Windows 10

[Guest Jemmy Button]

I think of myself as a computer person (albeit one who's not bothered keeping up with every pointless new trendy bit of nonsense) and that's exactly what I want. I want the operating system to be a pretty minimalistic thing - it shouldn't really "do" anything from the user's point of view, just provide the platform from which they can run whatever software they want. From the point of view of using the thing nothing much has improved (and quite a bit has got worse) since XP, and that trend looks set to continue, in drastic directions. Even then I'd only argue for XP and not earlier because earlier versions had a bad habit of crashing.

That doesn't mean that every later version has been pointless, but the benefits are almost entirely all under the bonnet, hardware support, dodgy security bug fixes and so on.

I'd ditch Windows in a hearbeat if I didn't want to keep playing games (plus one or two other things) that only run on it. I really don't want a big pile of spyware and anyone who thinks that's a good idea needs locking away in the nearest loony bin.

Windows 8 (any version) offers nothing. 10 looks like it'll offer nothing. 7 only offered not being Vista (although I never felt the need for Classic Shell with Vista).

I run an entire video editing suite (adobe CC) and a music DAW using Desktop Windows 8.1. Don't try telling me that it doesn't work. A lot of improvements may be 'under the hood' but those improvements matter for the things I want it to do. Of course if I just wanted to play Solitaire, then, yup, XP would do the job. 3.1 would suffice.

[Riedquat]

For crying out loud did you read the bloody post? In particular the part where I point out that the under the hood things are not pointless? You seem to be trying to read it as "therefore I think they don't matter." No wonder I've got no patience for people any more.

[Bloo Loo]

Oh dear, not the "if you don't like all the new stuff then go to the opposite extreme" argument again. One change I would like is for people to move on from that tired old reply, usually said in tones suggesting the speaker thinks they're clever when in reality they're being the opposite. Particularly when I mentioned that the under the bonnet hardware support is one of the few benefits for having newer versions.

you cant argue part of the picture away...the OS includes lot of things that arent just hardware...DOS was perfectly adequate at the time.

Today, it isnt. Today, people dont want a command line system, they want buttons to press, they want the computer they buy to do things.

MS are just another Company in that respect, they want people to use their stuff and pay for it. This means adding things to match the competition. You only have to look at smart phones...most people arent aware of Android and its apps..they are aware they have something in their hand with buttons to press that do things.

You cant blame Microsoft for wanting the whole thing to be theirs.

[Riedquat]

You very definitely can argue part of the picture away, to say otherwise is to claim that every single change that has happened has to have happened so the only things that could ever have possibly been done are what has been done. That's clearly not true.

Where did I say DOS and a command line? You are doing exactly the one extreme or the other thing that I am thoroughly sick and tired of hearing to justify anything new and by now despise from the bottom of my heart.

What Microsoft are doing is increasingly putting off people by chucking in loads of unnecessary, additional rubbish that few people do actually want. They'd do a lot better IMO providing the OS and all the additional applications to go with it (that they seem to consider part of it for some bizarre reason) as two separate things, albeit perhaps sold as a bundle with no additional effort at all to have them all for those that want them.

[Guest Jemmy Button]

I did read it, yes....you said that "Windows 8 (any version) offers nothing". I am saying it does and works for me. Why you are crying over this, I honestly don't know. I suspect your unhappiness may be borne from you not being an adequate Solitaire player. But don't let it get to you - tell you the truth, I'm not very good at Solitaire either! But do keep trying young man! Maybe one day we'll both reach that promised Solitaire land in the sky. Big kiss!

[Bloo Loo]

You very definitely can argue part of the picture away, to say otherwise is to claim that every single change that has happened has to have happened so the only things that could ever have possibly been done are what has been done. That's clearly not true.

Where did I say DOS and a command line? You are doing exactly the one extreme or the other thing that I am thoroughly sick and tired of hearing to justify anything new and by now despise from the bottom of my heart.

