Errol Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, EUBanana said: The bottom line is there's been no support for this sort of EU federasty ever. The wool has been very effectively pulled over people's eyes. Really it was asking for trouble all along, because at some point the plebs will have woken up, and quite likely been pi$$ed off. Agree completely. When people voted in the original referendum they had no idea that they were voting for some kind of federal Europe where we surrender all sovereignty. The majority thought they were voting for a simple customs union - the sort of thing that might make trade better and life in general a bit easier. Essentially a larger trade deal or treaty. That is why large numbers of the people who voted in the original referendum were desperate to undo their error. They voted to leave in massive quantities having spent the past 30-40 years growing to understand just how much the wool was pulled over their eyes. Edited November 25, 2016 by Errol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 4 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: We all know you want to do away with constitutional government and just have a dictator This is where the EU is taking us, effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: We all know you want to do away with constitutional government and just have a dictator (who happens to agree with you on everything). You support bouncing the plebs into the reduction of the UK to a satrapy of an EU empire by lies and conspiracy. Do you really honestly think that such a rocky foundation as that is a blueprint for a contented population and a responsive, transparent government? Nick Clegg was lying about the EU army up until referendum day, when the truth came out. How on earth can this sort of scheming be a basis for founding a nation state called Europe? It would either be a tyranny or it would collapse, like the USSR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 1 minute ago, EUBanana said: Nick Clegg was lying about the EU army Yes, well he is a liar so I'm not surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 22 minutes ago, EUBanana said: You support bouncing the plebs into the reduction of the UK to a satrapy of an EU empire by lies and conspiracy. Do you really honestly think that such a rocky foundation as that is a blueprint for a contented population and a responsive, transparent government? Nick Clegg was lying about the EU army up until referendum day, when the truth came out. How on earth can this sort of scheming be a basis for founding a nation state called Europe? It would either be a tyranny or it would collapse, like the USSR. The EU will never be a nation state. The whole point of it is that it goes beyond the nation state into a form of political organisation that has not been done before. The legal basis for the EU will always be as a treaty between sovereign nation states that can leave if they chose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: The EU will never be a nation state. The whole point of it is that it goes beyond the nation state into a form of political organisation that has not been done before. The legal basis for the EU will always be as a treaty between sovereign nation states that can leave if they chose. You can quibble over definitions but I believe it's an empire, not a nation state. Jose Manuel Barroso agrees with me even. An empire committed to ever closer union at that. It can't be a nation state, there's no single demos underlying it, which is why there'll be trouble. Well, not even future tense, it's why there IS trouble. As for leaving... really. I suspect that will be in an "in theory" sense. Just look at the ructions Brexit is causing, it doesn't look like a simple confederation to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted November 25, 2016 Author Share Posted November 25, 2016 33 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: The EU will never be a nation state. The whole point of it is that it goes beyond the nation state into a form of political organisation that has not been done before. The legal basis for the EU will always be as a treaty between sovereign nation states that can leave if they chose. It's pretty clear where it is headed with the one flag, one anthem, one currency, one central bank, one army, one Supreme Court, one parliament. Granted it is in transition. i find the choice of the word 'states' to be quite duplicitous, and oft used to describe the EU. A group of sovereign states... No. They are (at least for the present) nations. States are in the United States, and they are one country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 32 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: i find the choice of the word 'states' to be quite duplicitous, and oft used to describe the EU. A group of sovereign states... No. They are (at least for the present) nations. States are in the United States, and they are one country. You're seeing something that isn't there. The term 'state' is quite proper in this context and is the same terminology used to describe UN member states. The word 'nation' is problematic because it has a connotation of ethnicity (derived from the Latin for birth). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 38 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: It's pretty clear where it is headed with the one flag, one anthem, one currency, one central bank, one army, one Supreme Court, one parliament. Granted it is in transition. Indeed. And that's what we, the people of the UK who voted to leave, want nothing to do with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, Errol said: Indeed. And that's what we, the people of the UK who voted to leave, want nothing to do with. 48% said otherwise. Are they not the people of the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 24 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 48% said otherwise. Are they not the people of the UK? As democrats one would hope they are used to the side they support losing a vote. That concept is what separates a supposedly enlightened and mature democracy from an illegitimate post-colonial African "democracy" which collapses after the first election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) 