cock-eyed octopus Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I think I've just cracked the reason why we view the aristos in a different light to the chavs. The former frequently (but not always) add an element of gaiety, of beauty, glamour, (less frequently) intelligence, sheer bloody CHARM to proceedings. Wayne & Waynetta do not. They produce nothing, tangible or intangible. They just look fat, ugly, thick (albeit often blessed with low animal cunning) & grasping. Who has not fallen for a feckless charmer? History is littered with them. We cannot all have the looks or wit or live the life we would like, but we can live it vicariously through, say, the royal family. Of course, some people just get resentful (although not here, of course), but enough people are happy enough to live pretty mundanely & lap up the life they would love to live in the tabloids. It's always been thus & unlikely to change soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Blizzard) Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 People keep saying the Moors Murderers were evil, but what about Hitler??? If the government was carpet bombing Greater Manchester, then this analogy would be spot-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyOne Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 That was depressing. The 50p man seems to be a top bloke. Giving something away when you have almost nothing yourself is charity at its best. The lady who was the unofficial "street captain" (who probably exists on every street) might give a clue as to how the problem can be solved. There should be a way to decentralise distribution of Benefits to the street level and let people like her make more of the decisions for her community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Blizzard) Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I think I've just cracked the reason why we view the aristos in a different light to the chavs. The former frequently (but not always) add an element of gaiety, of beauty, glamour, (less frequently) intelligence, sheer bloody CHARM to proceedings. Wayne & Waynetta do not. They produce nothing, tangible or intangible. They just look fat, ugly, thick (albeit often blessed with low animal cunning) & grasping. Who has not fallen for a feckless charmer? History is littered with them. We cannot all have the looks or wit or live the life we would like, but we can live it vicariously through, say, the royal family. Of course, some people just get resentful (although not here, of course), but enough people are happy enough to live pretty mundanely & lap up the life they would love to live in the tabloids. It's always been thus & unlikely to change soon. That's how propaganda works - you've been trained to think this way. It could easily be the other way around. Benefit cheats: Charming aristocrat: Edited January 7, 2014 by (Blizzard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Well, that propaganda has been working since humans first appeared. The example of charming aristocrats you give is only sustainable in an incredibly repressive society. The aristos can, of course, push it too far - viz Marie Antionette. Trying to compare North Korea's ruling elite to our lot is what I believe they call an epic fail. And are you comparing Del Boy et al to Wayne & Waynetta? On what basis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Blizzard) Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Well, that propaganda has been working since humans first appeared. The example of charming aristocrats you give is only sustainable in an incredibly repressive society. The aristos can, of course, push it too far - viz Marie Antionette. Trying to compare North Korea's ruling elite to our lot is what I believe they call an epic fail. And are you comparing Del Boy et al to Wayne & Waynetta? On what basis? You have spectacularly missed my point. The image you have of the aristocracy and the underclass are not an accident and I picked a couple of fairly random images to illustrate how easily the media narrative could be different. I could have chosen from any number of evil kings and queens from history or from fiction, and I considered using a picture of Fergus Wilson. Having said that, European aristocracy were murderous despots, and directly comparable to the North Korean leadership until democracy reigned them in around 100 years ago. Think I'm exaggerating? It only seems like a ridiculous comparison because the ruling class controls the media narrative. Edited January 7, 2014 by (Blizzard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 That's how propaganda works - you've been trained to think this way. It could easily be the other way around. Benefit cheats: Charming aristocrat: Aww, lookit dem holding his wee hands Nice tennis match between Cybernoid and the rest on this thread, proving the point that propaganda works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 It has everything to do with it, but you're right it doesn't make this fictional. It's just that most people curiously roll their eyes and change the channel when they hear about billions being embezzled and yet get frothy about some poor lumpenproletariat with an iPhone and a 55 inch telly. People are strangely apathetic about their pensions etc being skimmed compared to their taxes being used to prop up an underclass. I am not I want both to stop. I don't believe there is anyone who is like that. People are strangely apathetic about their pensions etc being skimmed compared to their taxes being used to prop up an underclass. People don't understand pensions but don't confuse incomprehension with apathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You have spectacularly missed my point. The image you have of the aristocracy and the