What Microsoft are doing is increasingly putting off people by chucking in loads of unnecessary, additional rubbish that few people do actually want. They'd do a lot better IMO providing the OS and all the additional applications to go with it (that they seem to consider part of it for some bizarre reason) as two separate things, albeit perhaps sold as a bundle with no additional effort at all to have them all for those that want them.

I disagree.

I think they fracked up Windows 8 from the off. It IS Window XP with tweaks and developments under the UI.

Every computer I sell, they want it to do things out of the box. They want to add things, they want it to do what they have been doing better and faster.

You may be an exception...fair enough. But I can tell you, honestly, that My client yesterday, in her late 60s, was perfectly happy with W8, having been using Windows 7. She wanted her photos, her emails and the internet.

Works fine with those.

[Riedquat]

If I am an exception then it just reinforces my contempt for people. Having a computer that can do things out of the box isn't the same as having an OS crammed full of mindless tripe and a UI designed by idiots for idiots. If you want the mindless tripe then by all means sell a box with that bundled in with it. You said yourself that you didn't like the look of the social media direction that it looks like Win 10 is going in.

If all she wanted were her photos, emails, and internet then she'd already got them with Windows 7. What did 8 offer her? Perhaps there's an argument for a simple big shiny button version for someone who just wants a few basic tasks, that's no argument for bogging down everything with that, particularly since tablets and phones seem to be taking over the markets for people who just want a device for that.

Windows 8 is XP with developments under the UI? And big changes to the UI. The changes under the UI, to enable it to make better use of newer hardware, they're great. The UI itself? Please...

Saying that an operating system should be a clean, straightforward (but well designed and with thoughtful user interface principles built in to it) thing as far as the user-facing side goes does not preclude being able to use a computer to do a lot more, or from having it supplied with a setup of all sorts of additional fluff for those that want it.

[Oliver Sutton]

A fresh install of Windows 8.1 on a newly reformatted SSD HD, runs superbly for me. Windows 7 is good too but I couldn't go back to it. People who complain about Win 8.1 have probably never used it.

Edited to add that I don't use any of the apps and jump straight to the desktop. Biggest feature for me is the Search ability which is far superior to WIN 7

Just got a new PC with 8.1. Have an ssd only as well.

Quite impressed. Easy to get around (and I've come from XP).

Still got loads of old good features.

Can still put something on the desktop, give it a shortcut key, and use Alt Gr to open it up from anywhere. A feature from the very oldest version.

Windows E brings up explorer, windows E run etc.

[Steppenpig]

I don't really understand computers, but I'm surprised that there aren't independent alternative programs that provide a diferent interface/desktop/shell/whatever if microsoft don't provide what users want (like seems possible with linux). Or at least scripts that automatically do all the cleaning up and settings adjustments that most users want.

[Bloo Loo]

If I am an exception then it just reinforces my contempt for people. Having a computer that can do things out of the box isn't the same as having an OS crammed full of mindless tripe and a UI designed by idiots for idiots. If you want the mindless tripe then by all means sell a box with that bundled in with it. You said yourself that you didn't like the look of the social media direction that it looks like Win 10 is going in.

If all she wanted were her photos, emails, and internet then she'd already got them with Windows 7. What did 8 offer her? Perhaps there's an argument for a simple big shiny button version for someone who just wants a few basic tasks, that's no argument for bogging down everything with that, particularly since tablets and phones seem to be taking over the markets for people who just want a device for that.

Windows 8 is XP with developments under the UI? And big changes to the UI. The changes under the UI, to enable it to make better use of newer hardware, they're great. The UI itself? Please...

Saying that an operating system should be a clean, straightforward (but well designed and with thoughtful user interface principles built in to it) thing as far as the user-facing side goes does not preclude being able to use a computer to do a lot more, or from having it supplied with a setup of all sorts of additional fluff for those that want it.

she wanted the latest thing.

Lots of people do.

Thats why they queue up outside stores for the new Iphone, the new windows.

Sadly, those that queued for Windows Vista then Windows 8 got a pile of shite. Didnt stop them queuing though.

