The Times article - Areas where EU citizens are six times higher than estimated

[IMHAL]

1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

How do you know that I have not tried to search for it?

Fair point. But then try a FOIR.

[IMHAL]

3 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I agree with you that the problem was not the EU.

The problem with the Brexit vote is that there was not a third option stay in the EU and change the benefit system and we will never join the Euro.

In ideal world I would have voted Remain.

My guess is that the cons never thought that the public would vote to leave so they decided that that they would do nothing. The problem with all parties is that they underestimated the plight of the average Jo and the impact that banking, the need to keep IR low and the aftermath from the GFC in general has had on the less well off. Instead it has enabled parties like UKIP and now Bluekip to divert attention from their incompetency and pin the blame on the EU and the immigrant. You are falling into this trap.

[iamnumerate]

10 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Fair point. But then try a FOIR.

If it shows that immigrants of age x do pay considerably more than Remain are really incompetent.

6 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

My guess is that the cons never thought that the public would vote to leave so they decided that that they would do nothing. The problem with all parties is that they underestimated the plight of the average Jo and the impact that banking, the need to keep IR low and the aftermath from the GFC in general has had on the less well off. Instead it has enabled parties like UKIP and now Bluekip to divert attention from their incompetency and pin the blame on the EU and the immigrant. You are falling into this trap.

When Labour were in power I knew people who didn't work who got better than homes that I could afford, in many cases straight of the plane.

[Insane]

2 hours ago, IMHAL said:

You largley reinforce the notion that a vote for Brexit was a disgruntled protest vote.

Not necessarily people were disgruntled with many points of being in the EU but had real concerns with the amount of immigration , Immigration from both the EU and non EU countries. No body knows the future and whether we will be poorer or richer.  

[Insane]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

Blaming immigrants or immigration is just playing with semantics. The point is that people have through thousands of years found that blaming foreigners is an emotionally satisfying answer to most problems.

So are you saying that 6 million extra people since 2000 has not had any impact ? 

[Insane]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

50%? Did you just pull that figure from thin air?

There are new build development's in Essex where this is the case. I'm sure there are other places where this has also happened. 

[IMHAL]

30 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

How do you know that I have not tried to search for it?

Here is some research that gives a definate figure - took my about 20 seconds to find.

https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba

"European migrants living in the UK contribute £2,300 more to public purse each year than the average adult, suggesting a net contribution of £78,000 to the exchequer over their lifespan in the UK."

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by IMHAL

[Insane]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

Spot on. If brexit was a protest vote, why did the same people then vote for the epitome of the established class in the UK, the Conservatives?

Because they trusted Boris to get Brexit done unlike the other parties. 

[IMHAL]

8 minutes ago, Insane said:

Not necessarily people were disgruntled with many points of being in the EU but had real concerns with the amount of immigration , Immigration from both the EU and non EU countries. No body knows the future and whether we will be poorer or richer.  

Who care about 25 or 50 years time when we will be poorer or broke in 2,5 and 10 years time.

[Confusion of VIs]

28 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I agree with you that the problem was not the EU.

The problem with the Brexit vote is that there was not a third option stay in the EU and change the benefit system and we will never join the Euro.

In ideal world I would have voted Remain.

Your third option was on offer.

Cameron's deal included a permanent opt out from the Euro.

We always had the power to change the benefit system, its the way it is because that's how our elected goverments of both parties wanted it.

 

[Insane]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

(*) I laugh at how they can use that term unironically, ignoring the last 40 years they've spent moaning about the EU.

Everyone moaned about the EU for 40 years , that is what I find so funny with the Remoaners politicians from all parties used the EU as a Whipping Boy and blamed it for everything and then told us how wonderful it was when they wanted us to Vote Remain. 

Did you ever hear a Politician or Political Spin Doctor ever say something like " Oh yes that is great and that is due to us being in the EU ? " I didn't. 

[iamnumerate]

8 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Your third option was on offer.

Cameron's deal included a permanent opt out from the Euro.

We always had the power to change the benefit system, its the way it is because that's how our elected goverments of both parties wanted it.

 

Michael Heseltine said that we would join the Euro in the next few years.

I agree with you about the benefit system.  Sadly they don't want to (Labour) or are too scared to (Tories).

[dugsbody]

26 minutes ago, Insane said:

So are you saying that 6 million extra people since 2000 has not had any impact ? 

No, I'm saying the impact of this is entirely represented in rent price increases, which have risen on average about in line with historical norms.

House prices are a different beast altogether and have risen much, much more, just like the rest of the world. I've repeated this quite a lot. I'm not trying to have a go but which part is unclear?

[dugsbody]

20 minutes ago, Insane said:

Everyone moaned about the EU for 40 years , that is what I find so funny with the Remoaners politicians from all parties used the EU as a Whipping Boy and blamed it for everything and then told us how wonderful it was when they wanted us to Vote Remain. 

Did you ever hear a Politician or Political Spin Doctor ever say something like " Oh yes that is great and that is due to us being in the EU ? " I didn't. 

No, but it just wasn't much of an issue prior to 2008. The subsequent austerity did what it always does and made people look around for an outsider to blame for the harder times. Luckily UKIP and Tories were there to provide them with an easy answer.

And here we are.

