Net Migration To Uk Rises To 260,000

[stormymonday_2011]

Because the massive net immigration is the only thing keeping various economic indices, principally GDP, in positive territory. Without it they would actually have to face up and fix the various systemic economic problems that we have.

That is the herd of elephants in the room that you only occasionally see mentioned in the MSM. With Labour productivity per worker down an estimated 16% since 2008 (nearly one fifth) the only way GDP can grow is to have more workers and to bid up the prices of non productive assets such as residential property. The huge numbers of migrants are a symptom of major structural issues with the UK economy. Governments have been using it for a decade to paper over the huge cracks in the edifice but the whole structure is teetering now. As I mentioned earlier the tipping point is when it is not just workers wages but company profits that get crushed by this imbalance. There are signs that this impact is now coming through as witnessed by the problems now confronting major UK supermarket chains. The fact that there are hundred of thousands more potential customers in the country but grocery sales are in decline ought to be ringing alarms bells all over

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/07/26/the-uk-economy-is-recovering-but-population-growth-is-flattering-gdp/print/

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0J20VX20141118?irpc=932

Edited November 29, 2014 by stormymonday_2011

[campervanman]

Why if immigration is so beloved, do all politicians, the left included, dodge the issue. Why do they kowtow to the masses by saying things like 'only a couple of thousand poles/romanians will come' They obviously say this because they know people are pissed off with their communities being sliced and diced and turned into refugee camps with zero cohesion and no common values.

Of course, now we know that its the same with romanian immigrants as it was with poles. Why then did the establishment say 'look its not a repeat of the Polish invasion again' (a whole 4 days after the border was opened!) when it was pretty obvious they wouldnt all arrive at once, in the middle of winter.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11225190/Romania-and-Bulgaria-migrants-reach-record-high.html

And why the feck do people say a million brits live abroad or the germans have more immigrants. Who cares? If the spaniards are pissed off with brits, send them back. If the germans think they are full up. Seal their borders. Isnt the whole point of being a sovereign democracy that we dont have to have the same policies as our neighbours.

Most brits want less immigration, many voluntary repatriation. We're supposed to be a democracy, so do it. The economic arguments have been the same for 50 years, people dont care about that.

And you lot accuse Boomers of short termism and selling off your future for their own benefit. If UKIP thinking does take hold, you and those people who advocate isolationism for your own short term benefit are going to need a lot of answers give to future generations when they start asking why they are grounded in prison camp UK whilst everyone else in Europe can freely travel, work and live in other European countries. Of course other countries have issues with immigration. The difference is that other countries understand that those short term issues are a price worth paying for Europe to survive as a united economic and political force for the benefit of future generations.

Edited November 29, 2014 by campervanman

[robo1968]

And you lot accuse Boomers of short termism and selling off your future for their own benefit. If UKIP thinking does take hold, you and those people who advocate isolationism for your own short term benefit are going to need a lot of answers give to future generations when they start asking why they are grounded in prison camp UK whilst everyone else in Europe can freely travel, work and live in other European countries. Of course other countries have issues with immigration. The difference is that other countries understand that those short term issues are a price worth paying for Europe to survive as a united economic and political force for the benefit of future generations.

Erm why is the AFD party in Germany so popular these days?

[Jolly Roger]

And you lot accuse Boomers of short termism and selling off your future for their own benefit. If UKIP thinking does take hold, you and those people who advocate isolationism for your own short term benefit are going to need a lot of answers give to future generations when they start asking why they are grounded in prison camp UK whilst everyone else in Europe can freely travel, work and live in other European countries. Of course other countries have issues with immigration. The difference is that other countries understand that those short term issues are a price worth paying for Europe to survive as a united economic and political force for the benefit of future generations.

I agree, the rape of our current daughters by cultural enrichers is a price worth paying so our future daughters can flit from country to country like rootless nomads. After all, they wouldn't want to be stuck on, dun-dun-duuuun, PRISON CAMP ISLAND, would they?

