thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Why don't you regard pretty much refusing to negotiate the most mutually beneficial agreement possible if we leave as a threat? There's no benefit to the EU from taking a hard line. The most mutually beneficial agreement possible is what we've got. We don't want that by definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: The most mutually beneficial agreement possible is what we've got. We don't want that by definition. Why do you think that we've fot the best possible right now? Are you claiming that the EU is perfect? Edited November 7, 2016 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, Riedquat said: Why don't you regard pretty much refusing to negotiate the most mutually beneficial agreement possible if we leave as a threat? There's no benefit to the EU from taking a hard line. Because its not a threat, it's just asking the UK to decide whether overall membership of the EU is in its best interest. If they started giving external states the benefits of membership without the associated costs it would undermine the whole rational of membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, Confusion of VIs said: Because its not a threat, it's just asking the UK to decide whether overall membership of the EU is in its best interest. If they started giving external states the benefits of membership without the associated costs it would undermine the whole rational of membership. That assumes that the costs are necessary and justified, that there is a rationale for membership - positives for being a member, as opposed to negatives for not being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Why do you think that we've fot the best possible right now? Are you claiming that the EU is perfect? No, I'm claiming that the best possible relationship with it is to be part of it, and the fact that we have opt outs from most of the bits that we (in the majority) don't like shows that it is a much more flexible structure than many seem to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: No, I'm claiming that the best possible relationship with it is to be part of it, and the fact that we have opt outs from most of the bits that we (in the majority) don't like shows that it is a much more flexible structure than many seem to think. No opt out of free movement of people though, and that's an issue quite high on the agenda of the electorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, EUBanana said: No opt out of free movement of people though, and that's an issue quite high on the agenda of the electorate. It depends what you mean. A Russian living in France is not able to travel to the UK without a visa. We do have control of the borders, and we do have control of the benefits system. We just don't have the right to discriminate against EU citizens. If we got our own house in order it wouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It depends what you mean. A Russian living in France is not able to travel to the UK without a visa. We do have control of the borders, and we do have control of the benefits system. We just don't have the right to discriminate against EU citizens. If we got our own house in order it wouldn't be a problem. Yes it would. Yes it is. Yes it will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Nigel Farage forced to admit that the EU referendum was only 'advisory' 'The politicians lied all the way through because they didn’t say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It depends what you mean. A Russian living in France is not able to travel to the UK without a visa. We do have control of the borders, and we do have control of the benefits system. We just don't have the right to discriminate against EU citizens. If we got our own house in order it wouldn't be a problem. But a Frenchman living in France is. The EU is 510 million people, quite a lot of whom are significantly poorer than us, in many cases desperately poor. You don't need to add Russia on top of this to cause a problem. On top of that we don't have a contributions based benefit system but a more Marxist "you get what you need" based benefits system which is easily abused by people who would be living on a roundabout in Romania otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, ccc said: Yes it would. Yes it is. Yes it will be. If I can translate that I think you're saying yes it would be a problem, yes it is a problem, and yes it will be a problem? What exactly is this all about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 22 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: No, I'm claiming that the best possible relationship with it is to be part of it, and the fact that we have opt outs from most of the bits that we (in the majority) don't like shows that it is a much more flexible structure than many seem to think. As I've mentioned elsewhere an ever-increasing number of opt-outs indicates a fundamental incompatability that simply won't work long term, eventually the differences will become too large. The only real solution is for the EU itself to reform, and there's no chance of that (and some of its most disastrous decisions, such as the EE expansion, are irreversible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, rollover said: Nigel Farage forced to admit that the EU referendum was only 'advisory' 'The politicians lied all the way through because they didn’t say that. The advantage of an unwritten constitution is that we get to make it up as we go along. If they back down on Brexit there may well be trouble. If cannons are the last argument of kings, the last argument of democrats are pitchforks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It depends what you mean. A Russian living in France is not able to travel to the UK without a visa. We do have control of the borders, and we do have control of the benefits system. We just don't have the right to discriminate against EU citizens. If we got our own house in order it wouldn't be a problem. It'll remain a problem whilst there are large differences in wealth between the various parts of the EU, no matter how much we get our house in order. The best we could hope to do is take the edge off it if we stay in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Riedquat said: As I've mentioned elsewhere an ever-increasing number of opt-outs indicates a fundamental incompatability that simply won't work long term, eventually the differences will become too large. The only real solution is for the EU itself to reform, and there's no chance of that (and some of its most disastrous decisions, such as the EE expansion, are irreversible). Apply that logic to the Scottish parliament, the Welsh