The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One

[long time lurking]

Yes - I just added that to my original post

The lords can oppose it or ask for amendments, or rubber stamp it (it's a check and balance), but ultimately the mps in the commons and the government can combine to use the Parliament act to force it through the Lords - this takes time, but it shows that the Government of the day with the backing of majority of mps in the commons (and that's who we ultimately vote in - FPTP is for another debate)

Well it was more of a reply to this point

As I say dictatorships start with the courts either being controlled or abolished

Our courts are being "controlled" to a point by the EU i see that as the start of a dictatorship on a sovereign scale

[knock out johnny]

Kinda wondered why the voting areas for the referendum were not aligned exactly with the constituency boundaries, it would make identifying rebellious MPs from either side a bit easier.

Because it would have been a landslide for brexit - and they knew it

The brexit vote extrapolated in a FPTP constituency election would have returned a commons majority of circa 200 !

[knock out johnny]

Well it was more of a reply to this point

Our courts are being "controlled" to a point by the EU i see that as the start of a dictatorship on a sovereign scale

if parliament are unhappy about it they can change it

[The Knimbies who say No]

Because it would have been a landslide for brexit - and they knew it

The brexit vote extrapolated in a FPTP constituency election would have returned a commons majority of circa 200 !

Yeah, but I meant even if the votes were counted in the same manner- there were what, circa 400 referendum regions, versus around 650 parliamentary counstituencies. They could have divvied the referendum areas up in line with the constituencies so any MP would have a clear 'direction' should a vote in parliament arise subsequently. My EU referendum area was 'Wirral', which is served by 5 MPs. Should they all be expected to vote in line with the local referendum result in the even of a vote in Parliament?

I guess maybe the counting was more straightforward than a council or parliamentary and as such bigger areas could be handled easily to simplify the operation and keep costs lower.

[long time lurking]

if parliament are unhappy about it they can change it

They can not Dave proved that when he tried to negotiate benefit changes for immigrants

When you receive benefits it clearly states .".the law says you are entitled to £xs" Dave could have changed it for everyone granted but for some no ,so they can`t change everything the country is being dictated to on what laws it can enact

[knock out johnny]

They can not Dave proved that when he tried to negotiate benefit changes for immigrants

When you receive benefits it clearly states .".the law says you are entitled to £xs" Dave could have changed it for everyone granted but for some no ,so they can`t change everything the country is being dictated to on what laws it can enact

Parliament has agreed to the law as it currently stands - and part of what was agreed is to abide by eu law

Parliament is still sovereign - as they will prove if they decide to withdraw from the eu and then they can do whatever they want to benefits (which is why some voted brexit - to leave the eu and invoke article 50)

Edited July 9, 2016 by knock out johnny

[spunko2010]

Johnny there is everything backdoor about it hence why the people behind it aren't prepared to publicly come out and say who they are.

The semantics can be argued back and forth but in the eyes of the everyman we've had the referendum the result is clear. Any attempts to subvert that result will bring social unrest.

[knock out johnny]

Johnny there is everything backdoor about it hence why the people behind it aren't prepared to publicly come out and say who they are.

The semantics can be argued back and forth but in the eyes of the everyman we've had the referendum the result is clear. Any attempts to subvert that result will bring social unrest.

I'll try another way

Question. How do you want article 50 to be invoked?

Edited July 9, 2016 by knock out johnny

[spunko2010]

Sorry got confused I thought you were taking about the De Reya case.

[knock out johnny]

Sorry got confused I thought you were taking about the De Reya case.

It may have significance

How would you invoke article 50?

[long time lurking]

Parliament has agreed to the law as it currently stands - and part of what was agreed is to abide by eu law

Parliament is still sovereign - as they will prove if they decide to withdraw from the eu and then they can do whatever they want to benefits (which is why some voted brexit - to leave the eu and invoke article 50)

Exactly ,the only way we can disregard EU law is by leaving the EU ,until then we are being dictated to ....it`s irrelevant to me whether this is by consent

I don`t see the point of having sovereignty when it can only be a benefit to you if you leave the club

When we joined the common market it was about trade ,not a Political and definitely not a judicial union

[Limpet]

Parliament has agreed to the law as it currently stands - and part of what was agreed is to abide by eu law

Parliament is still sovereign - as they will prove if they decide to withdraw from the eu and then they can do whatever they want to benefits (which is why some voted brexit - to leave the eu and invoke article 50)

Parliament changes laws all the time, usually to the detriment of the general population.

All they have to do is un-agree to it. Being a sovereign nation and all that jazz.

What are they going to do, invade?

[geezer466]

It would be a strange thing if Parliament having included it in the Queen's Speech and then having agreed the idea of the eu referendum by a massive majority and with Royal Assent then decided to reject the result - but there again it's Parliament.

The specifics are quite clear. All this so called Court action is just publicity seeking it will be struck down as a matter of course. It is white noise nothing more nothing less.

Protocol demands that there will be a debate about the invocation of article 50. It will clearly be a lengthy and vocal debate. Many if not all MP's who want to will be allowed to speak. If the speaker decides there is significant opposition then he can call a division. Otherwise the motion would simply be nodded through. If there is a division:

The Government benches would undoubtedly whip their MP's and the vote would pass. In addition to that many Labour MP's support BREXIT anyway and would also vote with the Government, the opposition parties* would not whip the vote (against) on the basis it is the 'will of the people' from the referendum result.

*With the exception of the SNP and the NI parties who have a regional mandate.

I would expect the vote to pass without any problems whatsoever.....

But for clarity let us explore the alternative with the motion to invoke Article 50 being defeated in the House.

