Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 You started talking about the welfare state and then swapped topics. Jesus. I agree the public sector pensions were never payable. But that's ok, they don't have anything to do with the welfare state. Nope. The welfare state both was and is capable of being funded for centuries. Would you like to know why? You cannot separate one from the other Injin although clearly this is necessary for your arguments to make any sense. The main function of the welfare state is to provide jobs for the people who run it, so the cost of their salaries and pensions is integral to the cost of the system as a whole. Much as you would like to argue otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 You cannot separate one from the other Injin Ye, you can. And you did. And then I did! although clearly this is necessary for your arguments to make any sense. The main function of the welfare state is to provide jobs for the people who run it, so the cost of their salaries and pensions is integral to the cost of the system as a whole. Much as you would like to argue otherwise. Nah, the main purpose of the welfare state is to alleviate the guilt of the middle classes who are smart enough to get ahead but have just enough empathy to feel bad about how they are doing it. I'll unhappily agree that it gets hijacked in practice, but it'll just get rebuilt - the middle class need their guilt outlet. Without it, they'll campaign for actual changes, and the PTB won't want that. No sirree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Ye, you can. And you did. And then I did! Nah, the main purpose of the welfare state is to alleviate the guilt of the middle classes who are smart enough to get ahead but have just enough empathy to feel bad about how they are doing it. I'll unhappily agree that it gets hijacked in practice, but it'll just get rebuilt - the middle class need their guilt outlet. Without it, they'll campaign for actual changes, and the PTB won't want that. No sirree. Most of the middle classes are employed by the welfare state and they couldn't give a sh*t about the people at the bottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Most of the middle classes are employed by the welfare state and they couldn't give a sh*t about the people at the bottom Completely wrong. Large %age of the middle class vote lefty to get stuff for the disadvantaged as well as making sacrifices (fair trade, shopping around for ethics and all that other guff) for moral reasons. The idea that people dont give a toss is daft. They really do. They just aren't very good at translating it into workable action and they get easily sidetraked by liars in suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Completely wrong. Large %age of the middle class vote lefty to get stuff for the disadvantaged as well as making sacrifices (fair trade, shopping around for ethics and all that other guff) for moral reasons. The idea that people dont give a toss is daft. They really do. They just aren't very good at translating it into workable action and they get easily sidetraked by liars in suits. Take housing benefit as an example If the right propose cutting it in order to reduce rents the Guardianistas are up in arms because most of them own buy to let properties. The main beneficiaries of the welfare state have been the middle classes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Take housing benefit as an example If the right propose cutting it in order to reduce rents the Guardianistas are up in arms because most of them own buy to let properties. The main beneficiaries of the welfare state have been the middle classes the right as far as i can see throughout history have never proposed cutting it as a benefit, its their core foundation of power, theyve just proposed reducing the poors direct involvement from the equation of payment Edited July 30, 2012 by Tamara De Lempicka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 the right as far as i can see throughout history have never proposed cutting it as a benefit, its their core foundation of power, theyve just proposed reducing the poors direct involvement from the equation of payment Personally, I don't think I have ever heard a right wing policy proposed in this country in my lifetime and I am over 50. At the moment everyone from the left to the not quite as left are fiddling while Rome burns because the only way back from where we are now are truly radical, right wing policies and no one has the balls to even propose real solutions. So basically the whole thing is just going to slowly collapse in a messy, unplanned and unnecessarily prolonged and painful fashion because no one can face the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Personally, I don't think I have ever heard a right wing policy proposed in this country in my lifetime and I am over 50. At the moment everyone from the left to the not quite as left are fiddling while Rome burns because the only way back from where we are now are truly radical, right wing policies and no one has the balls to even propose real solutions. So basically the whole thing is just going to slowly collapse in a messy, unplanned and unnecessarily prolonged and painful fashion because no one can face the truth. You have to be taking the piss, surely? We've had right whinge politics for at least 40 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Personally, I don't think I have ever heard a right wing policy proposed in this country in my lifetime and I am over 50. At the moment