yokel Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Just a thought, and not based on any knowledge or research; but how would Lovepigeon and her family stand in going to the local authority as having been made homeless through no fault of their own, and, as they have a baby they should be housed by the local authority. It goes against the grain for people who are used to paying their own way, but might be worth a shot. Another couple of things for retaliation would be to check on the Land Reg if there is a charge (mortgage) against the house and then investigate if it has been varied to allow a renting out. If the LL was just doing it to fill a gap he may well not have informed the bank. A polite enquiry to the agents just to confirm the mortgage arrangements may put the wind up them and at the very least smooth the process of getting your deposit back or transferring to another property without having fees for credit checks etc. Also, when we last rented, we insisted on a 1 year contract and the deletion of the automatic inflation rise in rent after the year as well. Any reasonable landlord would be happy to have 1 year - the argument about seeing if you're good tenants is BS - if you don't follow the contract the length of the term is irrelevant. Good luck in finding somewhere. It is horrible when you first start to learn how dishonest many people are and the danger is that it makes you distrusting of everyone which changes your own personality. You can continue to be yourselves but just make sure things are nailed down in writing when it comes to big things like housing deals with people you don't really know. Y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PropertyAnalyser Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I am so sorry to hear this has happened to you. It is one of the thighs that caused me endless stress while I was renting. We now have 4 children (5yrs, 2yrs and 9 months old twins!) and a massive mortgage on an overpriced house. Still stressed, but at least I have some control over the situation now. I swore I would never buy at such stupid prices, but the system (AST's mainly) works against families. In the end I decided to exchange the risk of being kicked out for no reason at all! for the risk of increased mortgage payments/defaults etc. I am lucky because I have family who would help us out in the short term if we got into financial problems, but they could do absolutely nothing if we got served a S21 notice. It is a terrible system that values families, security of tenure and local links so low, but as others have said, the ones with the properties make the laws, so it is never going to change. You could fight it, looking for loop-holes or simply refusing to move out, but I would save my energy and start looking for a new home. You could even consider buying if that is an option for you. I was surprised at just what the bank would lend me, so it might be an option, but do make sure you do all the sums/budgets etc. Prices are falling, and interest rates will go up, so it is not a good time to buy from a financial point of view, but with a family to think about, it isn't always about the money, well-being and security are also very important. It really should be a human rights violation to force someone out of their home if they have done nothing wrong. I am so lucky it never actually happened to us. It was stressful enough for our children (and us) when we moved by choice. On a positive note, you might find a really good landlord next time! They do exist. I genuinely hope you find somewhere nice to live, and it isn't too stressful moving. Please let us know how things go. Stuart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 What address has the landlord given on the rent agreement?. That is where their address should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disenfranchised Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I've lurked on HPC for a while now and need to vent on what has just happened. I feel we have really been screwed over by our landlord/the estate agents. We moved in in September. We were surprised to see contract was only 6 months so before signing I checked with the agents as to why this was and stressed we were after a much longer term contract and wanted to stay fixed somewhere for at least a couple of years. They said it was standard procedure for initial 6 months before signing a longer term contract to make sure we are good tenants - pay rent on time etc and that it would be no problem extending contract after this first 6 month contract. So we move in and settle in, preparing for arrival of our baby and making our house feel like home. We have been faultless tenants - paid rent on time, kept house clean and tidy, done up the garden that was left in a state etc. On the other hand we have never been able to get hold of the landlord (she provided no contact details) and it took 3 months for the lights in our bedroom to get fixed (estate agent had to send out their own electrician after months of trying to get landlord to do this despite landlord having chosen to manage the property herself). As we approached the end of the 6 months we receive letter informing us that landlord wants to move us onto rolling contract. Again I ring the agents to first ask if we can have a fixed term contract for 12 months or preferably longer since we want to stay in this house and would like the security. Agent replies that landlord wants rolling contract but that this is not because she wants us out and that we should not worry as rolling contract is standard etc. Now 3 months later (9 months since we moved in) we have just been served 2 months notice to move out. We have a 3 month old baby and have invested time into making this house our home (such as getting curtains to fit windows as unfurnished and none provided, getting a cheap lawnmower and doing up the garden as was left as overgrown jungle of weeds). I had been getting to know the neighbours and feel settled and happy to have a nice home for my daughter. I feel incredibly stressed at the thought of having now to find a new place to live, pack everything into boxes again, pay all the money for the applications and so on especially when we have not even been here a year. EA says landlord has job back in this area now so wants to move back. What really pisses me off is I feel they have deliberately misled us on the intentions of the landlord (don't know if it is ll or EA who is to blame for this). We made it clear from the start that we wanted somewhere long term and we could have easily moved into a different property back in September. If they had been honest about the situation of the landlord and that this was their home (ie not a professional landlord) and there was chance they would move back at any time then we would never have chosen this house. The landlord has simply used us to pay her mortgage