Fire at Grenfell Tower, London. Not looking good.

[copydude]

1 hour ago, crashmonitor said:

.Also this idea that May could have shown up is ridiculous. 

Oh, come on. Or do you mean, because she has just fired her advisors, she wouldn't have a clue what to do or say?

People are angry and want heads to roll. It's normal. 

The Housing Minister and The Lord Mayor should resign for starters. We know the blame lies with a long line of miscreants, but it's on their watch. And there's plenty more sprinklerless, dodgily built, insanely overcrowded housing out there.

[Qetesuesi]

Now then everybody:  imagine if this fire had happened one week BEFORE the election....

[Trampa501]

9 hours ago, Errol said:

Agree. I'm waiting for people to start asking this question.

Why is there a building full of immigrants in the middle of one of the richest areas in the country? An area where most native British can't even afford to live (if they wanted to).

Why are the immigrants here? Who allowed them in? When are the borders going to be shut etc etc.

All perfectly valid questions. Can be dealt with at a later date, obviously, after the investigation and any guilty parties are punished.

Who do you want to prevent living in London? One of the many doctors, nurses, teachers, pharmacists etc who have origins overseas? Or perhaps it's just those on lower salaries, like teaching assistant Nadia, or security guard Mohamdenur ? (both tenants in that block)

As to why new entrants may want to live in London, maybe the attitude and hatred of posters like you deter them from going to smaller towns.

For the record I live in a housing block in London and probably 80% of the adults were born overseas. Yet to come across anyone as nasty as your online persona. Start your civil war at your peril.

[Trampa501]

56 minutes ago, BristolBuyer said:

Riots tend to be associated with people setting fire to buildings though, which would be a bit ironic.

I think the main lesson to be learned here is "don't fit flammable cladding to tall buildings". Although the human cost of learning this lesson has been high, it seems likely to me that the cost of using non-flammable cladding instead on future projects is not going to be excessive. Even replacing already-fitted flammable cladding is likely to be cheaper than demolition. I see this as an architectural issue rather than a political one.

Possibly Better stairway exit options may have helped too. But if the regulations have been allowed to be too lax, then the lawmakers should share some responsibility.

[knock out johnny]

1 minute ago, Trampa501 said:

Who do you want to prevent living in London? One of the many doctors, nurses, teachers, pharmacists etc who have origins overseas? Or perhaps it's just those on lower salaries, like teaching assistant Nadia, or security guard Mohamdenur ? (both tenants in that block)

As to why new entrants may want to live in London, maybe the attitude and hatred of posters like you deter them from going to smaller towns.

For the record I live in a housing block in London and probably 80% of the adults were born overseas. Yet to come across anyone as nasty as your online persona. Start your civil war at your peril.

And rich people always need poor people to serve them and clean their sh!t up

[Trampa501]

7 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

And rich people always need poor people to serve them and clean their sh!t up

Absolutely  (although some are hoping robots will take over many of these jobs)

For those who state they are jealous of folk who live in london - they can always rent a bedsit room (maybe in a tower block and sleep 4 to that room) and then seek one of the many cafe/cleaning/bar jobs that abound. You won't earn much, and you will pay more for almost everything. You won't be able to afford a car (still, no point in London) and never have a salary that can get a mortgage, but hey you're living in London!

Of course many prefer to have a better job yet live outside London, even if it means a long commute. Have to admire their stamina, I did it once and a few months saw me off.

 

 

[copydude]

I don't think anyone, of any nationality, should have to live in squalor.  It's unimaginable that there were people paying over 2,000 a month to live in this death trap.

London is a scandal . . . in every respect. And it isn't just the cladding.

The police and the firefighters had inadequate means and preparation . . . and the advice they gave unfortunate families was completely wrong. Firemen have had a bum deal since their strike in the Blair days . . . don't you remember them being vilified by the press for striking when the army was needed to protect us against Saddam? 

[stormymonday_2011]

1 hour ago, copydude said:

Oh, come on. Or do you mean, because she has just fired her advisors, she wouldn't have a clue what to do or say?

People are angry and want heads to roll. It's normal. 

The Housing Minister and The Lord Mayor should resign for starters. We know the blame lies with a long line of miscreants, but it's on their watch. And there's plenty more sprinklerless, dodgily built, insanely overcrowded housing out there.

Glad you don't do my annual work assessment

The current Housing Minister Ashok Sharma had only been in the job 9 hours when Grenfell Towers caught fire and you are already demanding his resignation.

I am not sure that the Lord Mayor of the City of London has much say over what happens in Kensington either as it is a purely honorific not a political post

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

56 minutes ago, Trampa501 said:

Who do you want to prevent living in London? One of the many doctors, nurses, teachers, pharmacists etc who have origins overseas? Or perhaps it's just those on lower salaries, like teaching assistant Nadia, or security guard Mohamdenur ? (both tenants in that block)

As to why new entrants may want to live in London, maybe the attitude and hatred of posters like you deter them from going to smaller towns.