[DeepLurker]

Except that I'm not talking about posters here. I'm talking about those who are, despite all their protestations otherwise, racist, don't like coloured people, or don't like muslims. The sort of people who are taking out their immigration concerns on white East Europeans "because you can't be racist about white people" when what probably really concerns them is the growth of Islam and non-whites.

Have a look at this report on public attitudes to immigration, particularly figure 2 I think it's fair to say there is a section of the population for whom any immigration is too much (even when net migration was negligible).

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-concern

Remember UKIP are a political party, if they did get into a coalition government and the UK voted to leave the EU do you think they'd be prepared to disband, would they ignore the wails from a lot of their voters of "do something about mass-islamification or muslim migration" especially if there was another murder like that of Lee Rigby?

Ok, I am officially confused now.

There are any number of reasons to oppose the current system of mass immigration:

1. Inability to grow enough food for everyone.
2. Creation of an indentured subclass (see for example BBC article about slavery on the rise).
3. We're asset-stripping 3rd world countries of their most skilled workers (e.g. African nurses being bagged by the NHS).
4. Wish to completely stop any new building (the BANANA syndrome).
5. Racism.

So if I follow your reasoning, because some people, somewhere (but not on this forum), subscribe to reason 5., we on this forum are not allowed to discuss any of the other points?

[Marshmellow]

And you lot accuse Boomers of short termism and selling off your future for their own benefit. If UKIP thinking does take hold, you and those people who advocate isolationism for your own short term benefit are going to need a lot of answers give to future generations when they start asking why they are grounded in prison camp UK whilst everyone else in Europe can freely travel, work and live in other European countries. Of course other countries have issues with immigration. The difference is that other countries understand that those short term issues are a price worth paying for Europe to survive as a united economic and political force for the benefit of future generations.

Oswald Mosley wanted a united Europe too.

Bet you dont like him though

[olde guto]

OG - am I right to think that your position is that people are 100% interchangeable and all cultures are equally valid? Because if you do not believe that, you cannot criticise people who have a problem with immigration from some cultures.

To take the current bete noires out of it, if we had a problem with Aztec immigration, where willing human sacrifice was a core part of the culture, would you still say people who were objecting to such immigration as 'racist'?

Ok, I am officially confused now.

There are any number of reasons to oppose the current system of mass immigration:

1. Inability to grow enough food for everyone.
2. Creation of an indentured subclass (see for example BBC article about slavery on the rise).
3. We're asset-stripping 3rd world countries of their most skilled workers (e.g. African nurses being bagged by the NHS).
4. Wish to completely stop any new building (the BANANA syndrome).
5. Racism.

So if I follow your reasoning, because some people, somewhere (but not on this forum), subscribe to reason 5., we on this forum are not allowed to discuss any of the other points?

Perhaps I'm being a little too subtle.

I'm saying this country (i.e. not just this place) MUST discuss the whole f-ing immigration issue and not just stick bashing East Europeans. I have a very nasty feeling that the EU migrants are being made a scapegoat and the hidden (which are perhaps the real) concerns aren't being discussed.

Scapegoating and simplistic answers to everything won't solve the problems we have.

[@contradevian]

I agree, the rape of our current daughters by cultural enrichers is a price worth paying so our future daughters can flit from country to country like rootless nomads. After all, they wouldn't want to be stuck on, dun-dun-duuuun, PRISON CAMP ISLAND, would they?

The 'cultural enrichers' are not from the EU. Isn't nice Mr Farage wanting to re-establish ties with the former commonwealth? In fact I'm slightly baffled by what he means.

[Blod]

The 'cultural enrichers' are not from the EU. Isn't nice Mr Farage wanting to re-establish ties with the former commonwealth? In fact I'm slightly baffled by what he means.

Yes, I know having to listen and put aside your own point view is nearly impossible for you.

[@contradevian]

Yes, I know having to listen and put aside your own point view is nearly impossible for you.