1. The Country would in effect become ungovernable, The Government would still have whipped the vote and lost control of their own MP's.

2. The markets, on the basis the Country is ungovernable would crash to never before seen levels moments after the vote. It would be the end for London as a financial centre and probably teotwawki.

3. Contagion would ensue and bring about financial Armageddon across the World.

4. The way forward would be unclear and uncharted, it is conceivable that a snap General Election would need to be held which is another reason MP's would not vote themselves out of a job.

So ladies and gents, it's quite clear, the motion will pass very easily.

Edited July 9, 2016 by geezer466

[Guest TheBlueCat]

How would you invoke article 50?

I'd write the invocation on used toilet paper and have it hand delivered to Juncker by a strippergram in a Nigel Farage mask.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

T

4. The way forward would be unclear and uncharted, it is conceivable that a snap General Election would need to be held which is another reason MP's would not vote themselves out of a job.

I guarantee you that Labour MPs, at least with things as they stand now, would sooner vote to bring back hanging and flogging than risk a general election.

[slawek]

But for clarity let us explore the alternative with the motion to invoke Article 50 being defeated in the House.

1. The Country would in effect become ungovernable, The Government would still have whipped the vote and lost control of their own MP's.

2. The markets, on the basis the Country is ungovernable would crash to never before seen levels moments after the vote. It would be the end for London as a financial centre and probably teotwawki.

3. Contagion would ensue and bring about financial Armageddon across the World.

4. The way forward would be unclear and uncharted, it is conceivable that a snap General Election would need to be held which is another reason MP's would not vote themselves out of a job.

This sounds even worse the Project Fear. I agree it would be a political mess but I think it would be seen positively by the market.

The best way forward is to have GE and then the vote. The current MPs don't have a proper mandate and would have to vote against their convictions.

[knock out johnny]

Parliament changes laws all the time, usually to the detriment of the general population.

All they have to do is un-agree to it. Being a sovereign nation and all that jazz.

What are they going to do, invade?

Good

Someone gets it

[Guest TheBlueCat]

This sounds even worse the Project Fear. I agree it would be a political mess but I think it would be seen positively by the market.

The best way forward is to have GE and then the vote. The current MPs don't have a proper mandate and would have to vote against their convictions.

Best way forward if you want the UK not to leave the EU I guess. For everyone else, the best way forward is for the Tories to elect a new leader and then to get cracking on getting us out of the EU. Cameron was very clear before the last GE that he'd stand down before the next one, so no-one can say that they were mislead about that.

[XswampyX]

This sounds even worse the Project Fear. I agree it would be a political mess but I think it would be seen positively by the market.

The best way forward is to have GE and then the vote. The current MPs don't have a proper mandate and would have to vote against their convictions.

Be careful what you wish for.... This is the PTB trying to give you (the remainers) brexit light.

Do you want a UKIP government? If people think they are trying to get out of it by calling an election then there's a good chance that is what you'll get.

You'll be moaning then!

[South Lorne]

It may have significance

How would you invoke article 50?

...might be too late by now....anyway....

Weak eurozone is on the brink, warns IMF...

as Nobel winner says euro could be scrapped

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3681077/Eurozone-course-economic-slowdown-Brexit-rising-uncertainty-EU-s-future-says-IMF.html

[slawek]

Be careful what you wish for.... This is the PTB trying to give you (the remainers) brexit light.

Do you want a UKIP government? If people think they are trying to get out of it by calling an election then there's a good chance that is what you'll get.

You'll be moaning then!

UKIP has no real chance to have majority in the parliament, they are far behind Con and Lab.

LibDem will probably get more votes as the only pro-EU party while Con, Lab and UKIP fight for Leavers. Will you moan then?

Edited July 9, 2016 by slawek

[long time lurking]

This sounds even worse the Project Fear. I agree it would be a political mess but I think it would be seen positively by the market.

The best way forward is to have GE and then the vote. The current MPs don't have a proper mandate and would have to vote against their convictions.

They have a mandate (withdraw from the EU) and they will do whats asked of them to kepp themselves in a job ,this hopefully will be enough ,if it`s not and they mess it up the next government will be a nationalist one that`s for sure ....UKIP in government would not be the best outcome IMO

[long time lurking]

UKIP has no real chance to have majority in the parliament, they are far behind Con and Lab.

LibDem will probably get more votes as the only pro-EU party while Con, Lab and UKIP fights for Leavers. Will you moan then?

They said that about the SNP not to long ago, the same will happen here for the same reason ,

Take a look at what UKIP achieved in the last local elections in Wales (may this year ) then take a look at where the leave vote came from one thing stikes you they are alll Labour heart lands

UKIP ...you have been ignored your vote was worthless etc.etc etc ...there`s only ever going to be one end game there

[slawek]

They have a mandate (withdraw from the EU) and they will do whats asked of them to kepp themselves in a job ,this hopefully will be enough ,if it`s not and they mess it up the next government will be a nationalist one that`s for sure ....UKIP in government would not be the best outcome IMO

I doubt the next government will be nationalistic, I guess 30-40% of the electorate have clear nationalistic views, they would have to concentrate in one party to have a chance to get majority, which is unlikely.

[SpectrumFX]

UKIP has no real chance to have majority in the parliament, they are far behind Con and Lab.

LibDem will probably get more votes as the only pro-EU party while Con, Lab and UKIP fight for Leavers. Will you moan then?

The Lib Dems may get more seats than UKIP, but I doubt that they'll get more votes.

UKIP got more votes than the Lib Dems and SNP put together at the last election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015#Minor_parties