Moving From Benefits To Work Incredibly Difficult.

[Self Employed Youth]

Your on the dole, claiming the de facto citizens income (JSA+HB+CTB), but perhaps you think you can make work pay.

You think you can be better off working than upon benefits, or at least be doing something productive. You come up with a business plan and you come off of the dole. You claim the help your entitled to in the form of NEA (cash payments of £65/week for 13 weeks and £33/week for 13 weeks).

But you lose out on all your entitlements to means tested benefits and must apply for them again. These being; housing benefit, council tax benefit, and free healthcare.

So you have a pop at working to your business plan, and all is going pretty well. Your earning some dosh, not enough to break free of benefit, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere eh.

1. Your housing benefit and council tax benefit is cancelled. - So you now have to re-apply for these as a self employed person, this stops you from working for a day. They send you the wrong form, you complete it without knowing it is the wrong form, send off and wait and then they send you the right form, you lose another days work, you then have to attend in person to show accounts etc. - another days work lost. Your now being threatened with eviction. - You have to spend another day chasing that up and notifying them of what is happening. Yet another day's work lost.

2. Misfortune occurs, your tooth snaps, you require dental treatment, you also have an appointment for opticians. You notify the dentist's registrar of your circumstances and book an appointment, they say it will be fine for you to attend and to show proof of free healthcare entitlement at a later date. So you take another day off of work and attend. They refuse to treat you because you have no money and no proof of entitlement to free healthcare, even though you have notified them you will soon be receiving proof. So you have to re-book an appointment, and lose yet another day of work. The HC1 form must be completed and various proofs sent. (That was a day in itself). So you have now lost even more days.

Yet if you had not had a pop at working you would have had none of the above problems. Your treatment would be free, your benefits would have been paid without any stoppage.

These are just a couple of the problems associated with moving into work. They could be ironed out at source, and instead of faffing about spending days and days filling out forms for benefits for workers, you could actually be working in the first place.

Then there is of course all the other red tape, like registering with HMRC, keeping accounts, gaining licenses to trade and complying with those licenses (have had hassle from the police when trying to trade - even though I am licensed by them).

This leads to stress which leads to psychotic thoughts, yet you can't go to the chuffing doctors because your waiting for your HC1 form to go through so you can get free prescriptions, so whilst your going mental over the lack of access to free healthcare your entitled to. You can't get any anti-psychotics when you need them and are at risk of an episode because you can't afford to cash a script. There is some bloody irony there.

Right now I wish I was still on the dole, all I had to do was fill out one form and sign my name fortnightly, now I am no longer on the dole I seem to be filling out a new form every week and cannot access services I should be able to.

Rant over, but I hope I highlight some problems of the current system wrt moving from benefits into work/ work+in-work benefits.

[Patfig]

Your on the dole, claiming the de facto citizens income (JSA+HB+CTB), but perhaps you think you can make work pay.

You think you can be better off working than upon benefits, or at least be doing something productive. You come up with a business plan and you come off of the dole. You claim the help your entitled to in the form of NEA (cash payments of £65/week for 13 weeks and £33/week for 13 weeks).

But you lose out on all your entitlements to means tested benefits and must apply for them again. These being; housing benefit, council tax benefit, and free healthcare.

So you have a pop at working to your business plan, and all is going pretty well. Your earning some dosh, not enough to break free of benefit, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere eh.

1. Your housing benefit and council tax benefit is cancelled. - So you now have to re-apply for these as a self employed person, this stops you from working for a day. They send you the wrong form, you complete it without knowing it is the wrong form, send off and wait and then they send you the right form, you lose another days work, you then have to attend in person to show accounts etc. - another days work lost. Your now being threatened with eviction. - You have to spend another day chasing that up and notifying them of what is happening. Yet another day's work lost.

2. Misfortune occurs, your tooth snaps, you require dental treatment, you also have an appointment for opticians. You notify the dentist's registrar of your circumstances and book an appointment, they say it will be fine for you to attend and to show proof of free healthcare entitlement at a later date. So you take another day off of work and attend. They refuse to treat you because you have no money and no proof of entitlement to free healthcare, even though you have notified them you will soon be receiving proof. So you have to re-book an appointment, and lose yet another day of work. The HC1 form must be completed and various proofs sent. (That was a day in itself). So you have now lost even more days.

Yet if you had not had a pop at working you would have had none of the above problems. Your treatment would be free, your benefits would have been paid without any stoppage.

These are just a couple of the problems associated with moving into work. They could be ironed out at source, and instead of faffing about spending days and days filling out forms for benefits for workers, you could actually be working in the first place.

Then there is of course all the other red tape, like registering with HMRC, keeping accounts, gaining licenses to trade and complying with those licenses (have had hassle from the police when trying to trade - even though I am licensed by them).

