic priests. These priests died around the same time she did and (being catholic priests) have no descendants . 

Given the above, what are the solicitors up to and to what client are they acting for? I have four theories: 

1. They are over interpreting the 'executive expenses' clause of the will to bill for work involved in marketing the property and drafting an uplift clause (to benefit who?), but will frustrate any sale until they've fully exhausted their potential costs that they can extract from the proceeds
2. They are hoping to claim adverse possession of the property if it still fails to sell
3. They are incompetent and selling this house is not a priority for them if they have more time - critical work
4. The original will is either fraudulent or should have been superseded. Seems unlikely, but the way the will is drafted is extremely convenient for the solicitors and it's apparently in their interest to stall. 

Is there anything I can do in this situation to force a sale on them and get this uplift clause they seem so keen on, kicked out? My first thought was to send them a written offer and provide enough information to let them know that 'i know what you're up to ;)'. Failing that I thought to contact the children, though i'm very surprised they didn't contest this will given the beneficiaries are long dead. Failing both those options the house will likely be listed again soon and i'll attempt to get a viewing, though I tried that last time with no luck. 

Any thoughts or opinions appreciated

I'm not a lawyer, but you could refer this to the Treasury Solicitor's Office.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/bona-vacantia

Quote

What Bona Vacantia does

‘Bona Vacantia’ means vacant goods and is the name given to ownerless property, which by law passes to the Crown.

The Treasury Solicitor acts for the Crown to administer the estates of people who die intestate (without a Will) and without known kin (entitled blood relatives) and collect the assets of dissolved companies and other various ownerless goods in England and Wales.

 

[A.steve]

On 29/05/2021 at 20:58, sammersmith said:

I suspect something like this is happening but i don't know how they could get away with it unchallenged for this long.

My own (relatively recent) personal experiences have demonstrated to me that Solicitors can be extraordinarily slippery.  I have found three separate firms in the past 3 years that I could not trust to behave reasonably and with integrity (in three different ways).

I would like to find a 'good' solicitor (firm) - i.e. one who behaves reasonably; is competent and behaves with integrity.  Any ideas about how to go about finding one?  I'm aware of the idea of 'consulting solicitors' - which (relative to traditional partnerships) seem to have tax advantages on one hand and advantages of segregation of liability on the other - to the advantage of the solicitor company.  Do all firms of solicitors structure themselves in this way?  I would find it reassuring if I felt that the solicitor believed that they were exposed to tangible risks if they failed to engage honestly with their customer.

[My thought experiment here is that most people only the services of a solicitor infrequently - so there is no substantial customer-supplier relationship established.  Under these circumstances, if an ask of a solicitor turns out to be 'trivial' for the solicitor - and they charge a decent fee - great for them.  If the issue does not turn out to be trivial - there is every motivation to 'take a dump' (pardon the vernacular) on their client... and move on to more lucrative engagements.  How can someone who only infrequently needs a solicitor - e.g. for conveyancing a handful of times during a lifetime - pick a good one?  If there is no good answer to this, shouldn't we expect all solicitors to be awful?]

[sammersmith]

36 minutes ago, Will! said:

The Treasury Solicitor acts for the Crown to administer the estates of people who die intestate (without a Will) and without known kin (entitled blood relatives)

Interesting. In this case there is a will with probate granted and living blood relatives, but the will explicitly calls states that no provision is to be made for the children as "she's given them enough financial support already during her lifetime" 😬. The husband's will is equally tight when it comes to the children. He gives a very small amount (less than £100) to some grandchildren but that's it. 

This might make the children not entitled blood relatives?

[Will!]

9 minutes ago, sammersmith said:

This might make the children not entitled blood relatives?

There’s a whole chunk of law devoted to wills and kin, and for a proper answer you’ll probably  need to pay a lawyer to explain it to you, but here’s what I think:

If the deceased’s will explicitly disinherits the children then they’re not inheriting anything, unless they prove in court the will is invalid.  However, kin is more than children and kin come before the Treasury Solicitor’s Office.  Kin includes grandchildren, siblings and siblings’s children.

If you think there are no beneficiaries to the will and the executors are exploiting the situation then you can tell TSO.  TSO will ask the executors who the beneficiaries are.  If the executors don’t know then TSO will take possession for the Crown.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Will!

[sammersmith]

1 hour ago, A.steve said:

Under these circumstances, if an ask of a solicitor turns out to be 'trivial' for the solicitor - and they charge a decent fee - great for them.  If the issue does not turn out to be trivial - there is every motivation to 'take a dump' (pardon the vernacular) on their clien

My thought in this case was something along these lines. The will states that the executors are entitled to be paid fees for any work done in relation to carrying out the will. If i was being cynical i'd say that instructing agents and then removing from market, rinse and repeat a few times is a decent money spinner they can have for when times are less busy.

