Fire at Grenfell Tower, London. Not looking good.

[chicker]

17 minutes ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

They see the victims of all fires and most RTA which must be like living in a war zone a lot of the time. They also routinely risk their lives in the line of duty with over 100 dying doing their job since 1980 . How many people would want to enter and climb the stairs of a blazing building like Grenfell Towers or man the hose at the top of a ladder while flaming debris from a high rise building rains down around them.

I believe recruitment is not a problem for the fire service . Much of the time its a pretty cushy job but the rough side is very rough. My fireman neighbour comes to my bonfire do every year,doesn't see many fires but he oftens cuts people out from crashed cars on the a406. 

[thisisthisitmaybe]

5 hours ago, crashmonitor said:

The media and Jeremy Corbyn have a lot to answer for with the rhetoric they have used. Also this idea that May could have shown up is ridiculous. It could have been a lynching..not just a proverbial one.

 

Most sensible thing I've heard.

[t1234]

13 minutes ago, thisisthisitmaybe said:

Most sensible thing I've heard.

There is nothing more ridiculous than idiots trying to stop comment and debate by complaining of people politicising events. All of the decisions that added to this tragedy were born from politics.

If you have worked in a company in the UK in the last 20 years you would have seen this policy of cutting every budget at every level. Whoever had to make the decision to save £5k on cladding would have felt under pressure to cuts every cost to keep their job. This is modern Britain.

[thisisthisitmaybe]

4 minutes ago, t1234 said:

There is nothing more ridiculous than idiots trying to stop comment and debate by complaining of people politicising events. All of the decisions that added to this tragedy were born from politics.

If you have worked in a company in the UK in the last 20 years you would have seen this policy of cutting every budget at every level. Whoever had to make the decision to save £5k on cladding would have felt under pressure to cuts every cost to keep their job. This is modern Britain.

I've not tried to stop comment and debate, if you are referring to me? Until an investigation has been carried out, I don't think you or I are qualified to talk about who and what is responsible.

In the meantime it's increasingly clear there are forces which are whipping this up into something potentially revolutionary - agitators. 

The queen was unusually open and emotional today, perhaps it is a real response, or maybe she is trying to distance the monarchy from the government as they fear a public revolution is going to be on their hands soon.

[t1234]

People are angry. The residents of that block complained many times about the fire safety of that block, they were ignored, now look at the deaths ? Germany and America have banned this cheaper cladding product, why have not we ? Did the useful idiots support deregulation ? 

That you worry more about people being angry at the government, rather than the 30+ people who have died tells me your opinion can safely be ignored. Wouldn't it be terrible that the government be held account ?

I won't continue, I live in London and used to work round the corner from this block and grew up with a friend whos family live there,  I am genuinely angry, I assume you are a lobbyist or some sort of robot - certainly not human. 

[stormymonday_2011]

1 minute ago, t1234 said:

There is nothing more ridiculous than idiots trying to stop comment and debate by complaining of people politicising events. All of the decisions that added to this tragedy were born from politics.

If you have worked in a company in the UK in the last 20 years you would have seen this policy of cutting every budget at every level. Whoever had to make the decision to save £5k on cladding would have felt under pressure to cuts every cost to keep their job. This is modern Britain.

The problem for Councils is that they are generally obliged by government regulations and EU directives to accept the Most Economically Advantageous Tender  for work done under contract which generally is the cheapest one that meets any existing quality and safety standards

[Sledgehead]

What is it they say? "Cometh the hour ..."

Real leaders see situations like this and blossom.

Real leaders do not fear their electorate.

A real leader would have realized that the leader of the opposition could be seen as opportunistic if they became involved on their tod. And pointed this out to them in confidence.

A real leader could have made a case that this is a cross party issue.

A real leader would have gathered the leaders of the other parties around her and gone before the people.

A real leader would have addressed the people directly, recognizing that these, for better or worse, are her people. Especially since she was in a position of power when at least some were invited to stay here.

Instead tensions rise.

People feel neglected. Abandoned.

Powerless, they will take what leaders present themselves.

Let us hope they are vocal. Let's hope, for all our sakes, they are heard. The silent types ... well, we've already seen what hey are capable of.

Back in the day, I thought Tracey too red for my tastes. Guess she still is. But my suspicion is she gave the downtrodden a loud enough voice to quell their anger.