[Riedquat]

Never understood that attitude. Occasionally something new will excite me and I'll eagerly await it but I don't think that I've ever wanted anything just because it's new.

[thecrashingisles]

Never understood that attitude. Occasionally something new will excite me and I'll eagerly await it but I don't think that I've ever wanted anything just because it's new.

Yes it can lead you into trouble. In 1997 a lot of people just wanted a new government...

[Byron]

Unless Microsoft learn the lessons of Win 8, sack the team and get new in, this will be the turning point in their business as they slowly sink away from their prominent position.

It is quite unbelievable that a business with such huge resources should actually go to market with something as generally awful as Win 8.

But probably like deluded sellers, they will convince themselves that they are right and its up to people to follow them as they futilely chase the market down.

[spyguy]

Unless I'm getting it wrong, o me WIn 10 has the following:

- Windows like reliabillty (not good)

- Smart phone ease of use (fiddly + frustrating)

- Google like App infrastructure (a little ulitility + a lot of spying)

- A new secutiry model (full of new holes)

[frozen_out]

Yeah, from what I've read, the main thrust of Windows 10 appears to be increasing the amount that your computer spies on you. Unless they release a special, cut-down Business Edition with all that crap cut out, it looks like it will be another disaster in the business market.

You're missing the point - it's not for us, it's for our kids and grand-kids. In 30 years they'll be having exactly the same moans, how much better windows 10 was than windows z. It all used to be about social stuff, now it's just about VR and complete immersion. Who wants that stuff?

[QP1]

A lot of Windows hate on here and I’m not going to deny the Win8 had some very serious mistakes and short comings in the UI but Win8.1 is IMO very good and it seems Win10 will knock off the remaining rough edges and bring integration across form factors which is to be welcomed.

On a specific point there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about Apps on Win8/Win10 with a perception that Apps are pointless, spying, etc.

A key point of apps is that they cannot ‘spy’ without your permission – when you install an app it has to state what it will do (access your files, check your location, use your mic). If you don’t want it, don’t install it. You can make an informed decision (unlike with traditional desktop applications which might do or install anything). This is much the same on iOS and Android – I have an Android tablet where I have opted not to install dozens of ‘updates’ to apps because of a creep in the permissions they want on the device (e.g. why the hell does Amazon need to see my contact lists?).

Apps cannot install viruses, bloatware, toolbars, etc (all the things that ruin the experience on traditional Windows and give it such a bad rep). Apps create a single icon and you can remove the whole thing by uninstalling from that icon.

If there is an update or bug fix it will either install automatically (unless it wants additional access to your device/data in which case it will ask for your permission first) or inform you that an update is ready (your choice) saving your from having to go look for it.

If you get a new device(s) you can have it automatically install all the apps you had on your other device(s) – no fumbling for disks, looking for license codes or googling for web sites with a copy of the installation files.

The problem with Apps on Win8 desktop machines is they run full screen, have a poor interface for keyboard and mouse and, as they use a new ‘programming environment’ were immature (less polished and capable than traditional applications). Win10 fixes those issues.

Additionally Win10 brings Universal Apps (or more correctly, improves their capabilities). These promise a solution for developers to write Apps once (with some UI tailoring for varying form factors) and have them run on desktops, laptops, hybrids, tablets and game consoles (as long they are running Windows J). So you can have the same photo management app on all your devices with the same/similar functionality, ‘look and feel’ and synchronisation for your data and settings.

I’m hoping that universal apps will take off in a big way and replace browser based applications (especially in enterprise) which, despite all the trendy talk of responsive design, are uniformly ****ing horrible, buggy, inconsistent between browsers/versions and have hideous UX issues (backspace to remove some text you just typed but cursor isn't where you though it was – go to previous web page and lose all your work).

Currently, I don’t use Apps on my PC much – because I use it almost exclusively on a desk with a large non-touch monitor, keyboard and mouse; my wife however, who has a touch screen laptop-tablet hybrid uses them all time. Once I have the ability to use Apps in a window on my desktop, and have the same App (with tailored UI) on my phone, tablet and games console I can see myself using them quite a bit. Of course I will also use traditional desktop applications as well – because with Windows I have that choice.