35 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 48% said otherwise. Are they not the people of the UK? We are going around in circles. We voted to leave. That is a final decision in the most democratic process this country has seen in 50 years. Yes, of course, we all need to come together to move forward. All sides need to put their brains to leaving the EU as one nation. But the core issue - leave or remain - has been decided. It should not be discussed. Sadly, the 'remain' camp are instead whining and choosing to gibber about 2nd referendums and bring people like Blair back from the dead rather than actually focusing on what has already been decided. You can't take part in a referendum (itself voted for by Parliament - with the result of a leave vote clearly understood and written in black and white) and then complain about the result when you lose. If remain had won I would have been resigned to the end of this country - but I would have accepted that defeat. I find it hard to believe that all the remain whingers would be arguing for another referendum if remain had won. If remain had won they would have crushed all and any dissent and moved on with their Euro plans. They wouldn't have cared a jot for the half of the country who voted leave. Edited November 25, 2016 by Errol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 37 minutes ago, Errol said: That is a final decision in the most democratic process this country has seen in 50 years. It's simply a fact that this is not a final decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: 48% said otherwise. Are they not the people of the UK? They didn't know what they were voting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 20 hours ago, Pindar said: It's funny that the legal process meant nothing when Heath and parliament quietly signed the UK up the the "common market" in 1972. It was only 3 years later that they thought they'd better consult the UK population. They voted to stay in but only because they were grossly misinformed. Some would say we voted Leave for the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 17 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Some would say we voted Leave for the same reason. Some people think Elvis lives on Mars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 27 minutes ago, the gardener said: They didn't know what they were voting for. And those who did? Are they not British people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 49 minutes ago, EUBanana said: Some people think Elvis lives on Mars. Same people who voted leave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: And those who did? Are they not British people? They don't have the best interests of the British people at heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 On 23/11/2016 at 0:13 PM, thecrashingisles said: Huge how? Do you think parliament will agree to simply tear up our international treaty commitments? You can say goodbye to new trade deals in that case. Trade deals are never required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 5 hours ago, Bloo Loo said: Trade deals are never required. No no no! Of course they are. Just look at the complexity of, and length of time it took to negotiate the trade deal between the EU and China. Oh wait.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurDayWillCome Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 On 24 November 2016 at 1:34 AM, Confusion of VIs said: So all you have to do to Leave is write up all of your proposals,and the 50,000 plus things you haven't got round to thinking about, into law and you're ready to go. Problem is the your legal people will tell you that's 10 years work, and that's just about where we are now. No, that is your problem, a problem that has been created by years and years of people, like yourself, telling other people how things should be done. Well, Mr unCivil Servant, the World is changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 59 minutes ago, OurDayWillCome said: No, that is your problem, a problem that has been created by years and years of people, like yourself, telling other people how things should be done. Well, Mr unCivil Servant, the World is changing. If the rule of law is in decline it's a bad thing for all of us. It'll start with Brexit and end with the imposition of Sharia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, OurDayWillCome said: No, that is your problem, a problem that has been created by years and years of people, like yourself, telling other people how things should be done. Well, Mr unCivil Servant, the World is changing. Changing to what? A we will make everything up as we go along and sod everyone else world. BTW I left the civil service a long time ago, its a frustrating place to work in and if you live in London the pay is rubbish Edited November 26, 2016 by Confusion of VIs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 19 hours ago, Errol said: Agree completely. When people voted in the original referendum they had no idea that they were voting for some kind of federal Europe where we surrender all sovereignty. The majority thought they were voting for a simple customs union - the sort of thing that might make trade better and life in general a bit easier. Essentially a larger trade deal or treaty. That is why large numbers of the people who voted in the original referendum were desperate to undo their error. They voted to leave in massive quantities having spent the past 30-40 years growing to understand just how much the wool was pulled over their eyes. This is a very important point remainers seem unwilling to face up to. The only generation who voted to join the EU originally - did a complete about face when asked the same question decades later having experienced what the result actually was. It's a damning fact. All we get instead is told they were just being selfish and on purpose ******ing over their own children and grandchildren. It's ridiculous logic. They changed their minds because they experienced what it entailed - and realised it wasn't a positive - it had instead over time become a negative Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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