assembly, the Northern Ireland assembly, but no English parliament. Think we live in a sustainable country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, EUBanana said: But a Frenchman living in France is. The EU is 510 million people, quite a lot of whom are significantly poorer than us, in many cases desperately poor. You don't need to add Russia on top of this to cause a problem. There are plenty of people in the rest of the EU who are quite a lot richer than us, and plenty of people in the UK who are desperately poor. The disparities which have encouraged too much migration in the past few years are temporary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: If I can translate that I think you're saying yes it would be a problem, yes it is a problem, and yes it will be a problem? What exactly is this all about? "Getting our own house in order" would make us an even more attractive option for 510 million people to decide overnight to pop over here and use up resources we can't even utilise properly for our own nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: There are plenty of people in the rest of the EU who are quite a lot richer than us, and plenty of people in the UK who are desperately poor. The disparities which have encouraged too much migration in the past few years are temporary. Temporary ?!?! My word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, ccc said: "Getting our own house in order" would make us an even more attractive option for 510 million people to decide overnight to pop over here and use up resources we can't even utilise properly for our own nationals. By getting our own house in order I meant getting rid of a benefits system that gives you something for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Apply that logic to the Scottish parliament, the Welsh assembly, the Northern Ireland assembly, but no English parliament. Think we live in a sustainable country? No. Not sure what that has to do with the UK staying in the UK though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 1 minute ago, ccc said: Temporary ?!?! My word. On a scale of decades yes. When Spain and Portugal joined in the 80s the disparities were just as big and now they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: There are plenty of people in the rest of the EU who are quite a lot richer than us, and plenty of people in the UK who are desperately poor. The disparities which have encouraged too much migration in the past few years are temporary. How temporary? And will we eventually have an exodus, or was the result of this "temporary" situation a permanent damaging increase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 CPS considers complaint that leave campaigns misled voters The director of public prosecutions is considering a complaint that voters were misled by the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, in contravention of electoral law. The complaint about “undue influence” on the referendum campaign has been submitted by an independent group, spearheaded by Prof Bob Watt, an expert in electoral law from the University of Buckingham. Under electoral law “undue influence” is considered a corrupt practice and includes the use of “a fraudulent device or contrivance” to “impede or prevent or intend to impede or prevent the free exercise of the franchise”. Watt and his colleagues who have prepared the case say it centres on “instances where the leave campaigns continued to make assertions of fact that were knowingly misleading”, including the oft-cited claim of the EU costing the UK £350m a week. That claim, made by Vote Leave, was contrary to evidence from the Office for National Statistics, Watt said. Other instances cited to the DPP include alleged misrepresentations on pro-Brexit leaflets that Nissan and Unilever supported leaving the EU. Watt also cited Vote Leave’s posters that claimed “Turkey is joining the EU”, as well as the assertion that “the UK has no border controls whilst in the EU” when billions are spent on the UK Border Agency. None of us is willing to allow the UK to be dragged down to some kind of populist ‘who can lie and deceive the most? Vote Leave went beyond the normal bounds of political campaigning, telling blatant untruths about our contribution to the EU budget, Turkey joining the European Union, and much more. It’s about time they were held to account for misleading the British people.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Just now, Riedquat said: How temporary? And will we eventually have an exodus, or was the result of this "temporary" situation a permanent damaging increase? To some it's been a welcome reinfusion of our native European culture. The churches in some places have full congregations for the first time in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 14 minutes ago, rollover said: CPS considers complaint that leave campaigns misled voters The director of public prosecutions is considering a complaint that voters were misled by the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, in contravention of electoral law. The complaint about “undue influence” on the referendum campaign has been submitted by an independent group, spearheaded by Prof Bob Watt, an expert in electoral law from the University of Buckingham. Under electoral law “undue influence” is considered a corrupt practice and includes the use of “a fraudulent device or contrivance” to “impede or prevent or intend to impede or prevent the free exercise of the franchise”. Watt and his colleagues who have prepared the case say it centres on “instances where the leave campaigns continued to make assertions of fact that were knowingly misleading”, including the oft-cited claim of the EU costing the UK £350m a week. That claim, made by Vote Leave, was contrary to evidence from the Office for National Statistics, Watt said. Other instances cited to the DPP include alleged misrepresentations on pro-Brexit leaflets that Nissan and Unilever supported leaving the EU. Watt also cited Vote Leave’s posters that claimed “Turkey is joining the EU”, as well as the assertion that “the UK has no border controls whilst in the EU” when billions are spent on the UK Border Agency. None of us is willing to allow the UK to be dragged down to some kind of populist ‘who can lie and deceive the most? Vote Leave went beyond the normal bounds of political campaigning, telling blatant untruths about our contribution to the EU budget, Turkey joining the European Union, and much more. It’s about time they were held to account for misleading the British people.” Top trolling. Has WW3 started yet because of Brexit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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