This leads to stress which leads to psychotic thoughts, yet you can't go to the chuffing doctors because your waiting for your HC1 form to go through so you can get free prescriptions, so whilst your going mental over the lack of access to free healthcare your entitled to. You can't get any anti-psychotics when you need them and are at risk of an episode because you can't afford to cash a script. There is some bloody irony there.

Right now I wish I was still on the dole, all I had to do was fill out one form and sign my name fortnightly, now I am no longer on the dole I seem to be filling out a new form every week and cannot access services I should be able to.

Rant over, but I hope I highlight some problems of the current system wrt moving from benefits into work/ work+in-work benefits.

F_cking good ere innit

[scrappycocco]

init some......and all because of the banking system.......

compound interest and fractional reserve banking, until these go there will be no change........

[RichB]

*you're....

Though I am concerned it takes you a day to fill in a form...

[Butthead]

Moving From Benefits To Work Incredibly Difficult. Benefits system incredibly attractive, grossly unfair on the middle class who pay for it and completely unsustainable.

Corrected for you

[interestrateripoff]

That's because you should stay on benefits.

Once you are on them it's pointless getting off them, unless you land a highly paid job.

It's a pity we don't have a time machine to bring Beveridge here, I'm sure he'd be stunned by what's been created although it's certainly a safety net, one you can't get out of. No wonder many have worked out it's better not to try and just game the system.

[Butthead]

init some......and all because of the banking system.......

compound interest and fractional reserve banking, until these go there will be no change........

Would you like to elaborate on which poor outcome or failure of the benefits system in the OP's post is as a result of the banking system?

[Butthead]

That's because you should stay on benefits.

Once you are on them it's pointless getting off them, unless you land a highly paid job.

It's a pity we don't have a time machine to bring Beveridge here, I'm sure he'd be stunned by what's been created although it's certainly a safety net, one you can't get out of. No wonder many have worked out it's better not to try and just game the system.

Safety net:

[JimDiGritz]

...

Right now I wish I was still on the dole, all I had to do was fill out one form and sign my name fortnightly, now I am no longer on the dole I seem to be filling out a new form every week and cannot access services I should be able to.

...

I was initially sympathetic. Then I realised that you are effectively having to do what we (employed & self employed) all have to do, all of the time, and some of us get no benefits whatsoever.

You have, inadvertently, really highlighted the problem here. It's just too easy and simple to sign on and have everything taken care for your by the state and taxpayer. Life is f**king complicated and stressful. There are forms to fill in for most important things in life, sometimes you do lose money/time due to bureaucracy and BS red tape.

******ing man up.

[Injin]

Moving From Benefits To Work Incredibly Difficult. Benefits system incredibly attractive, grossly unfair on the middle class who pay for it and completely unsustainable.

Corrected for you

Actually most benefits are simply the state cancelling it's own demands for money.

Doesn't actually cost anything.

[Self Employed Youth]

That's because you should stay on benefits.

Once you are on them it's pointless getting off them, unless you land a highly paid job.

It's a pity we don't have a time machine to bring Beveridge here, I'm sure he'd be stunned by what's been created although it's certainly a safety net, one you can't get out of. No wonder many have worked out it's better not to try and just game the system.

Aye.

The problem is greater than the 100%MDR. You get further deductions and hoops to jump through on top.

It shouldn't be so though. Somebody working should be better off.

We need a social safety net, but we should ensure it is part of a trampoline which helps people spring back up. Rather than one caked in glue that sags.

[JimDiGritz]

In fact, now my blood is up, I'll go further...

If I was responsible for the benefits system I would PURPOSEFULLY send out the wrong forms, make them 600% too long and mke all signing on processes as circuitous and tortuous as possible.

That would sort the wheat from the chaff.

Signing on SHOULD be at least as much work as a full time job.

[Blue Peter]

In fact, now my blood is up, I'll go further...

If I was responsible for the benefits system I would PURPOSEFULLY send out the wrong forms, make them 600% too long and mke all signing on processes as circuitous and tortuous as possible.

That would sort the wheat from the chaff.

Signing on SHOULD be at least as much work as a full time job.

I don't know about signing on, but that certainly seems to be the approach if you have a special educational needs child,

Peter.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Great post OP, couldn't agree more. The whole state mindset is that the only type of job worth considering is one where you work for someone else full time. The benefits system is designed around that idea. That someone would want to start a business or be self employed just doesn't occur to them because the people involved with the policy are statist anti-capitalist types to a man/woman. F*ck free-enterprise, you should live off the state or work for a big corporation, end of story.

[Self Employed Youth]

In fact, now my blood is up, I'll go further...

If I was responsible for the benefits system I would PURPOSEFULLY send out the wrong forms, make them 600% too long and mke all signing on processes as circuitous and tortuous as possible.

That would sort the wheat from the chaff.

Signing on SHOULD be at least as much work as a full time job.

How you going to work when all you do is fill out forms?