Thanks for your contribution. Another Ad Hominem attack

Edited November 29, 2014 by aSecureTenant

[macbeth79]

The 'cultural enrichers' are not from the EU. Isn't nice Mr Farage wanting to re-establish ties with the former commonwealth? In fact I'm slightly baffled by what he means.

Who do you think in the UK has for all these years been the main sponsors of Goat herders from South Asia and why ?

Forget the illuminate or the elite or the royals or the rothschilds,

[billybong]

So it is.

....

So is it the 4% without homes here?

And does owning a property in another EU country mean you're not entitled to HB here?

All data as of 2007, only Switzerland data is from 2009.

+1

According to the 2007 figures Poland had 58% home ownership

http://

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

According to the 2012 figures Poland has 82.4% home ownership

http://

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

So in the 5 years from 2007 to 2012 Poland has increased its home ownership percentage by a huge amount. Is it just a coincidence that it's happened more or less in the same period that most UK youngsters have been as good as completely priced out of home ownership.

Indeed if the eu is a single entity and overseas people owning home country property are entitled to HB if working in the UK then shouldn't UK people who own a house and move to somewhere else in the UK also be entitled to HB as well.

The LibLabCon has a lot to answer for.

Edited November 29, 2014 by billybong

[Bland Unsight]

Welcome back CotB

The only country in the Western hemisphere that endorses open-door immigration is Britain. Would be nice if a single one of its proponents could put forward a rational argument as to why this is a good thing.

Immigration is tricky because it is an area where economic interests of elites clash with their need to maintain democratic legitimacy.

There is no right or wrong answer on immigration. It has benefits and costs. Given the way in which the UK population demographics would shift in the absence of inward immigration, you could argue that we must have it. However, obviously, if we have too many immigrants vectoring into specific areas there will be attendant disquiet as people struggle over scarce resources (mostly resources where the scarcity is a consequence of policy choices but, whatever.)

For me, in the UK policy debates about immigration are just a proxy war. We will exploit the lower orders. We will not seek to expand the means of production and share its fruits. We hate each other. We are happier with more of less, given that we live cheek by jowl with the proles who have less of less and their relative poverty gives value to our relative wealth.

The UK is Thorsten Veblein's conspicuous consumption doubled down. It's not important that I have lots. All that matters is that given that I see you, I have more than you.

It is this mutual hatred and distrust that makes us such saps for financiers. Any county which can be bid out of its houses by its bankers has serious issues.

[campervanman]

Oswald Mosley wanted a united Europe too.

Bet you dont like him though

I quite liked Churchill though who also wanted a US of Europe.

[campervanman]

Seems that the Swiss with twice the level of immigration as the UK have decided that the economic benefits of freedom of movement trump isolationism.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30267042

[billybong]

Maybe the UK should have a vote on it as well.

Given the chance the UK might vote the same way (or not).

Apparently in the last 18 years Switzerland has had 7 immigration related referendums. In February of this year there was the referendum "against mass immigration" which succeeded by a slim majority. That result still stands.

http://

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Switzerland

http://

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_February_2014

The latest referendum result (voting on the 0.2% of population figure) has been well highlighted by the bbc and was mentioned on the radio news yesterday. The radio news didn't seem to mention the February result.

The bbc headline below seems a bit misleading

http://

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30267042

Ecopop referendum: Swiss reject immigration curbs

- misleading as the referendum was about restricting the amount to 0.2% rather than whether or not there should be curbs.

Edited December 1, 2014 by billybong

[Marshmellow]

I quite liked Churchill though who also wanted a US of Europe.

It's not suprising that someone as obidient and politically correct as yourself likes the war mongerer Churchill.

No time for a disobidient opinion in your world.

[olde guto]

+1

According to the 2007 figures Poland had 58% home ownership

According to the 2012 figures Poland has 82.4% home ownership

So in the 5 years from 2007 to 2012 Poland has increased its home ownership percentage by a huge amount. Is it just a coincidence that it's happened more or less in the same period that most UK youngsters have been as good as completely priced out of home ownership.