for a couple of months. I am so fed up with the way you are treated as a tenant in the UK. It is very one sided in terms of the power of information - LL can request all sorts of financial referees and guarantors from you but there is little information on the background of the LL and their intentions that you as a tenant can get or they can outright mislead you on the intentions of the landlord as in our case. Any sympathy would be welcome as I feel really upset right now about leaving what I thought was my home (logical part of my brain is using this experience to strengthen my resolve to move to Germany/Netherlands as soon as I have a few more years experience in my job) . I feel for you. It's the flipside of many small private LL's - houses are rarely homes for renters, because it's THEIR commodity first, our home second, so we are disenfranchised. The EA has quite likely taken the fees without a thought for matching LL to tennent, it might be that they got sold a line by the LL but I doubt it. Personally, I'd kick off with them a bit in the office, just for karma and so forth! I suspect your LL was always had a clear intention of coming back at some point, only they know the truth though. What you need is a LL renting a property they DON'T want to live in ever, because they are more likely to value a 12 month contract and stable rent income. There are plenty of 12 monthers available round here and I would as a rule offer LESS rent in exchange for signing a longer contract in a declining market? My LL has cut my rent this year when I said I was moving out as it was not competitive. Be tough and stick to your guns when finding your new LL, go willingly though, its never going to be your home again, so taking the initiative will be the happier course in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longtermrenter Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Section 1 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 provides: Disclosure of landlord’s identity. (1) If the tenant of premises occupied as a dwelling makes a written request for the landlord’s name and address to— (a) any person who demands, or the last person who received, rent payable under the tenancy, or (b ) any other person for the time being acting as agent for the landlord, in relation to the tenancy, that person shall supply the tenant with a written statement of the landlord’s name and address within the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which he receives the request. (2) A person who, without reasonable excuse, fails to comply with subsection (1) commits a summary offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale. (3) In this section and section 2— (a) “tenant” includes a statutory tenant; and (b ) “landlord” means the immediate landlord. Section 38 of the same Act contains the following definition: “address” means a person’s place of abode or place of business or, in the case of a company, its registered office So all that is clear. Make a request to the landlord's agent or the person who demands or the last person to accept rent and he must dislcose the actual address of the landlord, in the case of an invidual his home or business address or in the case of a company its registered office. Section 47 (1) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 provides: Landlord’s name and address to be contained in demands for rent etc. (1) Where any written demand is given to a tenant of premises to which this Part applies, the demand must contain the following information, namely— (a) the name and address of the landlord, and (b ) if that address is not in England and Wales, an address in England and Wales at which notices (including notices in proceedings) may be served on the landlord by the tenant. "Address" is not defined in the Act, but a recent decision of the Upper Tribunal (Lands Chamber) held that an agent's address is not sufficient because the section refers to the address and paragraph (b ) indicates that paragraph (a) must refer to the actual address. Section 48 (1) and (2) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 provides: Notification by landlord of address for service of notices. (1) A landlord of premises to which this Part applies shall by notice furnish the tenant with an address in England and Wales at which notices (including notices in proceedings) may be served on him by the tenant. (2) Where a landlord of any such premises fails to comply with subsection (1), any rent or service charge otherwise due from the tenant to the landlord shall (subject to subsection (3)) be treated for all purposes as not being due from the tenant to the landlord at any time before the landlord does comply with that subsection. The sole purpose of the provision is to provide an address for service of notices in England and Wales. It can be any address. So for section 1 Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 and section 47 Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 the address must be where the landlord can be found, whilst for section 48 Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 it can be anywhere so long as it is in England and Wales. A notice served at the address given will be duly served. So am I right in thinking that the address on the tenancy agreement should be the landlords residence or place of business and should not be the letting agents address. Does this render the rent not payable if it is the agents address? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 a box of maggots on ice under the floor boards on day of departure will be a nice parting gift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zebbedee Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 a box of maggots on ice under the floor boards on day of departure will be a nice parting gift. Fish sewn into the lining of the settee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim123 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Tenants rights need a serious review in the Uk. trouble is most MP's are BTL landlords purchased from expenses! I think you're making a conspiracy where there isn't one. The reason that it wont happen is because the Tory party genuinely believe that a market (in this case, residential lettings) should be left to find its own norms without political tinkering and their particular political dogma does not lead them to introduce rules to protect the "little people" from those norms (unless there are lots of votes in it, which there isn't) tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) So am I right in thinking that the address on the tenancy agreement should be the landlords residence or place of business and should not be the letting agents address. Does this render the rent not payable if it is the agents address? No. The landlord can put any address in the tenancy agreement or no address at all; indeed there does not have to