It's a cracking tune in any case:

 

[winkie]

8 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

The problem for Councils is that they are generally obliged by government regulations and EU directives to accept the Most Economically Advantageous Tender  for work done under contract which generally is the cheapest one that meets any existing quality and safety standards

Unless they themselves lived there.....are they saying some people are worth spending more on than others?

These blocks have all sorts of people living in them, people who live and work in the local community serving others both with money and not much money......these people are the community.......many others who own/own to rent out, are part of a community somewhere else, they don't even have a vote or have a stake in the community apart from what money  they invested in someone elses community......are they worth more simply because they have more money?

 

 

[copydude]

Fire Minister Was  Among 72 Tory Landlords Voting Against

Making Homes 'Fit For Human Habitation'.

 

Quote

 

Theresa May’s new Police and Fire Minister, Nick Hurd, was among the 72 Tory MPs – who are also residential landlords – that voted against a motion to make homes “fit for human habitation.” Many people have been reposting articles about the debate in Parliament last January in light of today’s tragedy at Grenfell Tower.

The need to improve fire prevention was explicitly set out by then Shadow Housing Minister Teresa Pearce. 

Labour’s amendment was defeated with the help of the 72 Tory MPs who top up their Parliamentary salaries as landlords.

Hurd, who makes at least £20,000 a year rental income from a 2 bedroom flat in Ruislip and a house in London, was among them.

Today, as Police and Fire Minister, he is leading the Government’s response to the Grenfell tragedy.

 

 

Link

 

[knock out johnny]

13 minutes ago, copydude said:

Fire Minister Was  Among 72 Tory Landlords Voting Against

Making Homes 'Fit For Human Habitation'.

 

 

Link

 

I mentioned this on Thursday courtesy of Lily Allen kicking up a stink on channel 4 news and subsequently getting banned from bbc newsnight 

[copydude]

‘Blogger gagged by council after warning about Grenfell Tower fire threat’

Link

Quote

 

The scandal seems to reach beyond local council remit, as the Mirror reports that former Housing Minister Brandon Lewis “sat on” information about the several fire risks in buildings such as Grenfell Tower.

According to the newspaper, Lewis did not take action on safety irregularities on tower blocks over 30 meters tall because it could “discourage building.” Instead he shrugged off suggestions that sprinklers should be installed in the block. 

 

 

[frozen_out]

On another thread someone mentioned politics always feeling like 'day 1'. This is a great example of it. This block was built years ago, people across the country have lived in much worse (much of it erected under Labour governments), politicians of all ilks have had many opportunities to do something, yet this is all somehow the fault of the current tory government. It's bizarre.

And as I mentioned to a colleague of mine - people never died because of penny pinching and lack of concern for human life in heavily regulated economies, did they?

[copydude]

5 minutes ago, frozen_out said:

This block was built years ago, yet this is all somehow the fault of the current tory government. It's bizarre.

The building was safe until the refurbishment carried out in 2015.

Concerns about general adherence to fire prevention and maintenance began in 2012. Under the cuts to services, workers at the residence committee claim they were no longer able to do their jobs. 

The tragedy is a direct result of cuts and deregulation. 

[crashmonitor]

The image that the media is portraying of London is very dark imo, not helped by the recent multiple terrorist attacks. I really like London, but the fact this event has  been politicised is sinking London's image imo . The news is depressing, it looks like a place you really want to live with anarchists jumping on the bandwagon. I really don't want to watch the news at the moment.

We have had some really shocking public sector failures over the years like the Bradford football ground disaster, where the failings were tenfold this. Fans were literally locked in the ground and burnt alive. To their credit nobody overly politicised such events in the past and try to make a revolution or class war out of it.

 

[Liquid Goldfish]

I've also posted this on the Grenfell Tower topic on the main board - hope this doesn't confuse anyone!

I know lots of people are asking why the renovations cost so much just to add insulation and double glazing. Here is a link to the plans. I've no idea if these were fully implemented:

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/planning/searches/details.aspx?adv=0&simple=Grenfell+Tower&simpleBatch=20&simSubmit=Search&id=PP/12/04097&cn=145691+IBI+Taylor+Young+Chadsworth+House+Wilmslow+Road+01625+542200&type=decision&tab=tabs-planning-2#tabs-planning-6

The plans seems to show extensive remodelling of the bottom four floors.