Indeed if the eu is a single entity and overseas people owning home country property are entitled to HB if working in the UK then shouldn't UK people who own a house and move to somewhere else in the UK also be entitled to HB as well.

The LibLabCon has a lot to answer for.

Have a look at the graph from the front page

Draw a line from mid-2004 upwards, notice something? HPI was at its worst before Poland etc. joined the EU, after Poland joined it levelled out for around 12-18months (before the final death spurt).

One could argue that the expansion of the EU halted the mad period of HPI, but that would be as wrong as trying to blame the problem of HPI on the expansion of the EU and immigration. It's not the Poles that are to blame it's your fellow Brits, their greed and lax lending by banks. Immigration probably didn't make things better but it did not cause the problem.

[Executive Sadman]

Have a look at the graph from the front page

Draw a line from mid-2004 upwards, notice something? HPI was at its worst before Poland etc. joined the EU, after Poland joined it levelled out for around 12-18months (before the final death spurt).

One could argue that the expansion of the EU halted the mad period of HPI, but that would be as wrong as trying to blame the problem of HPI on the expansion of the EU and immigration. It's not the Poles that are to blame it's your fellow Brits, their greed and lax lending by banks. Immigration probably didn't make things better but it did not cause the problem.

I dont see why both cant be true. The dregs left poland, leaving the homeowning middle class in Poland, pushing up homeownership rates. The dregs relocated to the UK, but rent instead of buy...nonetheless still pushing up housing costs for poor young brits.

Same everywhere. There are plenty of intelligent skilled educated Mexicans...in mexico. The US gets the gangbangers/drug addicts/low skilled.

Same with our own historical emigrants. The huddled masses going to the new world were our dregs of the time.

[billybong]

Have a look at the graph from the front page

Draw a line from mid-2004 upwards, notice something? HPI was at its worst before Poland etc. joined the EU, after Poland joined it levelled out for around 12-18months (before the final death spurt).

One could argue that the expansion of the EU halted the mad period of HPI, but that would be as wrong as trying to blame the problem of HPI on the expansion of the EU and immigration. It's not the Poles that are to blame it's your fellow Brits, their greed and lax lending by banks. Immigration probably didn't make things better but it did not cause the problem.

Indeed there was a good chunk of HPI before 2004 but still a good bit afterwards however HPI is only part of the picture - there's the stagnation/decline in real average income of young people in the UK over the period along with a rapid increase in zero hour contracts and similar stuff especially after 2004.

Another chart - Polish-born people in employment in the UK 2003-2010

(for some reason like other charts the figures stop at 2010 - when the Conservative/LibDem coaltion took power)

The maximum numbers (so far - and for the period covered in the chart) more or less started to peak and then roughly plateau/grow less quickly around 2007/2008 and that time onwards would be the peak period of total annual earnings with maybe a lot of it sent back to Poland some of which might well have been pent on house purchases in Poland.

The link below is really to do with the Russia/Ukraine story but nevertheless

http://

globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/forced-conscription-ukraine-to-mobilize.html

Her son, a 19-year-old who recently dropped out of school, is suddenly eligible for the special call-up beginning today. Her best friend's son, mid 30's, came to Prague illegally to escape this "draft". He was sitting in my flat a couple days ago. He used to work in Poland, but the Poles have dramatically tightened up to avoid an onslaught of Ukrainian workers.

Of course there's probably no legal obligation to prevent their tightening up.

The Polish workers aren't to blame for the UK's fundamental housing/house price problem - they've moved to the UK to improve their lot and who can blame them for that when the opportunity was offered. Similar to British people and others if the opportunity is offered. The UK's fundamental house price problem is caused by other things like the UK's lax and fraudulent lending and the government's policies and schemes (H to B etc) but the numbers from overseas, mainly due to the government's lack of control, do aggravate the housing/house price problem and Poland's home ownership rate does appear to have accelerated extraordinarily over the period from 2007 to 2012 and maybe beyond 2012 to date as well - and it's around the same time as the UK's zero hours contracts etc have accelerated rapidly.

Edited January 21, 2015 by billybong