be a written agreement. However, section 48 LTA 1987 provides that if the landlord does not give an address in England and Wales at which notices may be served, no rent is due until service of the notice. Note that the requirement to pay rent is only suspended; once the notice is given all rent unpaid becomes due. The fact it is not due does not mean that the landlord is doing anything wrong if he demands it and if the tenant pays it it is not refundable. The purpose of the provision is to give the tenant a lever to force the landlord to supply an address in England and Wales for service of notices. The address can be any address in England and Wales (including 10 Downing Street!) and the landlord cannot claim that an otherwise valid notice is invalid if served at the address given in the notice (or of course any notice replacing it). The provisions of sections 1 LTA 1985 and 47 LTA 1987 are quite distinct from the above and from each other. Edited May 30, 2012 by Damocles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmer Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Fish sewn into the lining of the settee Prawns in the curtain poles Grass seed sprinkled into the carpets powdered milk flung anywhere unseen where moisture occurs etc etc don't get mad get even! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Just a thought, and not based on any knowledge or research; but how would Lovepigeon and her family stand in going to the local authority as having been made homeless through no fault of their own, and, as they have a baby they should be housed by the local authority. I believe that if you voluntarily leave the property, ie you do the 'right thing' and leave the place, then you are counted as having made yourself voluntarily homeless. Whereas if you wait to be evicted, then that does count as being made homeless through no fault of your own. I could be wrong. IANAL. Edited May 31, 2012 by EUBanana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim123 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) I believe that if you voluntarily leave the property, ie you do the 'right thing' and leave the place, then you are counted as having made yourself voluntarily homeless. Whereas if you wait to be evicted, then that does count as being made homeless through no fault of your own. I could be wrong. IANAL. You are correct. If you leave on the S21 notice the LA will not see a need to re-house you. You have to wait for the LL to win an eviction order in court. I don't believe that you actually have to wait until the bailiffs are at the door (BICBW) tim Edited May 31, 2012 by tim123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepigeon Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 Update: We found somewhere to move to - not ideal location but new landlord seems much nicer and more trustworthy and after being messed around this is important to us. We organised to move out at the end of the two months as required legally. Last week I have had the EA from the place we are moving out from ringing to ask when we will be moving out, I reply we are moving out at the end of the two months. She says the landlord wants us to move out earlier than this (preferably a week or two earlier) as she is starting a new job contract. EA has since rung me back about 4 or 5 times saying that she has had the mother of the landlord screaming down the phone to her that we must be out earlier etc. and basically putting pressure on us to move out earlier. Now me and my husband don't see why we should be doing the LL any favours after the way they have treated us - for example if they had given us an extra month or two notice we would have been more likely to find a suitable property in the area we wanted. I am shocked that the mother of the landlord is being so aggressive on the issue as we are not doing anything wrong. EA rings again and says LL's mother has been threatening to ring me or come over to the property but EA has been trying to discourage her for my sake since she has been so aggressive towards the EA. I must say the EA has been nice to me throughout this and it is clear that she is being harassed by this woman. Since she is so insistent that we must be out earlier I propose a solution - we could move out a week earlier provided they guarantee to give us our full deposit back since I won't have time to do the few touch ups I was planning (paint over a few areas and a bit of weeding, nothing major). You would think LL's mother would jump at this opportunity and be happy that we have found a solution but no. She then starts threatening even more that she will come over to see what state the property is in. I then have a lady from the company who did the inventory and who will be checking the property when we move out ringing me to warn me about the woman turning up saying I should not open the door to her as she has no right to enter. So far I have heard nothing more but I am demanding we get a signed agreement of full deposit back if we are to move out early as I do not trust these people. I managed to find out a bit more about the LL from the EA. She is a junior doctor who was at medical school here and was not expecting to return but now has a contract starting here. I'm guessing the parents bought the house for their daughter so she would not have to pay rent whilst she was a student and they seem to have a very entitled attitude. I'm also shocked that the LL is letting or asking her mother to do this - I would be ashamed if I were here! Why couldn't she have asked us directly in a nice way and maybe offered some incentive to us to move earlier rather than straight away resorting to mother shouting at EA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascii Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Have a look here: http://www.sheltercymru.org.uk/images/pdf/Harassment_Illegal_Eviction.pdf Appears to be the Welsh site but still applies here. The harassment part is probably going to apply. The law has sharp teeth here on your side, and I believe you already have a case though I think it's likely to be fairly small fry at the minute. The EA has no right to ring you 4 or 5 times, you've agreed to be out when they asked and that's the end of the matter. I would withdraw the offer regarding the deposit though, your position is much stronger than that. If you want to use leverage and you have the option of moving in earlier, try for refund of deposit and month or two free. Or sit back and wait for the threatened fireworks and sue after the fact. Log everything. Personally I would dig my heels in - I extended my stay by three month while I renovated an auction property, and then had the s21 eviction process overturned in court on a technicality. They then paid me to leave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadget Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Glad you've found a