Is The Sea Becoming More Dangerous Or Are People Becoming More Stupid

[workingpoor]

Tide Times for Camber Sands on Weds 24th August:http://magicseaweed.com/Camber-sands-Surf-Report/3940/Tide/?start=1471863600&end=1472641200

High tides at 3.33am and 3.57pm.

So either they went out around midnight on Tuesday to "play football" and got in to trouble at 3am when few people were around...

...or they were caught out during the late afternoon when lots of people were around.

P

The first of 3 bodies was spotted rolling in to the beach at approx 1:30/2pm so that rules out the 4pm tide leaving the 3:30am tide as the culprit?

Also the story has now changed from the family, it is no longer quicksand and a tragic rescue attempt, it is now they were way out far and got overtaken by the incoming tide.

Sky News.

I ASK AGAIN: HAS THE FOOTBALL BEEN RECOVERED? Y'KNOW THOSE FOOTBALLS WITH MAGNIFICENT FLOATING QUALITIES PUMPED WITH AIR?

HOW COME IT WASNT USED AS A FLOAT TO SAVE AT LEAST ONE?

[workingpoor]

To be found washing up dead at 2pm at cambersands means the 3:33am high tide must have been the cause?

Because 3 bodies were pulled from the sea before the 15:57pm high tide.

So the police are telling the public they travelled to the beach together for a day out to enjoy the hot weather?

Pretty basic investigatory work to check the high tide timetable isnt it!

[billybong]

One questions whether the "fully clothed" angle is to try to offer an "explanation" why they were the only ones - and nobody else from the hundreds/thousands evidently on the beach were caught out.

[SpectrumFX]

The first of 3 bodies was spotted rolling in to the beach at approx 1:30/2pm so that rules out the 4pm tide leaving the 3:30am tide as the culprit?

Also the story has now changed from the family, it is no longer quicksand and a tragic rescue attempt, it is now they were way out far and got overtaken by the incoming tide.

Sky News.

I ASK AGAIN: HAS THE FOOTBALL BEEN RECOVERED? Y'KNOW THOSE FOOTBALLS WITH MAGNIFICENT FLOATING QUALITIES PUMPED WITH AIR?

HOW COME IT WASNT USED AS A FLOAT TO SAVE AT LEAST ONE?

I'd presume that they went out onto the sand at low tide, or perhaps earlier and then followed the tide out. If you were near the edge of the sea at low tide, then you wouldn't need the full high tide to come in to be in trouble, all you'd need is for the first rush of the tide to come in quicker than you could move. Even if you were capable of moving at a quicker pace than the tide, then dicking about on a sandbank for too long before you realised what was going on could burn up too much time for you to outpace the incoming tide.

[workingpoor]

Ajirthan Ravi, whose brother Nitharsan was one of a group of friends who drowned during a trip to the beach on Wednesday, told Sky News they were taken by surprise.

He said they had gone to the water's edge at the popular East Sussex beach some way out but the tide suddenly turned.

Although all were good swimmers and tried to swim to the shore, they became trapped by a strong current and became exhausted.

Mr Ravi said: "They walked up to the ocean but a few minutes later the ocean came all the way back (in) so at that... point they were feeling they were going to get drowned.

The waters edge would have been miles out, and it wouldnt start coming back in until it had fiñished going out, so they must have been as far out as possible to get trapped by the tide coming back in?

And why would you be fighting against an incoming tide?

[billybong]

That tweet from the Police seems almost child-like? I wonder who at Sussex Police decided on that tweet. The use of 'us' reminds me of something that kids in school say.

It is not the role of the Police in our democracy to be the deciders of what people can make jokes about? They may think they have this power - they may want this power - but they need to be slapped down hard on by the PM if they continue in this way.

Apparently they seem to want to be the arbiters and enforcers of what is "appropriate" now.

That would give them massive opportunities for unnecessary and uncalled for interference in what people do and say - as well as make work and job creation.

[justthisbloke]

For the sleuths among you, it's not the high tide time you need to worry about - it's the mid-point between low and high tide. That's when the biggest changes in depth occur - and on a wide, flat beach you'll go from shallow to deep v quickly.

[SpectrumFX]

Yep the first reports around 1.57pm make it feasible they were caught up out by the afternoons rising tide ...but at mid afternoon on a day like that they would have been seen, surely?

P

I'd imagine so, but I did read a thing before about how drowning people don't look like the popular perception of drowning people.

We imagine it to be all noisy thrashing about, but usually it's more quietly sliping away as you lose the struggle and your energies give out. I'll see if I can find a link about it.

[SarahBell]

West sussex police have been embroiled in atwitter spat all morning, its just sad and moronic really morose:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/katie-hopkins-sick-camber-sands-8701711

I wonder what % of time and resources are spent on 'easy crime' these days.

[SpectrumFX]

I'd imagine so, but I did read a thing before about how drowning people don't look like the popular perception of drowning people.

We imagine it to be all noisy thrashing about, but usually it's more quietly sliping away as you lose the struggle and your energies give out. I'll see if I can find a link about it.