For the record I live in a housing block in London and probably 80% of the adults were born overseas. Yet to come across anyone as nasty as your online persona. Start your civil war at your peril.

It's the classic immigration model.

People come in often with nothing, and work their way up. They need to start somewhere and to live somewhere. London is probably the best place to start. 

[stormymonday_2011]

1 hour ago, BristolBuyer said:

Riots tend to be associated with people setting fire to buildings though, which would be a bit ironic.

I think the main lesson to be learned here is "don't fit flammable cladding to tall buildings". Although the human cost of learning this lesson has been high, it seems likely to me that the cost of using non-flammable cladding instead on future projects is not going to be excessive. Even replacing already-fitted flammable cladding is likely to be cheaper than demolition. I see this as an architectural issue rather than a political one.

One suspects that the cost of insurance alone is going to mean that much of the cladding stuck on these buildings is likely to be removed pretty quickly. I mean who wants to underwrite a building  on which some one has essentially bolted a load of firelighters 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

58 minutes ago, Trampa501 said:

Possibly Better stairway exit options may have helped too. But if the regulations have been allowed to be too lax, then the lawmakers should share some responsibility.

Ok so this is less suitable for latter-day finger pointing  as this is a 1970s block, but there is a widely recognised trade off between stairwells, lift shaft count, service ducts and useable (saleable) floor space. So guess what gets sacrificed?

To me this has a lot of analogies  to The Titanic. A flawed design, not enough escape routes (lifeboats) and an apparent ambivalence to those in third class.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

10 minutes ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

One suspects that the cost of insurance alone is going to mean that much of the cladding stuck on these buildings is likely to be removed pretty quickly. I mean who wants to underwrite a building  on which some one has essentially bolted a load of firelighters 

Yes, it is the insurance equivalent of a thatched cottage, but without the rustic charm. 

As an engineer, I am still totally amazed at the lack of testing applied to the materials before use on site - and I mean onsite testing not just product specification tests.The views seems to have been these meet regulations, so let's just use them. What if the fire suppressant was missing/inadequate due to a manufacturing error, and didn't anyone think to read the literature in the dangerous outcomes of tests conducted in the US and Germany.

This just confirms my view that quantity surveyors, construction workers and site managers are just thick.

Personally I'd ban anyone from working in the industry without doing a comprehensive safety evaluation course.

In my degree the first things we learnt about where the Flixborough Disaster and the Tacoma   Narrows Bridge. These were more complex mechanisms of failure, the Grenfell Tower cladding is design failure 101.

 

[copydude]

14 minutes ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Glad you don't do my annual work assessment

The current Housing Minister Ashok Sharma had only been in the job 9 hours when Grenfell Towers caught fire and you are already demanding his resignation.

I am not sure that the Lord Mayor of the City of London has much say over what happens in Kensington either as it is a purely honorific not a political post

I am suggesting that a symbolic act of contrition is necessary. Even though these people may well be the least responsible.

An enquiry lasting a decade or so, as in the many examples you posted earlier, doesn't cut it anymore. 

 

[debtlessmanc]

Edit - Should stick to the fire safety issue

[Byron]

1 hour ago, Trampa501 said:

Who do you want to prevent living in London? One of the many doctors, nurses, teachers, pharmacists etc who have origins overseas? Or perhaps it's just those on lower salaries, like teaching assistant Nadia, or security guard Mohamdenur ? (both tenants in that block)

As to why new entrants may want to live in London, maybe the attitude and hatred of posters like you deter them from going to smaller towns.

For the record I live in a housing block in London and probably 80% of the adults were born overseas. Yet to come across anyone as nasty as your online persona. Start your civil war at your peril.

Talk about making straw men.

People all over the UK have been shocked to see a COUNCIL block of flats filled with foreigners and are starting to ask questions.

Genuine, reasonable questions, like whose tax pounds go to supporting this.

Why was it allowed to happen without democratic mandate?

So, just why do you go on the attack?

Are you just some sort of naïve SJW, or are you making money out of this?

[Trampa501]

3 minutes ago, Byron said:

Talk about making straw men.

People all over the UK have been shocked to see a COUNCIL block of flats filled with foreigners and are starting to ask questions.

Genuine, reasonable questions, like whose tax pounds go to supporting this.

Why was it allowed to happen without democratic mandate?

So, just why do you go on the attack?

Are you just some sort of naïve SJW, or are you making money out of this?

London full of migrants? How is that a shock to anyone? Even most of the Brits here have moved from other parts of the country.

As for going on the attack, I'm just angry that there's been a fire like this that has killed innocents. That may be down to poor alarm systems or poor cladding choice or whatever. It is not down to the fact that tenants living there may come from (or have parents) from other countries. Not me who raised this eg "on the attack". Stop trying to blame the victims.