everyone from the left to the not quite as left are fiddling while Rome burns because the only way back from where we are now are truly radical, right wing policies and no one has the balls to even propose real solutions. So basically the whole thing is just going to slowly collapse in a messy, unplanned and unnecessarily prolonged and painful fashion because no one can face the truth. Well im quite young but LLoyds and the huuriedly rushed protection of Limited Liability to special flowers was hardly left, Equitable life and Peers getting their sorry guaranteed ass bailed out, hardly left, the removal of rent controls,how very Stalin, the state bailing out of bankrupt bondholders, how very Marxist, you can go right back to the start and deposit protection for investors, how very red or dead, no doubt if you see Sid youll tell him he was a commie next Edited July 30, 2012 by Tamara De Lempicka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Well im quite young but LLoyds and the huuriedly rushed protection of Limited Liability to special flowers was hardly left, Equitable life and Peers getting their sorry guaranteed ass bailed out, hardly left, the removal of rent controls,how very Stalin, the state bailing out of bankrupt bondholders, how very Marxist, you can go right back to the start and deposit protection for investors, how very red or dead, no doubt if you see Sid youll tell him he was a commie next This thread is supposed to be about how difficult it is to move from benefits into work. The reason it is difficult is because the people who pay for the system are ordinary working people who are taxed so heavily as a result that they end up taking home less than if they were on benefits. I live in an ordinary northern working class town and got sick of working my balls off for nothing so chucked the towel in eight years ago and have been better off ever since. I am not happy about this situation because I would much rather have got a fair days work for a fair days pay and supported my family. At the end of the day, the most vocal people arguing for a continuation of this f*cked up system are those who benefit the most ie the middle classes, most of whom are employed running the system. The people who supposedly benefit from the system are just cannon fodder and are trapped in dead end lives, smoking and drinking themselves to an early grave. It is hard to get off benefits and into work - because the system doesn't want people to get off benefits, for exactly the same reasons as the people responsible for the adoption system won't let anyone adopt. If there wasn't millions of people living on welfare and thousands of kids in children's homes most of the people who read the Guardian would be out of a job and would struggle to earn even half what they do now in the private sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 This thread is supposed to be about how difficult it is to move from benefits into work.The reason it is difficult is because the people who pay for the system are ordinary working people who are taxed so heavily as a result that they end up taking home less than if they were on benefits. I live in an ordinary northern working class town and got sick of working my balls off for nothing so chucked the towel in eight years ago and have been better off ever since. I am not happy about this situation because I would much rather have got a fair days work for a fair days pay and supported my family. At the end of the day, the most vocal people arguing for a continuation of this f*cked up system are those who benefit the most ie the middle classes, most of whom are employed running the system. The people who supposedly benefit from the system are just cannon fodder and are trapped in dead end lives, smoking and drinking themselves to an early grave. It is hard to get off benefits and into work - because the system doesn't want people to get off benefits, for exactly the same reasons as the people responsible for the adoption system won't let anyone adopt. If there wasn't millions of people living on welfare and thousands of kids in children's homes most of the people who read the Guardian would be out of a job and would struggle to earn even half what they do now in the private sector. That's a good summation- it's perverse incentives all the way- from the 'clients' to those who 'serve' them to the BTL landlords who cash the housing benefit cheques. It's funny how both the richest people and the poorest are both enmeshed in systems that incentivise bad behaviour- the bankers at the top and the unemployed at the bottom. The difference is that the majority of bankers were given every opportunity imaginable in life- whilst most of the unemployed were not. And the real hypocricy is that we demand the unemployed display a moral imperative to transcend their incentives- while offering every possible excuse for the bankers who cannot seem to stop paying themselves millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 That's a good summation- it's perverse incentives all the way- from the 'clients' to those who 'serve' them to the BTL landlords who cash the housing benefit cheques. It's funny how both the richest people and the poorest are both enmeshed in systems that incentivise bad behaviour- the bankers at the top and the unemployed at the bottom. The difference is that the majority of bankers were given every opportunity imaginable in life- whilst most of the unemployed were not. And the real hypocricy is that we demand the unemployed display a moral imperative to transcend