underclass are not an accident and I picked a couple of fairly random images to illustrate how easily the media narrative could be different. I could have chosen from any number of evil kings and queens from history or from fiction, and I considered using a picture of Fergus Wilson. Having said that, European aristocracy were murderous despots, and directly comparable to the North Korean leadership until democracy reigned them in around 100 years ago. Think I'm exaggerating? It only seems like a ridiculous comparison because the ruling class controls the media narrative. The problem for me is that I have met examples of both & they tend to confirm the stereotypes, & I suspect that this is most people's experience, hence the widespread distaste for chavs vs the aristos. There are of course huge variations in both groups, but nearly all aristos have some sort of saving grace c.f. the cheats & scroungers. I believe that is the main reason for the discrepancy in attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy soy Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Aww, lookit dem holding his wee hands Nice tennis match between Cybernoid and the rest on this thread, proving the point that propaganda works! For me there is no doubt that this is propaganda. Consider that out if the nearly 100 houses on the street containing recipients of welfare the producers focused on just 6 that were drawing welfare cheques. Of these 6, 4 were engaged in criminal activity and all were under 50. Where were the pensioners? The long term sick/ unemployed? the mentally ill? The boomers? Coinciding with the right wing media and Tory campaign of demonising working age recipients of welfare under 50, what a coincidence. Edit: it's not a coincidence as it is part of the Tory media narrative being crafted and aimed at the pensioner and boomer vote. Edited January 7, 2014 by hans kammler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 For me there is no doubt that this is propaganda. Consider that out if the nearly 100 houses on the street containing recipients of welfare the producers focused on just 6 that were drawing welfare cheques. Of these 6, 4 were engaged in criminal activity and all were under 50. Where were the pensioners? The long term sick/ unemployed? the mentally ill? The boomers? Coinciding with the right wing media and Tory campaign of demonising working age recipients of welfare under 50, what a coincidence. The problem is the Tories, not that Labour did not solve this problem in 13 years in office but the Tories! Of course there are lots of welfare recipients who deserve it but there are some problem people and attacking the messenger will not solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) What did strike me was the rubbish on the street. Google maps shows the same https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=james+turner+street+birmingham&ll=52.49551,-1.941125&spn=0.002975,0.00604&client=firefox-a&hnear=James+Turner+St,+Birmingham,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.49562,-1.941147&panoid=j4FDJ9oA8DJj2rwDsle6yg&cbp=12,5.72,,0,-0.38 http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/benefits-street-tv-show-lied-6470342 But Ms Howe said: ‘‘They’ve just tried to make us look like slums. Everyone on the street is fuming about it. Edited January 7, 2014 by SarahBell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) What did strike me was the rubbish on the street. Google maps shows the same https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=james+turner+street+birmingham&ll=52.49551,-1.941125&spn=0.002975,0.00604&client=firefox-a&hnear=James+Turner+St,+Birmingham,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.49562,-1.941147&panoid=j4FDJ9oA8DJj2rwDsle6yg&cbp=12,5.72,,0,-0.38 Litter annoys me, I would at least pick up what was near my house, and a few houses down too. I suppose the difference is whether or not you have a VI in your area. When I lived on a country lane I used to cover the entire 1.5 mile length on my walks with a litter bag. Edited January 7, 2014 by crashmonitor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Litter annoys me, I would at least pick up what was near my house, and a few houses down too. I suppose the difference is whether or not you have a VI in your area. Vested interest in picking litter up? There aren't any wheely bins on show so it might be they haven't got any. Perhaps wheely bins tend to mean less rubbish strewn about the streets - they aren't ripped into by dogs etc. We pick bits of litter up from outside our house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinAndPlatonic Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Vested interest in picking litter up? Of course...its good for absolutely everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinAndPlatonic Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I believe there are no solutions, no golden bullet. There will always be takers and givers, with huge variations in between. What I find frustrating is the time and negative energy some people use to shout about how awful these people are, and what should be done to them. I sat watching the programme shaking my head and totally bemused. Would I like to live next door to these people...no I would hate it. There will always be people like that and always be people who are willing to literally kill others to , in their minds, survive. That`s why there is a system in place, in most countries to control the population and police it, some better than others. So many say they want to escape this evil country yet do not get that it`s quite possible where they end up is far worse in terms of lack of discipline and order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Where are all the real life documentaries