Sack The Junior Doctors.....

[Bruce Banner]

Hospital management enforces it.

When they had me in last year, they kept me while they delayed several tests. I pleaded to be allowed home and come back by appointment for the tests - no chance. Well then, what if I just go home overnight and come back in the morning and sit around all day - repeat day after day - until their convenience? Still no chance.

Of course I spoke to other patients, and it seemed quite a lot of us who would've been perfectly capable of going home were kept in blocking beds against our will, simply because hospital policy required it.

If I were in that situation I would discharge myself

[spyguy]

One striking thing that I noticed was how poor the beds were managed.

The senior nurse would answer the phone andtell people id beds were available.

In a hospital surely youd expect beds and the state of the occupant ( see porcas comment) to be tracked closely. You know, bed occupied by someone fresh out ofsurgery,bed occupied by someone itching to leave, etc.

Then all beds, the major hospital resouces ,can be managed centrally.

[PopGun]

Compared to which other health system, exactly?

Did this point ever get addressed??!

[spyguy]

Did this point ever get addressed??!

Its politicised!

US is a car crash,money eise but provides excellent care, a lot of it unneccessary.

Westrern europe offers much better clinical care, and is less ideological than nhs i.e. mix of private care, payment of health insurance.

Singapore is cheaper and much higher performing than the NHS.

The NHS was the first, largecountry to offer universal care. However the compromises in creating it, and badly conceived and naive planning lets it down.

Death of labour party will see some much needed improvements with NHS.

I also find the 'NHS is great' quote just is not said amongst my friends and family, some having truely horrendous and cretinous NHS failings.

[MrPin]

Employ more doctors and nurses....stop wasting so much on agency and locum staff.....cut out the layers of back office waste and procurement...

The amount of "secret" privatisation, with trusts and outsourcing is rubbish.

[PopGun]

Its politicised!

US is a car crash,money eise but provides excellent care, a lot of it unneccessary.

Westrern europe offers much better clinical care, and is less ideological than nhs i.e. mix of private care, payment of health insurance.

Singapore is cheaper and much higher performing than the NHS.

The NHS was the first, largecountry to offer universal care. However the compromises in creating it, and badly conceived and naive planning lets it down.

Death of labour party will see some much needed improvements with NHS.

I also find the 'NHS is great' quote just is not said amongst my friends and family, some having truely horrendous and cretinous NHS failings.

Did the actual output to input stats drive you to this conclusion, or is this the usual subjective opinion dressed as fact?

[Bruce Banner]

Did the actual output to input stats drive you to this conclusion, or is this the usual subjective opinion dressed as fact?

Comparison is of limited value, just because you can find something worse doesn't mean that what you have is good.

[Riedquat]

Apparently the money is just too good - why get all stressed with deadlines and out of hours working on a research investigation when its that much money for shift work. He said, most have "traded more income for loss of variety in their job role"

Sounds like a very strange thing to do unless you're struggling badly for money. "Hey, my job, which takes up a lot of my time, isn't anywhere near as interesting, but at least I get paid a bit more!" (unless it is the stress and deadlines).

[spyguy]

Did the actual output to input stats drive you to this conclusion, or is this the usual subjective opinion dressed as fact?

I spent some time working through health spending/ health outcome stats.

Take it or leave it.

Once you get beyond basic healthcare/immunisaton, childbirth, and the odd bit of emergency treatment, the mass health care bangs/bucks drops off rapidly.

Most of wests heath is down to cleanwater, sewerage + jabs. The contribution by the health system is relatively small.

[SarahBell]

How long do you have to wait for a new hip on the NHS these days?

I know quite a few who have ended up going privately because it simply wasn't worth waiting until your quality of life was so poor it was barely worth living.

Going privately you can get an appointment in no time so there's clearly no shortage of necessary resources.

I guess you could argue that those who can afford it subsidise those who don't. On the other hand you have half the population paying twice, and half the population not getting the operation because the waiting times are ridiculous. I don't see how that is a "gold standard worth saving at any cost" by any metric.

Either do it properly, or make everything private with only basic free public health care provision.. but then advertise it as such and not try to pretend it's something awesome when really it's pretty mediocre at best.

My mum didn't wait long. But she saw the doctor as one of his private clinics and he did her on the NHS.

I'm not sure how the lines are blurred between a doctor having his own private practice and how that impacts on NHS resources and time.

I would love to know.

[spyguy]

My mum didn't wait long. But she saw the doctor as one of his private clinics and he did her on the NHS.

I'm not sure how the lines are blurred between a doctor having his own private practice and how that impacts on NHS resources and time.

I would love to know.

In my job Id be sacked if I tried to compete or work with a competitor.

Its that simple and clearcut and in the contract.