new place. But i'm with the others here: I don't know why you're giving in to the landlord so much. Move out when the notice says you should, not when the landlord wants you to, don't worry about the deposit being stolen, you've got the TDS as back-up these days. And if the "scary" landlords mum comes round slam the door in her face and threaten to sue her for harassment. There's being reasonable and then there's letting them walk over you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porca misèria Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 If moving out earlier would work for you, ask them how much they'll pay you to be out early. Or get the agent to do it for you, since you seem to find the agent more reasonable than the LL. You don't owe anyone a favour, but a decent incentive - maybe £1000 per week early - could persuade many of us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zebbedee Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Fook her, you have somewhere to move to so just to make her sweat it a bit, stay resident after the notice expiry, just for a couple of days-enough to have them round attempting to unlawfully evict you get her arrested and sue for damages. Then move on to your new place in the knowledge that another bully is being butt fvcked by the rules she though were only on her side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim123 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Glad you've found a new place. But i'm with the others here: I don't know why you're giving in to the landlord so much. Move out when the notice says you should, not when the landlord wants you to, don't worry about the deposit being stolen, you've got the TDS as back-up these days. And if the "scary" landlords mum comes round slam the door in her face and threaten to sue her for harassment. harassment is a criminal offence not a civil claim for compo tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViciousChicken Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Poor lovepigeon you've had such a nightmare! But the law is on your side, so don't move out any earlier than you have to unless LL makes it worth your while. Assuming your deposit is protected, I'd want more than guaranteed return of it. Having been through the dispute process and been successful, I'd say it's pretty tenant friendly anyway. So you can do better than that. Get all communication in writing if you can as well- email will do. It'll be useful for a tenancy deposit dispute if nothing else. LL's mother screaming at the EA is not your problem. If LL or any family members turn up without giving the requisite notice, you don't need to let them in and if they kick off in any way, ring the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btl_hater Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Fook her, you have somewhere to move to so just to make her sweat it a bit, stay resident after the notice expiry, just for a couple of days-enough to have them round attempting to unlawfully evict you get her arrested and sue for damages. Then move on to your new place in the knowledge that another bully is being butt fvcked by the rules she though were only on her side. +1 Please do not pander to this woman and her "mother". Her mother FFS, what is she going to do!? If she turns up make sure to wind her up even more, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cartimandua51 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Update: (snip) I managed to find out a bit more about the LL from the EA. She is a junior doctor who was at medical school here and was not expecting to return but now has a contract starting here. I'm guessing the parents bought the house for their daughter so she would not have to pay rent whilst she was a student and they seem to have a very entitled attitude. I'm also shocked that the LL is letting or asking her mother to do this - I would be ashamed if I were here! Why couldn't she have asked us directly in a nice way and maybe offered some incentive to us to move earlier rather than straight away resorting to mother shouting at EA? Hmm. Junior doctor with bossy, protective, aggressive entitled mother.... Don't want to be too racist or judgemental, but if they are from outside the EU, tread carefully. There are strong laws protecting tenants against harrassment, but I suspect the race card would trump the tenancy card if played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjw Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Very similar to a whinge I was having three weeks ago. 6 month AST, came up for renewal, we asked for another 6-12 month AST. Before we'd even got a response we saw the house up for sale on Rightmove. Unsurprisingly we are now on a rolling contract. We've also got very young children meaning looking for places is far more disruptive, let alone the actual move/unpack/settle in. As with Montesquieu we live in a semi-rural location, nothing similar available locally, so a move would mean looking for a new nursery etc (and the issues with waiting lists for places...). We've owned before but neither of us particularly want to buy now as we see prices falling in the short/medium term. However at this point it's more likely we'll buy than rent - mainly to avoid being kicked out again and because there simply aren't the rentals available I'd move as soon as possible if I were you - because the house sale may take years - and you should move quickly to punish your landlord with a void. Don't just sit there paying his mortgage while he tries to sell the house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViciousChicken Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hmm. Junior doctor with bossy, protective, aggressive entitled mother.... Don't want to be too racist or judgemental, but if they are from outside the EU, tread carefully. There are strong laws protecting tenants against harrassment, but I suspect the race card would trump the tenancy card if played. Erm, no. OP should of course avoid doing or saying anything racist, but that's just good advice to anyone in any situation really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastlaugh Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hmm. Junior doctor with bossy, protective, aggressive entitled mother.... Don't want to be too racist or judgemental, but if they are from outside the EU, tread carefully. There are strong laws protecting tenants against harrassment, but I suspect the race card would trump the tenancy card if played. That is the most stupid thing I've ever read on this forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascii Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'm sure I've seen others that are equally bad and probably worse, but it's about as fatuous as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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