Right now, during Sunak's stamp duty craze, they have no need or capacity for the extra work and it's therefore off the market.

42 minutes ago, Will! said:

If you think there are no beneficiaries to the will and the executors are exploiting the situation then you can tell TSO.  TSO will ask the executors who the beneficiaries are.  If the executors don’t know then TSO will take possession for the Crown.

I do think they are exploiting the situation but i'm just amazed they have gotten away with it for so long. They must be incredibly ballsy or have just become complacent after all this time. 

Subtly waving that I know TSO have this power may be an option if they refuse my approach. However, I have no moral problem with what they're doing. I just want to buy the house and helping the Crown take it would likely make it even less accessible than it is currently with these, slightly sketchy, solicitors. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by sammersmith

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

From the information you have provided I would walk away from this.

The conclusion I would draw is that the reason it is not being sold is because someone somewhere either doesn't want it to be sold, or doesn't care about whether it is sold or not.

That someone invariably has more power over the situation than you do.

House purchases are hard enough, without the fact that one party is completely un-motivated.

Of course, if you feel like a crusade and have time and money to waste ....

Edited June 1, 2021 by Gigantic Purple Slug

[sammersmith]

1 hour ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

From the information you have provided I would walk away from this.

The conclusion I would draw is that the reason it is not being sold is because someone somewhere either doesn't want it to be sold, or doesn't care about whether it is sold or not.

That someone invariably has more power over the situation than you do.

Yes, i know what you're saying. Relatives have said this too but, for a number of reasons, it really is the ideal house for me and the family. I've known about this house for over a year and have looked at other places since but nothing has even come close. 

They clearly are not bothered about getting the best price otherwise they would try and sell it in this current boom. Their indifference is actually helpful to me in that respect, as it has allowed time to research the background and improve my finances in preparation for when it is marketed again or I contact them directly with an offer. 

1 hour ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Of course, if you feel like a crusade and have time and money to waste ....

It's more of a challenge and I don't mind that.

I have the time, and so far my monetary investment is only £16. This is comprised of: £6 land registry title and plan, £3 for the two wills, and £7 for an historical conveyance that was filed with LR (still waiting for this). 

Edited June 1, 2021 by sammersmith

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

1 minute ago, sammersmith said:

Yes, i know what you're saying. Relatives have said this too but, for a number of reasons, it really is the ideal house for me and the family. I've known about this house for over a year and have looked at other places since but nothing has even comes close. 

They clearly are not bothered about getting the best price otherwise they would try and sell it in this current boom. Their indifference is actually helpful to me in that respect, as it's allowed time to research the background and improve finances in preparation for when it is marketed again or I contact them directly with an offer. 

It's more of a challenge and I don't mind that.

I have the time, and so far my monetary investment is only £16. This is comprised of: £6 land registry title and plan, £3 for the two wills, and £7 for an historical conveyance that was filed with LR (still waiting for this). 

Yes. But if they accepted an offer and you had to start spending money on conveyancing and a survey, how confident would you feel about that they were serious in taking it to completion ?

What would happen if you reported it to some heir hunters ?

[sammersmith]

6 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Yes. But if they accepted an offer and you had to start spending money on conveyancing and a survey, how confident would you feel about that they were serious in taking it to completion ?

That's very true. Conveyancing costs will be at risk but I'd be buying this with cash so there are some parts of the process i could skip. I'll probably have a structural survey though, in all honesty, I'm not certain how useful this would be as the house is derelict and will throw up lots of issues that are obvious. As I'd be buying this as a renovation project so long as there's no subsidence I suspect I could accept most things. 

9 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

What would happen if you reported it to some heir hunters ?

I did think to actually do the heir hunting myself if the direct approach to the solicitor fails and their response leads me to think they are up to no good. 

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

37 minutes ago, sammersmith said:

That's very true. Conveyancing costs will be at risk but I'd be buying this with cash so there are some parts of the process i could skip. I'll probably have a structural survey though, in all honesty, I'm not certain how useful this would be as the house is derelict and will throw up lots of issues that are obvious. As I'd be buying this as a renovation project so long as there's no subsidence I suspect I could accept most things. 

I did think to actually do the heir hunting myself if the direct approach to the solicitor fails and their response leads me to think they are up to no good. 

Getting someone else to do it allows you to maintain some distance. Of course it may not turn out to your advantage, but it might start some resolution on the issue one way or another.

Is the EA marketing it a local small agent or is it a large chain ?

 

[sammersmith]

16 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Is the EA marketing it a local small agent or is it a large chain ?

It has been a mixture. Hunters advertised it twice 2 years apart. The others were small single branch agents close to the house.

The most recent EA was not local to the house but was virtually next door to solicitor’s office. Solicitors and house are in different towns about 15 - 20 miles apart, so it’s probably not too surprising these agents knew nothing about the house. None of their other sales are in this area.