about bankers, heriditary peers fiddling their expenses, and land owning rentiers who are subsidised as "farmers" by the EU to the tune of several thousand each a week I wonder? From movies like Wall Street on, I think most media is quite hostile to the things you suggest. Not necessarily documentaries, but fiction demonising them, comedians having a go, etc. Landlordism (and land owning rentiers) seems to get a pass though I do admit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I am not I want both to stop. I don't believe there is anyone who is like that. People don't understand pensions but don't confuse incomprehension with apathy. Well, we'll have to disagree. Not taking the time to understand something that is likely to be an extremely decisive part in how comfortable a considerable percentage of your life is apathy in my book. And as for the top part, why not sit on a bus, chat to your friends who aren't as economically aware as you and listen to what they talk about. If the discussion even slightly goes that way, benefit long termers, romanian immigrants etc will usually have them frothing one way or another. Even the Guardian 'reader' will prefer to talk about his. The second you talk about big business fraud, HPI etc people glaze over and go - what you can you do eh? Try it. It doesn't matter which side of the spectra you sit on. There are very, very few people who focus on the pillage from the top - and the media keeps it that way. It's not something that particularly bothers me any more, its transparent and very funny to see because I have opted to laugh rather than cry now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 From movies like Wall Street on, I think most media is quite hostile to the things you suggest. Not necessarily documentaries, but fiction demonising them, comedians having a go, etc. Landlordism (and land owning rentiers) seems to get a pass though I do admit. It's painted in an entirely different way though. Film's might appear to demonise it, but the spoils of wealth are absolutely in primary focus and, in the end, that's the message most see. To aspire to be like them because they have shiny stuff. Comedy, well - again - sit there, laugh and then shrug and go back to your life is what the majority do. There is no interest in changing things for the majority. This is the difference - the lower end 'cheats' are given quasi-documentaries like this, where as the higher end ones are given blockbuster budgets to be consumed with popcorn or beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Jib Fingers Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I honestly don't get the Pavlovian response of "But what about the bankers?!" to anyone mentioning the behaviour of some people on benefits. It's like you aren't allowed to mention it for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Vested interest in picking litter up? There aren't any wheely bins on show so it might be they haven't got any. Perhaps wheely bins tend to mean less rubbish strewn about the streets - they aren't ripped into by dogs etc. We pick bits of litter up from outside our house. Birmingham City council introduced wheelie bins for the first time last year, although the roll-out won't be completed until 2015. Until recently local rubbish operatives were picking up ~£40k/yr through various scams which led to a lot of wildcat strikes, and attendant mess, when they got found out. In its haste to bring these disputes to an end the council was found to have acted illegaly and ended up with an equal pay bill likely to top £1bn. I know the James Turner Street area well. Winson Green prison is just round the corner. Economists argue that prison districts tend to be deprived because over time relatives of the incarcerated migrate to it to shorten the distances they have to travel. I think it more likely that prisons are located in poorer areas because poor people kick up less of a fuss than their well-to-do neighbours. Either way, the programme struck me as a highly accurate portrait of the country's second city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlu Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I honestly don't get the Pavlovian response of "But what about the bankers?!" to anyone mentioning the behaviour of some people on benefits. It's like you aren't allowed to mention it for some reason. I think it's the other way around. This is, after all, a thread discussing a program that sought to cast benefit claimants in the worst possible light by focussing on the minority who abuse the system. Does benefit fraud annoy me? Of course it does, but it hasn't managed to fvck up my life the way the scum-sucking financial elites have managed to do. Edited January 7, 2014 by tomandlu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I honestly don't get the Pavlovian response of "But what about the bankers?!" to anyone mentioning the behaviour of some people on benefits. It's like you aren't allowed to mention it for some reason. Because it avoids the painful reality of who was in power whilst this mess was created Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 It's like you aren't allowed to mention it for some reason. It's not very PC to pick on the shoplifters and alkies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I think it's the other way around. This is, after all, a thread discussing a program that sought to cast benefit claimants in the worst possible light by focussing on the minority who abuse the system. Does benefit fraud annoy me? Of course it does, but it hasn't managed to fvck up my life the way the scum-sucking financial elites have managed to do. You mean the Labour Party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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