their incentives- while offering every possible excuse for the bankers who cannot seem to stop paying themselves millions. Well thanks for not telling me I don't have a clue what I am talking about. Now we have accepted the system is broken, perhaps we could accept that abolishing banking is not the answer, the answer is to change the system. As I keep repeatedly saying, the left wing alternative was tested to destruction in the 20th Century so perhaps we could try giving people back some of their freedom including the freedom to fail if they can't be bothered to try and make something of their lives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self Employed Youth Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 This thread is supposed to be about how difficult it is to move from benefits into work. The reason it is difficult is because the people who pay for the system are ordinary working people who are taxed so heavily as a result that they end up taking home less than if they were on benefits. I live in an ordinary northern working class town and got sick of working my balls off for nothing so chucked the towel in eight years ago and have been better off ever since. I am not happy about this situation because I would much rather have got a fair days work for a fair days pay and supported my family. At the end of the day, the most vocal people arguing for a continuation of this f*cked up system are those who benefit the most ie the middle classes, most of whom are employed running the system. The people who supposedly benefit from the system are just cannon fodder and are trapped in dead end lives, smoking and drinking themselves to an early grave. It is hard to get off benefits and into work - because the system doesn't want people to get off benefits, for exactly the same reasons as the people responsible for the adoption system won't let anyone adopt. If there wasn't millions of people living on welfare and thousands of kids in children's homes most of the people who read the Guardian would be out of a job and would struggle to earn even half what they do now in the private sector. +1 I don't know what to do. Have been working, and income is slightly up this week. (Still nowhere near enough to BROB (Break Free Of Benefits). Now 25. Have submitted WTC claim. Have seen a few jobs worth applying for. But don't fully meet specification, perhaps need some volunteering with children under my belt. And lots more licenses so I can do other work! Reported my first repair in my housing benefit flat this week. Need a Derwent Macdee 3part metro siphon replacing in the toilet cistern. Could do it myself but t would be at a cost of £20. Have recently replaced washers in the taps at cost of 20p/go. everything 29 years old in my flat. By rights I should be working full time and pulling a decent wage. Probably be back on JSA soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 +1 I don't know what to do. Have been working, and income is slightly up this week. (Still nowhere near enough to BROB (Break Free Of Benefits). Now 25. Have submitted WTC claim. Have seen a few jobs worth applying for. But don't fully meet specification, perhaps need some volunteering with children under my belt. And lots more licenses so I can do other work! Reported my first repair in my housing benefit flat this week. Need a Derwent Macdee 3part metro siphon replacing in the toilet cistern. Could do it myself but t would be at a cost of £20. Have recently replaced washers in the taps at cost of 20p/go. everything 29 years old in my flat. By rights I should be working full time and pulling a decent wage. Probably be back on JSA soon enough. I have kids, so I am really not happy about the way things have worked out, hopefully as my 2 sons are doing degrees in Engineering at a top Uni they should be able to jump over the 15-25k better off not working trap, but I am not happy that they will be paying massive rent on a sh*t flat somewhere to a slum landlord. The system is completely f*cked up and it has absolutely nothing to do with bankers or banking politicians asked them to produce magic money which kept the show on the road for another 5-10 years then when the inevitable collapse occurred politicians paid bankers to take the blame. At the end of the day, massive changes are coming IMO and if you have even a modest amount of intelligence and are prepared to work hard you should be ok. Millions of other people who milked the system on the other hand are going to see their fantasy World fall apart and that includes most Guardian readers who get 40k+ a year for doing utterly pointless jobs, the main purpose of which is to make other peoples lives utterly miserable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Basically the state has decided it can: Educate your kids - it can't Provide you with a home - it can't Ensure you are healthy - it can't Look after you in old age - it can't What it can do is prevent you from doing this yourself by taking every spare penny and hour of your time then utterly squander this money failing spectacularly to do what you could do for yourself if the state didn't prevent you. What we need IMO is a very small state which provides an environment in which people can do things for themselves in which they are given incentives to do the best for themselves and their families and despite what the middle class readers of the Guardian may think we are a million miles from anything like this at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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