Surely having a benefit system that incentivises and encourages work (whilst providing a social safety net/minimum standard of living) is the best? Rather than means testing every little thing for he sake of it, in turn hampering production and lowering living standards...

[JimDiGritz]

How you going to work when all you do is fill out forms?

Surely having a benefit system that incentivises and encourages work (whilst providing a social safety net/minimum standard of living) is the best? Rather than means testing every little thing for he sake of it, in turn hampering production and lowering living standards...

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

[vzzzbx]

It wouldn't be so bad if you were required as a condition of getting those benefits to do some socially useful activities for a few hours each week. Even if it's only something like clearing up litter or re-painting fences.

I get the feeling there's lots of unskilled jobs that need doing to keep things running smoothly that could be done by people on benefits.

[Self Employed Youth]

It wouldn't be so bad if you were required as a condition of getting those benefits to do some socially useful activities for a few hours each week. Even if it's only something like clearing up litter or re-painting fences.

I get the feeling there's lots of unskilled jobs that need doing to keep things running smoothly that could be done by people on benefits.

Wouldn't it be better to offer an abundance of minimum wage work?

Let you work 12 hours a day as often as you wish. Saying building council houses like they did back in the 1930s.

Although I can see a few problems.

-Many people would jack in their jobs and report only for this work, due to there being A. work, B. plenty of it, C. a fair wage.

-We would soon run out of work.

[Butthead]

It wouldn't be so bad if you were required as a condition of getting those benefits to do some socially useful activities for a few hours each week. Even if it's only something like clearing up litter or re-painting fences.

I get the feeling there's lots of unskilled jobs that need doing to keep things running smoothly that could be done by people on benefits.

Careful! That's "Slavery" according to many posters here and benefits have to be paid as an entitlement because the people who receive them have been so "wronged" (deliberately vague and unspecific) that it's the least society can do.

[iamnumerate]

That's because you should stay on benefits.

Once you are on them it's pointless getting off them, unless you land a highly paid job.

It's a pity we don't have a time machine to bring Beveridge here, I'm sure he'd be stunned by what's been created although it's certainly a safety net, one you can't get out of. No wonder many have worked out it's better not to try and just game the system.

To be fair to him, the system he designed is not very similar to the current one. He was I think against housing benefit.

[Goat]

Wouldn't it be better to offer an abundance of minimum wage work?

Interesting blog on the effect of minimum wage:

Message to the TUC: the minimum wage causes youth unemployment

If you raise the price of something then people will buy less of it. Raise the price of labour and fewer people will be employed. This was all pointed out when the NMW was introduced but as has been said since, the promised wave of mass unemployment didn't happen. Why not?

simply put it depends upon what the minimum wage is. If it's less than 45 per cent or so of the average wage then the effects will be very small. Some tens of thousands of people perhaps and we'll not really notice that given that the economy as a whole creates and destroys two to three million jobs a year. However, once that wage starts to get over 50 per cent of the average wage, then we start to see the effects. As a percentage of youth wages, what is the youth minimum wage? Answer: for 18-21 year-olds, 65 per cent; for 16-18 year-olds, 76 per cent.So, in that 18-21 year group, we’ve a minimum wage which is 65% of the mean wage. Well into our territory where we expect to see substantial employment effects. For 16-18 year olds, the minimum wage it’s £3.68……76%.

Ooops!

It was always going to be this way too. Whatever the effects of a statutory wage are, we're going to see the effects upon those who have the lowest value labour. That's the young and untrained where the employer simply doesn't know what that value is – whether there is in fact any value at all

[@contradevian]

Bad luck but keep at it. I think its best to persevere

Also just think of the working tax credits you get in a few weeks time.

Technically though I think you should have got Housing Benefit run on for at least a month and at least a "Back to work" job grant from JCP of £50/100 as a bribe for signing off.

Also it seems Kirklees MC are notoriously slow at Housing Benefit changes, and don't chase S/E for months, and even if you were to be overpaid HB, the repayment is very small.

Spend the time to seek out other opportunities. Wander round the flea markets and see what has Ebay/Gumtree potential. Also CeX ridiculously overpay for some items too. Try and maintain a small amount of cash for opportunities.

Try and get some regular recurring work that involves labour, though I know its tough in Barnsley where everybody is skint. Only the fogeys have money but are reluctant to part with it, and you've got to be very careful in your dealings with them.

Then there is Ebay, Betdaq etc ..the list is endless.

I agree though, unless you can guarantee clearing at least £200 pw you can end up in big trouble.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Socially Housed

[RichB]

I really don't see how it takes 12 hours to fill in a form...

[southmartin]

Actually most benefits are simply the state cancelling it's own demands for money.

Doesn't actually cost anything.

It's not often I get a moment of clarity - but that's just made me open-jawed at the realisation of it all.

Which is unusual, because your posts are normally batsh1t mental ;-)

[Goat]

that is one sh!t article

You mean you don't like the conclusions.