Feel free to show me anything major - besides immigration - that the politicians blamed on the EU. The way people speak about this it feels like there should be a landslide of evidence showing our politicians blaming the EU for this policy or that policy. About the only things I can think of are "tampon tax" which was basically just timely for UKIP to stir up sentiment and immigration. 

What else?

[dugsbody]

27 minutes ago, Insane said:

Because they trusted Boris to get Brexit done unlike the other parties. 

Sure.... another story to soothe your conscience. Just watch the evidence and one day you may acknowledge reality. Two more terms (at least) of Conservatives, the most establishment of establishment parties. Corruption and deals for their mates, austerity for the masses. 

Best of luck.

[Insane]

3 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

House prices are a different beast altogether and have risen much, much more, just like the rest of the world. I've repeated this quite a lot. I'm not trying to have a go but which part is unclear?

Without an extra 6 million people arriving rents might not have kept up with inflation , if that had been the case people might not have been so willing to take on BTL mortgages which got cheaper due to lower interest rates and houses might not have gone up as much. The market buying or renting is linked and an extra 6 million people fed the upward prices. 

[Insane]

3 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

besides immigration - that the politicians blamed on the EU

The working time directive.

How we sell our goods.

A whole raft of new legislation for businesses. 

Red Tape.

Not making sure all nations played by the rules as the UK did. When it came to EU people accessing our health care we accepted the EU health passport , try using it in Spain they laugh at it. Remember many politicians speaking about this.

Not being able to help ailing businesses as it was against EU rules. The steal industry was a big one. 

People taking Court Action in the European Courts over riding rulings by our courts. 

 

Those are just off the top of my head , over the years the EU got the Blame for many things sometimes correctly and  other times maybe unfairly , but the point is you cannot use the EU as a whipping boy for 40 years and then expect everyone to believe it is so wonderful when you want them to vote to stay in it.  

 

[Insane]

13 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Sure.... another story to soothe your conscience. Just watch the evidence and one day you may acknowledge reality. Two more terms (at least) of Conservatives, the most establishment of establishment parties. Corruption and deals for their mates, austerity for the masses. 

Best of luck.

I think the Torys are pretty bad , the problem is I would have to be Insane to Vote Labour. 

[iamnumerate]

19 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

No, I'm saying the impact of this is entirely represented in rent price increases, which have risen on average about in line with historical norms.

House prices are a different beast altogether and have risen much, much more, just like the rest of the world. I've repeated this quite a lot. I'm not trying to have a go but which part is unclear?

That is clear the idea that immigration has had no effect on prices is not something I agree with though.

A friend rented out rooms in his flat to get money for a house most of the lodgers were immigrants.

He believes that he would have had less lodgers and less money to move up the market without them.

(Of course no lodgers and no HPI would have been ideal).

Are you sure that rent prices have risen with historical norms btw? 

[Insane]

1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

Are you sure that rent prices have risen with historical norms btw? 

No to be honest I am not , I was answering another post who said they had I took his word for it as my main point was how much the cost had risen when buying. Which we all know has outstripped almost all other items when it comes to increases.

[iamnumerate]

5 minutes ago, Insane said:

No to be honest I am not , I was answering another post who said they had I took his word for it as my main point was how much the cost had risen when buying. Which we all know has outstripped almost all other items when it comes to increases.

Thanks for that.  It is depressing how little knowledge we have about what is happening.

Edited April 20, 2021 by iamnumerate

[dugsbody]

24 minutes ago, Insane said:

No to be honest I am not , I was answering another post who said they had I took his word for it as my main point was how much the cost had risen when buying. Which we all know has outstripped almost all other items when it comes to increases.

 

18 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Thanks for that.  It is depressing how little knowledge we have about what is happening.

Ok, I want to ask you two a question.

You seem so convinced by your own arguments but yet you have not bothered to actually fact check them. How do you arrive at something you're so convinced about, and yet when prompted, you can't even source or present how you arrived at your conclusion? Surely you were taught better at school? Surely some form of critical thinking must apply rather than just having your puppet strings tugged?

Here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/indexofprivatehousingrentalprices/january2021

 

[iamnumerate]

10 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

 

Surely some form of critical thinking must apply rather than just having your puppet strings tugged?

Here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/indexofprivatehousingrentalprices/january2021

 

That is rather offensive when I have said how I think immigration affects house prices

A friend rented out rooms in his flat to get money for a house most of the lodgers were immigrants.

He believes that he would have had less lodgers and less money to move up the market without them.

(Of course no lodgers and no HPI would have been ideal).

However thanks for the link about rents I will look at it later.

Edited April 20, 2021 by iamnumerate

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Michael Heseltine said that we would join the Euro in the next few years.

I agree with you about the benefit system.  Sadly they don't want to (Labour) or are too scared to (Tories).

Thanks for the genuine LOL moment. In credibility terms that's up there with 

(21) Del boy - This time next year, we'll be Millionaires - YouTube 

 

[iamnumerate]

Just now, Confusion of VIs said:

Thanks for the genuine LOL moment. In credibility terms that's up there with 

(21) Del boy - This time next year, we'll be Millionaires - YouTube 

 

True it might not have been true but if a politician campaigning for x says if you vote for y will happen it would be a bad idea to vote against x on the grounds that he was deluded.

Like many remain and leave politicians I did wonder which side he was campaigning for to be honest.

Both sides were so useless that they probably did more harm than good to their own campaigns.