[winkie]

In my job Id be sacked if I tried to compete or work with a competitor.

Its that simple and clearcut and in the contract.

.....this, your employer pays you full time money they expect 100% given to the job....they want you to eat and rest well and be fit to be fully productive to work the one job, one company.

[spyguy]

.....this, your employer pays you full time money they expect 100% given to the job....they want you to eat and rest well and be fit to be fully productive to work the one job, one company.

Me and partner went for a dcan for our youngest. As partner was over 35 (just!) they recommended we go for a neucol(??) scan at the private gospital, 0.5 miles down the road.

Turn up at 7pm. Go in, all the staff were the same from the NHS clinic!

[spyguy]

There is some fairly serious research that says having enough money to eat etc. is the main indicator of good health.

Go figure.

P

Clean water, working sewers, immunisation, good food (not expensive food!) , work, low stress, heathcare.

In that order.

[winkie]

Clean water, working sewers, immunisation, good food (not expensive food!) , work, low stress, heathcare.

In that order.

If we were all born healthy and stayed healthy, required no drugs apart from natures drugs available for all....died when it was the time to die with no intervention.....thousands of jobs would not be needed.

[Riedquat]

If we were all born healthy and stayed healthy, required no drugs apart from natures drugs available for all....died when it was the time to die with no intervention.....thousands of jobs would not be needed.

Well yes, but the "if we were all born healthy and stayed healthy" part is a rather big if.

[Riedquat]

All getting a bit philosophical now.. but health is a relative concept.

If most of us died by the age of 20, we wouldn't be thinking "God, we're so unhealthy".

If most of us died by the age of 20 due to external things (injury, infectious disease etc.) we might. If the human body just tended to pack up on its own by that age we wouldn't. That pack up and start falling apart time can get affected by living conditions but even in caveman times I suspect the common thought would be you're lucky to get old, rather than well, people simply don't live that long.

[Bruce Banner]

If the target of the NHS is to make everyone live as long as possible, it will always need more money.

Personally, and I speak as someone who is much nearer the end of my life than the beginning, I would like to see the NHS spend money on treating the cases which are easily treatable and cost effective, rather than spend bucket loads of money to make me live for another few years.

Surely its better to spend £100K on treating 20 people with a good prognosis than blowing the lot on one person who is going to kick the bucket in a few years anyway.

[winkie]

Kinda with you on that......give people the choice, keeping someone alive for a few weeks at great cost that could be used in a better way.

edit to say:.....I think doctors should be more honest with people, and I think people should be more accepting of death and loss....

[Bruce Banner]

Just a thought Bruce...that kind of advocates spending money on people that can't afford to pay for their own healthcare.

Rich people don't use doctors much. When they do it's relatively more likely to be high-end, non essential procedures.

Poor people have life-threatening, routine, eminently treatable health problems.

P

Yeah, I suppose it does, but it is the NHS .

When I was working I had private health insurance so I could get fixed quickly if necessary, so I was paying for the NHS and not using it. If I need the NHS in future I won't feel bad about using it although I'm not one for bothering doctors unless I'm at death's door.

[winkie]

I understand that the junior doctors are trying to protect their own interests/fighting their corner......but what about other important public sector services like police officers and prison staff they can't strike......neither can many private companies, don't like the new contract work elsewhere......I would say health is as important as safety and security.

[Will!]

If the target of the NHS is to make everyone live as long as possible, it will always need more money.

Personally, and I speak as someone who is much nearer the end of my life than the beginning, I would like to see the NHS spend money on treating the cases which are easily treatable and cost effective, rather than spend bucket loads of money to make me live for another few years.

Surely its better to spend £100K on treating 20 people with a good prognosis than blowing the lot on one person who is going to kick the bucket in a few years anyway.

In a way the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) does this by publishing guidelines on the cost-effectiveness of treatments, which provides a justification for them to be rationed by the NHS bodies that are responsible for paying for them. The guidelines are just guidelines, not rules, they're not perfect and lots of people are afraid of the word "rationing" but the idea is there.

[PopGun]

Comparison is of limited value, just because you can find something worse doesn't mean that what you have is good.

I presume you don't understand the merits of measuring what goes out against what goes in. Not surprising as not many in here do.

[PopGun]

I spent some time working through health spending/ health outcome stats.

Take it or leave it.

Once you get beyond basic healthcare/immunisaton, childbirth, and the odd bit of emergency treatment, the mass health care bangs/bucks drops off rapidly.

Most of wests heath is down to cleanwater, sewerage + jabs. The contribution by the health system is relatively small.

amd you wonder why people can't take you seriously..

[Bossybabe]

The more you feed it, the more it will waste!

I'd love to hear your personal experiences of this waste. Was it using too much toilet roll or paying too much to drug companies for pharmaceuticals?