[QP1]

Unless Microsoft learn the lessons of Win 8, sack the team and get new in, this will be the turning point in their business as they slowly sink away from their prominent position.

It is quite unbelievable that a business with such huge resources should actually go to market with something as generally awful as Win 8.

But probably like deluded sellers, they will convince themselves that they are right and its up to people to follow them as they futilely chase the market down.

They did sack the team behind Win 8. It was run by a guy called Sinofsky who was convinced he had Steve Job's talent for ignoring what customers were asking for and instead telling them what they want.

Sinofsky, his key henchment and the CEO who bought into his vision (Steve Ballmer) are all long gone.

The idea of an OS running across multiple form factors with a high level of compatibility and ability to switch modes (touch, keyboard mouse, voice, gesture) accordingly to usage is, IMO great, but clearly the execution is Win8 was poor and too jarring a switch for the existing user base and was ahead of the hardware capabilities by several years (though that was chicken and egg).

[thecrashingisles]

Unless Microsoft learn the lessons of Win 8, sack the team and get new in, this will be the turning point in their business as they slowly sink away from their prominent position.

It is quite unbelievable that a business with such huge resources should actually go to market with something as generally awful as Win 8.

But probably like deluded sellers, they will convince themselves that they are right and its up to people to follow them as they futilely chase the market down.

They sacked the guy who was in charge, Steven Sinofsky. So far it looks like they've learned the lessons. For one thing they've already made significant changes to Windows 10 during the preview based on feedback from users.

[Bloo Loo]

They sacked the guy who was in charge, Steven Sinofsky. So far it looks like they've learned the lessons. For one thing they've already made significant changes to Windows 10 during the preview based on feedback from users.

they also did for recent editions of Windows.

The problem is that it is mainly expert users who do the beta testing.

Idiots like me dont see it until the end users, who want to be able to use it straight away, have a panic attack on first view.

[Riedquat]

they also did for recent editions of Windows.

The problem is that it is mainly expert users who do the beta testing.

Idiots like me dont see it until the end users, who want to be able to use it straight away, have a panic attack on first view.

Yet it seems to be designed for idiots to be able to do something at the frustration of experts.

[Bloo Loo]

Yet it seems to be designed for idiots to be able to do something at the frustration of experts.

nah...empty screens with no way out, full screen internet explorer, hidden everyday commands, no hints.

was useless. Idiots should be able to use the interface.

Mostly fixed.

[Riedquat]

nah...empty screens with no way out, full screen internet explorer, hidden everyday commands, no hints.

was useless. Idiots should be able to use the interface.

Mostly fixed.

Those sorts of things annoy experts though, who hate having stuff hidden away from them. So who was Windows 8 supposed to be directed at? Suppose it all explains why it was such a flop.

[Bloo Loo]

Those sorts of things annoy experts though, who hate having stuff hidden away from them. So who was Windows 8 supposed to be directed at? Suppose it all explains why it was such a flop.

Well, I have no idea...kids with touch screens.

I found the first version could be made useable with the esc and windows keys. Then, drop the IE browser and use your favourite any other one. Then find out how to adjust the menu screen and set the machine to open to desktop.

Although I didnt offer any feedback other than refusing to recommend it, most of these things are fixed now and a few nice touches added...although IE is still horrible in my opinion.

[MrPin]

My experiences with cars is that they generally revert to the accepted norm.

Preselective gearboxes, manumatic boxes, square steering wheels and so on.

Ah ha. The Wilson pre-select transmission, or the Citroen C-matic? All bizarre.

The bizarre version of Windows did not sell!

[OnionTerror]

Ah ha. The Wilson pre-select transmission, or the Citroen C-matic? All bizarre.

The bizarre version of Windows did not sell!

You're not visiting this forum on your Abacus are you Mr P?