Timak Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 And what would they be able to do with that great idea? They wouldn't be able to start a internationally competitive business with a 20hr working week cap. None of the companies, products or ideas you enjoy today would have happened under this system. None. Let me guess, public sector worker? Nope self-employed since my mid-20's but realise there is far more to life than working for 5/7ths of the best years of your life. It depresses me that people are so blinkered that the current way is the only way of running things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammo Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 If it's one less day a week (not 2, that's too extreme), and it's normalised throughout the first world, then I reckon I could be brought around to the idea. As long as salary was unaffected, and companies did not use this change to waive any annual salary increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Or IT. Two people working four hours a day developing software would probably not be much more productive than one person working four hours a day when they'd have to spend much of their time figuring out what others had been doing in the four hours they weren't there. Any job based on skill rather than interchangeable work-drones would probably be screwed by shorter hours. Nonsense. If someone (even a supposedly highly skilled person) currently works in a team then already the project is already being subdivided into smaller tasks. Very, very few jobs would have any real difficulty in being done by a team each working 20 hours as opposed to a team each working 40 hours. Edited January 15, 2012 by the gardener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiges Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 far more to life than working for 5/7ths Admittedly it includes sleeping but taking holidays into consideration etc. you're at work about 20% of your adult life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Admittedly it includes sleeping but taking holidays into consideration etc. you're at work about 20% of your adult life. Taking out 8 hours sleep per day and including lunchtimes and about 1 hour commuting per day then about 40% of your waking hours are spent on work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulfar Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I have got too say people are so pre-conditioned to the current system I am really surprised. There are so many advantages to having all of the population employed but for less hours than having permanent unemployment for a large part of the population. If society tries to carry on as it is there will be a breaking point. Given the policies of government to vilify those out of work and then to take punitive measures the tipping point will come sooner rather than later. You can't take a increasing number of people condemn them to poverty and exclude them from society without there being a massive backlash at some point, the London riots are just a foretaste. Look at the Arab nations, people do reach a stage where violence or death will not stop them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I have never felt that type of work ethos, though I know it goes on. Personally I'd find it difficult to work like that, constantly clock watching, feeling like I need not be sat there. I much prefer to be busy for the full 37.5 hours, and indeed I am - and thankfully so. ... Slackers deserve to lose half their hours - that's what I'm saying in a roundabout way. I do not. I wouldn't describe it as clock watching, just doing what is required until it's done rather than sitting there keeping busy for a set period of time. If a company employs me to make widgets, why not pay me per widget produced? They've done the maths anyway, they'll work out how long it typically takes to make a widget and come up with an hourly rate they are prepared to pay. They get an order for 100 widgets, so Im sat there making them. Pay me per widget, I'll make them and go home when Im done. They spend what they expect to for 100 widgets, and Im motivated to get the job done. Pay me per hour and I'm motivated to make widgets at a slow pace, and the cost to the employer per widget is unpredictable. If I make them all by the end of thursday and there's no more to make Im coming in on friday to sit there and stare into space. This does happen, there's no workplace in the world where everyone is busy due to having work to do all the time, it just doesn't work like that. The self employed van men work in a much more sensible way. Want a job done? That's the price. They don't get more if they spend longer cleaning your windows, you agree a price, if the windows are clean at the end, there's the money. Pay for the useful work, not the time spent. It seems ridiculous we aren't all doing that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmpiricalBear Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 This can't and won't work except as a natural by product of long term and organic changes. No government could engineer this without creating an economic disaster. People are not replaceable units. For this reason Julie's 20 hours may be worth 55 of Jim's. We know plenty of Jims and oh too few Julies. For this reason Julie will always be busier than Jim, no matter what mad Stalinist plan some think tank comes up with. And not to allow Julie to work as long as she or her employer wishes her to would mean the vision of our economy would be more like North than South Korea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
right_freds_dead Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 wrong thread. i though it said '*****ing' limited to 20 hrs per week. phew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have got too say people are so pre-conditioned to the current system I am really surprised. There are so many advantages to having all of the population employed but for less hours than having permanent unemployment for a large part of the population. If society tries to carry on as it is there will be a breaking point. Given the policies of government to vilify those out of work and then to take punitive measures the tipping point will come sooner rather than later. You can't take a increasing number of people condemn them to poverty and exclude them from society without there being a massive backlash at some point, the London riots are just a foretaste. Look at the Arab nations, people do reach a stage where violence or death will not stop them. You have a lot of wisdom. The failure of those arab leaders to provide jobs or opportunity for the new generation ultimately led to the downfall of their regimes. In the 1930's a similiar thing happened in most western nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I wouldn't describe it as clock watching, just doing what is required until it's done rather than sitting there keeping busy for a set period of time. If a company employs me to make widgets, why not pay me per widget produced? They've done the maths anyway, they'll work out how long it typically takes to make a widget and come up with an hourly rate they are prepared to pay. They get an order for 100 widgets, so Im sat there making them. Pay me per widget, I'll make them and go home when Im done. They spend what they expect to for 100 widgets, and Im motivated to get the job done. Pay me per hour and I'm motivated to make widgets at a slow pace, and the cost to the employer per widget is unpredictable. If I make them all by the end of thursday and there's no more to make Im coming in on friday to sit there and stare into space. This does happen, there's no workplace in the world where everyone is busy due to having work to do all the time, it just doesn't work like that. The self employed van men work in a much more sensible way. Want a job done? That's the price. They don't get more if they spend longer cleaning your windows, you agree a price, if the windows are clean at the end, there's the money. Pay for the useful work, not the time spent. It seems ridiculous we aren't all doing that now. Sadly one of the laws in virtually all western nations is you are not allowed to pay manufacturing workers by piecemeal. There is a couple factories in the USA that are still piecemeal, they were grandfathered through way back in the 1930's when the new laws came