[Trampa501]

46 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Ok so this is less suitable for latter-day finger pointing  as this is a 1970s block, but there is a widely recognised trade off between stairwells, lift shaft count, service ducts and useable (saleable) floor space. So guess what gets sacrificed?

To me this has a lot of analogies  to The Titanic. A flawed design, not enough escape routes (lifeboats) and an apparent ambivalence to those in third class.

People are living in tower blocks throughout the land (not just in London). They need reassurance that relevant safety regs are in place. You're right that often a trade off will put a lesser importance on safety issues, but that's why we need stricter regulation.

[casual_squash]

2 minutes ago, Trampa501 said:

People are living in tower blocks throughout the land (not just in London). They need reassurance that relevant safety regs are in place. You're right that often a trade off will put a lesser importance on safety issues, but that's why we need stricter regulation.

Agreed but it also has to mean we need less influx of people to have a hope of offering suitable and sustainable housing. 

Otherwise we end up having to make do with 60 year old high rise ghettos that are difficult to maintain. 

It's a toxic mix and one that's on an inevitable path to failure. 

[Byron]

22 minutes ago, Trampa501 said:

London full of migrants? How is that a shock to anyone? Even most of the Brits here have moved from other parts of the country.

As for going on the attack, I'm just angry that there's been a fire like this that has killed innocents. That may be down to poor alarm systems or poor cladding choice or whatever. It is not down to the fact that tenants living there may come from (or have parents) from other countries. Not me who raised this eg "on the attack". Stop trying to blame the victims.

There you go again, who is blaming the victims?

Do you always write in slogans?

[Trampa501]

2 minutes ago, Byron said:

There you go again, who is blaming the victims?

Do you always write in slogans?

Not me sunshine who started on a rant about London tower blocks hosting people from other parts.

Any chance we can stick to why such a damaging fire was allowed to happen?

[Byron]

Just now, Trampa501 said:

Not me sunshine who started on a rant about London tower blocks hosting people from other parts.

Any chance we can stick to why such a damaging fire was allowed to happen?

But you chose to reply accusing the OP of being nasty etc.

Most British people do not want immigrants, but you, Jeremy Corbyn and Lily Allen apparently do.

Fine, it's a free country, but why do you expect the rest of us to cough up our tax pounds just to assuage your pathological altruism?

[Trampa501]

Just now, Byron said:

But you chose to reply accusing the OP of being nasty etc.

Most British people do not want immigrants, but you, Jeremy Corbyn and Lily Allen apparently do.

Fine, it's a free country, but why do you expect the rest of us to cough up our tax pounds just to assuage your pathological altruism?

Hang on - you're still trying to change the subject into blame the immigrant... I'm sure btw that the north Korea option would leave us a lot poorer but that's another thread subject. Remember that London contributes far more to the nation's tax coffers than any other region.

I don't care if the building contained Syrians, Brummies or Poles. It's been a horrible event and I just hope we can ratchet up the regs so this never happens again.

[dgul]

1 hour ago, copydude said:

I don't think anyone, of any nationality, should have to live in squalor.  It's unimaginable that there were people paying over 2,000 a month to live in this death trap.

London is a scandal . . . in every respect. And it isn't just the cladding.

The police and the firefighters had inadequate means and preparation . . . and the advice they gave unfortunate families was completely wrong. Firemen have had a bum deal since their strike in the Blair days . . . don't you remember them being vilified by the press for striking when the army was needed to protect us against Saddam? 

That is only clear in hindsight.  This is an extremely unusual case.  If the general advice was 'vacate the building' how many people over the years would have been injured/died falling down stairs or from smoke inhalation damage in the stairwells (what usually kills in fires)?  The 'people should evacuate in fires in tower blocks' is a knee-jerk response that could well result in many more injuries and deaths over the years if generally followed.  

The fire service do an amazing job that many people would find impossible.  Don't throw the blame their way.

[stormymonday_2011]

1 hour ago, copydude said:

I am suggesting that a symbolic act of contrition is necessary. Even though these people may well be the least responsible.

An enquiry lasting a decade or so, as in the many examples you posted earlier, doesn't cut it anymore. 

 

Well getting the Lord Mayor of London whose remit does not extend beyond the square mile of the City of London to resign because of this fire would have about as much relevance as getting the England football manager to quit over the issue

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Mayor_of_London

I am all for shooting a few of those responsible but I think that would be taking symbolic action a bit too far.

 

[stormymonday_2011]

7 minutes ago, dgul said:

The fire service do an amazing job that many people would find impossible.  Don't throw the blame their way.

They see the victims of all fires and most RTA which must be like living in a war zone a lot of the time. They also routinely risk their lives in the line of duty with over 100 dying doing their job since 1980 . How many people would want to enter and climb the stairs of a blazing building like Grenfell Towers or man the hose at the top of a ladder while flaming debris from a high rise building rains down around them.