Also it looks like the 2 bed flats were all changed to 4 bed flats.

Originally all four bottom floors were non-residential  - and it seems that the first floor and second floor were originally semi-open with a large walkway. In the renovation It looks like they were all fully enclosed to increase the amount of useable space. As a result the third floor changed from being the "office floor" to being a new residential floor. it looks like the lower fire escape and lower lifts were moved or reorientated.

I'm not very good at understanding plans but these changes seem quite obvious.

EDIT: I think I'm wrong about all the 2 bed flats being changed to 4 bed. I think this was just on the newly created lower residential floors.

[frozen_out]

44 minutes ago, copydude said:

The building was safe until the refurbishment carried out in 2015.

Concerns about general adherence to fire prevention and maintenance began in 2012. Under the cuts to services, workers at the residence committee claim they were no longer able to do their jobs. 

The tragedy is a direct result of cuts and deregulation. 

Fire service declared it safe last year.

[frozen_out]

49 minutes ago, copydude said:

The building was safe until the refurbishment carried out in 2015.

Concerns about general adherence to fire prevention and maintenance began in 2012. Under the cuts to services, workers at the residence committee claim they were no longer able to do their jobs. 

The tragedy is a direct result of cuts and deregulation. 

Further - I would like to see one verified complaint about the cladding that is supposedly responsible.

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, knock out johnny said:

I mentioned this on Thursday courtesy of Lily Allen kicking up a stink on channel 4 news and subsequently getting banned from bbc newsnight 

Really this thread should in the main forum, it is so mixed up with the shortage of housing/btl/rentier MPs issue. The reason that the councils don't look too closely at safety is that they have nowhere else to house the people. It wouldn't surprise me if some individuals will now make a fortune out of rehousing the newly homeless. The answer is so bl**dimg obvious it makes you weep. Govt needs to build a million new council houses. In A properly run country population growth/ immigration and divorce would be monitored and new accommodation /schooling etc factors in. The UK is so hopeless and rankly corrupt (on this issue) that this never happens.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

What going on here?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4612516/Theresa-U-TURNS-Grenfell-Tower-guarantee-rehouse.html

Is May totally, completely and utterly incompetent or is this Daily Mail spin to oust her now that they realise her general level of incompetence coupled with their negative election attacks on Corbyn back fired so badly.

[thisisthisitmaybe]

I think May probably just wants to go now. But the Tory party won't let her as they now know they are on course to lose a new GE, which a new leader will entail.

[crashmonitor]

11 minutes ago, thisisthisitmaybe said:

I think May probably just wants to go now. But the Tory party won't let her as they now know they are on course to lose a new GE, which a new leader will entail.

Yep just make the present unstable position even worse and force a General election. I think she is aware she must at least try and salvage something out of her catastrophic decision to go for an early general election.

[knock out johnny]

48 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

What going on here?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4612516/Theresa-U-TURNS-Grenfell-Tower-guarantee-rehouse.html

Is May totally, completely and utterly incompetent or is this Daily Mail spin to oust her now that they realise her general level of incompetence coupled with their negative election attacks on Corbyn back fired so badly.

Murdoch's Sky and the Tory press had already turned on her before grenfell. This event is the cherry on the cake

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

13 hours ago, t1234 said:

There is nothing more ridiculous than idiots trying to stop comment and debate by complaining of people politicising events. All of the decisions that added to this tragedy were born from politics.

If you have worked in a company in the UK in the last 20 years you would have seen this policy of cutting every budget at every level. Whoever had to make the decision to save £5k on cladding would have felt under pressure to cuts every cost to keep their job. This is modern Britain.

 

The way around this is that in the case of Corporate Manslaughter the CEO and board take the jail sentence that would have gone with an actual Manslaughter charge.

[copydude]

23 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

Murdoch's Sky and the Tory press had already turned on her before grenfell. This event is the cherry on the cake

Not to mention George Osborne at the Evening Standard 

(Snivelling little grudge monkey)

[thisisthisitmaybe]

7 minutes ago, copydude said:

Not to mention George Osborne at the Evening Standard 

(Snivelling little grudge monkey)

Yes, if the fire was down to austerity, then Obsorne's status as Mr Austerity will be one he will be sure to try and rebrand away from. The dirty ugly filthy scumbag!