into place. They are phenomenally productive and profitable.. and the workers make a multiple of the median income. Interestingly China is almost all piecemeal factories. Which is one reason they are crushing western based manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 This can't and won't work except as a natural by product of long term and organic changes. No government could engineer this without creating an economic disaster. People are not replaceable units. For this reason Julie's 20 hours may be worth 55 of Jim's. We know plenty of Jims and oh too few Julies. For this reason Julie will always be busier than Jim, no matter what mad Stalinist plan some think tank comes up with. And not to allow Julie to work as long as she or her employer wishes her to would mean the vision of our economy would be more like North than South Korea. That is a big reason I am a supporter of a citizen's dividend, instead of limiting the working week. Limiting the working week may work in France where everything is big quasi-state corporations. But in Britain I do not see it working with our culture. For one, what if you love your job. Its rare but there are people like dentists who love doing dental work. To say they are not allowed to work more than 20 hours a week seems morally wrong. Then there is the enforcement aspect. How do you have watchers everywhere checking to see if people like contractors are only putting in 20 hours a week. Again with big corporations only this can work, but not with independent contractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Food for thought.. what about extending maternity leave? France and Sweden have 2 years maternity leave for women. I have heard a proposal for 2 years for women AND 1 year for the father. Now talk about a pro-natal policy! I think with national level insurance this could be given to all including contractors. Are we so short of workers, that we desperately need women to return to work, while a little baby is still at home? There is something wrong with our priorities when we believe a woman's value is more important being a cashier at Tescos than being with her baby. (especially in light of the new automated teller machines that are rapidly replacing cashiers). Edited January 16, 2012 by aa3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 4. If you work 4 hours a day, then you spend a disproportionate time commuting, or if you work fewer days then there's the age old problem of trying to get stuff done when people are on a "day off". I work 3 days a week and your point is a problem at times for my company. I generally have to be available at some point on my days off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Food for thought.. what about extending maternity leave? France and Sweden have 2 years maternity leave for women. It is 16 weeks in France for the first child rising to 26 weeks for the third child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) I'd say she values herself, and her skills. This is absolutely symbolic of the arrogance of employers at the moment Would you work for free? No, she was working, shelf filling for another pathetic excuse of a retailer so far up its own ****, it's shocking I would say she expects hardworking people to pay her money so she finds her 'ideal role'. She doesn't have to stack shelves for free just stop taking the money that has that as a condition. She has that choice but like many graduates (who haven't contributed through NI) into the system she wants to take money out before she pays any in as well having a massively subsisdised education. I am glad you can afford that generous stance unfortunately the country can not Edited January 16, 2012 by Greg Bowman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Sadly one of the laws in virtually all western nations is you are not allowed to pay manufacturing workers by piecemeal. There is a couple factories in the USA that are still piecemeal, they were grandfathered through way back in the 1930's when the new laws came into place. They are phenomenally productive and profitable.. and the workers make a multiple of the median income. Interestingly China is almost all piecemeal factories. Which is one reason they are crushing western based manufacturers. Spot on my old man worked for Belling and then Lucas as a semi skiilled manual production worker through the fifties and right through to retirement in early 90's. He said in the sixties he could earn twice what a headmaster was earning then. Fettering a man and his team so they cannot exploit their stamina and skills is like telling a barrister she can only work 4 hours a day. Interestingly those heroes of the working class the unions embraced the abolition of piecemeal bonuses to protect the slackers. Edited January 16, 2012 by Greg Bowman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffneck Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 wouldnt have a problem with it so long as cost of living was also cut in half....not going to happen of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 This might help. Wow only two pages in and someone actually decided to post that cr4p again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 An ideal that would be impossible to put into place in reality. Even without the cost of living issues that have been brought up there will still be plenty of people who will want to monopolise the available work to maximise their own income. There's nothing that can be done about that without too intrusive regulation. Another case of people doing things that are fine for the individual but have an overall negative impact on society, and those are always difficult to resolve without being obnoxiously authoritarian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I agree with aa3 on the citizens income. Dont limit hours give people the option to limit them out of choice. A LOT of people would do it voluntarily and this would open up work for others who wanted more. On the note of piecemeal work i can say some of my favorite and most productive work has been on such terms. It really does keep you going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 We either have to accept that within 20 years the majority of the adult working age population will be unemployed and receiving some form of government assistance to survive. Or make reforms to our system to take advantage of this wonderous advance in productivity. You and I both know our society will opt for the former. Unpaid over time costs 1 million jobs Let the slaves babies have their bottles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I would say she expects hardworking people to pay her money so she finds her 'ideal role'. She doesn't have to stack shelves for free just stop taking the money that has that as a condition. She has that choice but like many graduates (who haven't contributed through NI) into the system she wants to take money out before she pays any in as well having a massively subsisdised education. I am glad you can afford that generous stance unfortunately the country can not Why should Poundsaver get free staff, massively subsidised by the state? I thought you believed in the free market? How are Poundsavers independent competitors supposed to compete when their taxes are being used to subsidise the competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsm Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 What about those that either: Wish to work full time, or Are 'irreplaceable' eg top brains etc. Who decides who is allowed a dispensation from the rules and who is not? What about the self employed? Would they be forced to take on staff if they were working above the limit? There are so many practical problems with this that we need not go so far as the ideological arguments. So, if those who love nothing more than grinding out 50 hour weeks and have a job that allows that , then no problem. The rest of the people, who may have a life outside of work, can easily find enough to do after they have worked 20 hours per week. Great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 wouldnt have a problem with it so long as cost of living was also cut in half....not going to happen of course A better argument. I agree any realignment would be subject to initial drag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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