Here we go:

http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/

The new captain jumped from the deck, fully dressed, and sprinted through the water. A former lifeguard, he kept his eyes on his victim as he headed straight for the couple swimming between their anchored sportfisher and the beach. “I think he thinks you’re drowning,” the husband said to his wife. They had been splashing each other and she had screamed but now they were just standing, neck-deep on the sand bar. “We’re fine, what is he doing?” she asked, a little annoyed. “We’re fine!” the husband yelled, waving him off, but his captain kept swimming hard. ”Move!” he barked as he sprinted between the stunned owners. Directly behind them, not ten feet away, their nine-year-old daughter was drowning. Safely above the surface in the arms of the captain, she burst into tears, “Daddy!”

How did this captain know – from fifty feet away – what the father couldn’t recognize from just ten? Drowning is not the violent, splashing, call for help that most people expect. The captain was trained to recognize drowning by experts and years of experience. The father, on the other hand, had learned what drowning looks like by watching television. If you spend time on or near the water (hint: that’s all of us) then you should make sure that you and your crew knows what to look for whenever people enter the water. Until she cried a tearful, “Daddy,” she hadn’t made a sound. As a former Coast Guard rescue swimmer, I wasn’t surprised at all by this story. Drowning is almost always a deceptively quiet event. The waving, splashing, and yelling that dramatic conditioning (television) prepares us to look for, is rarely seen in real life.

The Instinctive Drowning Response – so named by Francesco A. Pia, Ph.D., is what people do to avoid actual or perceived suffocation in the water. And it does not look like most people expect. There is very little splashing, no waving, and no yelling or calls for help of any kind. To get an idea of just how quiet and undramatic from the surface drowning can be, consider this: It is the number two cause of accidental death in children, age 15 and under (just behind vehicle accidents) – of the approximately 750 children who will drown next year, about 375 of them will do so within 25 yards of a parent or other adult. In ten percent of those drownings, the adult will actually watch them do it, having no idea it is happening. Drowning does not look like drowning

[billybong]

Ajirthan Ravi, whose brother Nitharsan was one of a group of friends who drowned during a trip to the beach on Wednesday, told Sky News they were taken by surprise.

He said they had gone to the water's edge at the popular East Sussex beach some way out but the tide suddenly turned.

Although all were good swimmers and tried to swim to the shore, they became trapped by a strong current and became exhausted.

Mr Ravi said: "They walked up to the ocean but a few minutes later the ocean came all the way back (in) so at that... point they were feeling they were going to get drowned.

The waters edge would have been miles out, and it wouldnt start coming back in until it had fiñished going out, so they must have been as far out as possible to get trapped by the tide coming back in?

And why would you be fighting against an incoming tide?

During the day you would normally tend to find lots of people at the water's edge it's where they tend to go (maybe not so many if it's miles out) - so during the day there would be people to see what was happening and to help if possible. During the night there would be nobody else to see - or to help.

In the link below there's a photograph of the beach during the day apparently at low tide.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-holiday-makers-on-the-beach-at-camber-sands-at-low-tide-with-the-dungeness-18852277.html

And why would you be fighting against an incoming tide?

Indeed - strong swimmers could just let themselves go with the flow? There's the possibility of hypothermia - but in any event if it was during the day it would all have been seen (the scrambling to rescue from the quicksand etc) even if they didn't exactly cotton on to what it meant at the time? There are thousands shown to be on the beach.

[justthisbloke]

Drowning does not look like drowning

Didn't we have a whole thread on this topic?

That quote is 100% accurate. Not long ago, I pulled someone out of a swimming pool (!) who was done for. Her mates were within 5 feet of her and had absolutely no idea she was in trouble. Even I was stunned by how serene it looked. I almost hesitated from going in (I was just passing by) but thankfully my instincts won out and proved right. The lady was very, very, tearfully grateful. And I was pleased to know that somewhere deep in the old brain, I could still do it!

[SpectrumFX]

Didn't we have a whole thread on this topic?

That quote is 100% accurate. Not long ago, I pulled someone out of a swimming pool (!) who was done for. Her mates were within 5 feet of her and had absolutely no idea she was in trouble. Even I was stunned by how serene it looked. I almost hesitated from going in (I was just passing by) but thankfully my instincts won out and proved right. The lady was very, very, tearfully grateful. And I was pleased to know that somewhere deep in the old brain, I could still do it!

I think I did first read it on here, but I couldn't find the thread

[One-percent]

Ajirthan Ravi, whose brother Nitharsan was one of a group of friends who drowned during a trip to the beach on Wednesday, told Sky News they were taken by surprise.

He said they had gone to the water's edge at the popular East Sussex beach some way out but the tide suddenly turned.

Although all were good swimmers and tried to swim to the shore, they became trapped by a strong current and became exhausted.

Mr Ravi said: "They walked up to the ocean but a few minutes later the ocean came all the way back (in) so at that... point they were feeling they were going to get drowned.

The waters edge would have been miles out, and it wouldnt start coming back in until it had fiñished going out, so they must have been as far out as possible to get trapped by the tide coming back in?

And why would you be fighting against an incoming tide?

This seems very odd. Yesterday it was quicksand (which posters on this thread have shown to be very unlikely). Now, it is reported as an eyewitness account. How could this person possibly know? He also seems to think that the sea magically had a mind of its own and was very unpredictable. I was walking on the cliff top that day, another coastline, but, it was like a mill pond. When the sea is like that, it swells slowly in and recedes slowly out. There is no sudden and unpredictable movement. They might have been trapped on a sandbank, but with calm sea and not too far from the beach, and with them being reported as strong swimmers, I can't see them all been lost on n this way

[whitevanman]

Didn't we have a whole thread on this topic?

That quote is 100% accurate. Not long ago, I pulled someone out of a swimming pool (!) who was done for. Her mates were within 5 feet of her and had absolutely no idea she was in trouble. Even I was stunned by how serene it looked. I almost hesitated from going in (I was just passing by) but thankfully my instincts won out and proved right. The lady was very, very, tearfully grateful. And I was pleased to know that somewhere deep in the old brain, I could still do it!

Well done. It has never occurred to me that I wouldn't recognise drowning if I saw it. Hollywood has filled my head with nonsense!

[ccc]

Please explain just how they're speculating. Saying there's no indication of something (something that's a common assumption people leap to) is not speculating.

Ok so they were countering speculation. And they did so by stating something they could not have possibly known at that point.

It was the Police standard default position when it comes to the favourite subject of today.

They are more than happy to give it 'No comment' in any number of other cases. Why not this one ? Why not just say "We have no idea at present who these men were or there backgrounds - we are looking into it". Because that is the honest truth.

As I have said - "we have no indication they are migrants" is completely meaningless.

[Riedquat]

Ok so they were countering speculation. And they did so by stating something they could not have possibly known at that point.

What did they state that they could not possibly have known? The argument appears to be centred around "no indication of...". That's not saying that they know anything, just that they've not seen anything to support a particular assumption (which certainly doesn't rule out the possibility of finding something later).

[Riedquat]

Useful posts about drowning, but what are the signs? Obviously not struggling and splashing doesn't mean that someone is drowning. I suppose the look on someone's face can say a lot but isn't something you can tell from a distance. Appearing to stretch just to keep at least the nose out of the water and not getting further out much?

[workingpoor]

Put to sea in a boat in darkness to rendevous with another vessel? something happened and they washed back in over the course of the day?

Where was the Golf GTI (that they travelled in) found? Did it have a parking ticket on it? what time was on the parking ticket?

No witnesses so did they go out in a secluded spot away from the main beach or up the coast?

Just because they washed in at the main beach doesn't mean they went out at that point?

Basic Policework and they will know all these answers.

[Frank Hovis]

Well done. It has never occurred to me that I wouldn't recognise drowning if I saw it. Hollywood has filled my head with nonsense!

Another one (courtesy of QI) is that the reason people fall down when shot is because that's what they see happen in films.

In warfare a soldier can be shot and carry on running.

Obviously I am talking about ones that are not immediately fatal.

[ccc]

What did they state that they could not possibly have known? The argument appears to be centred around "no indication of...". That's not saying that they know anything, just that they've not seen anything to support a particular assumption (which certainly doesn't rule out the possibility of finding something later).

As I said before - so why would they bring it up ? Because people are speculating about it as has been muted ? I totally disagree.

"We don't know who they are - we will let you know when we get any more information"

Simple as that.

[SpectrumFX]

Useful posts about drowning, but what are the signs? Obviously not struggling and splashing doesn't mean that someone is drowning. I suppose the look on someone's face can say a lot but isn't something you can tell from a distance. Appearing to stretch just to keep at least the nose out of the water and not getting further out much?

They give some more info at the link I posted, as well as a video of the Instinctive Drowning Response which I haven't watched yet (I'm hoping it's a mock up rather than somebody actually drowning!)

From the same link here's a list of the signs they give;

• Head low in the water, mouth at water level
• Head tilted back with mouth open
• Eyes glassy and empty, unable to focus
• Eyes closed
• Hair over forehead or eyes
• Not using legs – Vertical
• Hyperventilating or gasping
• Trying to swim in a particular direction but not making headway
• Trying to roll over on the back
• Appear to be climbing an invisible ladder.

http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/

[justthisbloke]

That video (real, not mock up - but (spoiler) he gets rescued) shows a fair bit of splashing compared to my experience - which had more "bobbing". But I think in my case she really was in the last seconds.

[Will!]

For the sleuths among you, it's not the high tide time you need to worry about - it's the mid-point between low and high tide. That's when the biggest changes in depth occur - and on a wide, flat beach you'll go from shallow to deep v quickly.

According to magicseaweed.com on Wednesday 24th August that would be around 0045 hours or 1315 hours.

[workingpoor]

According to Locals and visitors you can walk out quite far (even at high tide) and the water is only thigh deep at camber sands, there are no shelfs or drop offs.