Is University Worth The Money?

[Si1]

An insightful point: future taxation based on parental income 30 years ago.

Very odd when you think about it.

not particularly, in the UK individuals' prospects are massively shaped by their parentage and not by themselves, makes progressive sense to equalise it - tho it is a bit brazen

this will of course inject fear into the hearts of champagne socialists everywhere (especially those from the home counties who now have cushdie management jobs in northern councils and NHS trusts) who thought that they'd gamed the system to perfection, keeping the poor poor, only for the lib dems to come along and actually try something progressive - damn those liberals!

[PopGun]

Clearly not an American

[PopGun]

Average graduate starting salary is £30k?!?

Edited August 18, 2011 by PopGun

[worried1]

University could be worth the money for those getting into £42k starting salary roles in investment banks. The problem is how many of these roles are there? It is all very well saying that the average pay for those going to work in graduate jobs is £29k, but this was already a small proportion of the total graduates and has only got smaller as more and more have been encouraged into university.

My peer group left university ten years ago. Most seemed to start in non-grad jobs around £15-£18k and have now worked their way up to the £50-£70k salary range. A few have done much better than this and a couple aren't doing anything with their degrees at all.

I assume this is fairly typical. The problem for today's graduates is that these non-grad jobs still have salaries of £15-£18k and are much harder to come by. The cost of living has rocketed in the last 10 years, and so have debts because of tuition fees.

The problem is what chance have non-grads got of getting these non-grad jobs when there are so many unemployed grads around?

[Redcellar]

I've noticed a lot of reverse snobbery today. Degrees bad, life experience good.

What I would say is that you can have both! Do a degree and a sandwich year to get experience. Best of both worlds.

Also lots on Radio5 about

"Degrees .. I earn X and have a house I didn't have a degree. I'm doing better than people with a degree".

And "I'm on the board of a major company and I don't have a degree".

Well good for you, but you are becoming a minority. The last firm I worked for wouldn't employ people above a very low management level without a degree. Didn't even get past the HR vetting. That was a top 50 global company by the way. In fact I've seen Masters become the norm particularly in Engineering degrees.

Do both if you can, get a degree and get experience whilst at Uni. Dead simple.

Is it worth the money. Well it's a necessity if you want to be in a really progressive career, so you have to pay whatever they ask. If you want mundane then skip the degree. Horses for courses.

[worried1]

Average graduate starting salary is £30k?!?

Only for those that start in graduate roles with the top 100 employers. In reality, I reckon it works more like this:

Say there are 500,000 graduates each year:

10,000 would get these top jobs with an average salary of £30k

50,000 would get lower level grad jobs averaging, say, £20k

250,000 would get non-grad jobs averaging,say, £17k

100,000 would end up in temp/min wage type employment. £12k

90,000 unemployed. £0

That would make a more realistic average of £13.5k for all graduates, and £16.5k for those in employment.

Obviously these are made up figures, but I'd bet they are a lot closer to the truth than £30k!

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Careful, this could turn into a Goatboy thread (naughty words)

...AAA! Goatboy !

Edited August 18, 2011 by Saving For a Space Ship

[worried1]

I've noticed a lot of reverse snobbery today. Degrees bad, life experience good.

What I would say is that you can have both! Do a degree and a sandwich year to get experience. Best of both worlds.

Also lots on Radio5 about

"Degrees .. I earn X and have a house I didn't have a degree. I'm doing better than people with a degree".

And "I'm on the board of a major company and I don't have a degree".

Well good for you, but you are becoming a minority. The last firm I worked for wouldn't employ people above a very low management level without a degree. Didn't even get past the HR vetting. That was a top 50 global company by the way. In fact I've seen Masters become the norm particularly in Engineering degrees.

Do both if you can, get a degree and get experience whilst at Uni. Dead simple.

Is it worth the money. Well it's a necessity if you want to be in a really progressive career, so you have to pay whatever they ask. If you want mundane then skip the degree. Horses for courses.

I agree with this, but I think the increasingly sensible way is to spend less time on the education and more on the practical experience. BBC breakfast interviewed a school leaver this morning who had taken a trainee position with Logica - 4 days in the office and 1 day studying.

Seems sensible to me - she will end up with 4 years demonstrable experience with a good employer and no debt by the age of 21/22 and she will be a lot more employable than someone who just come out of a full time degree/sandwich course.

Granted, she won't have the fun of three years at university, but she will be a lot better set up for the rest of her life than most graduates.

[Redcellar]

I agree with this, but I think the increasingly sensible way is to spend less time on the education and more on the practical experience. BBC breakfast interviewed a school leaver this morning who had taken a trainee position with Logica - 4 days in the office and 1 day studying.

Seems sensible to me - she will end up with 4 years demonstrable experience with a good employer and no debt by the age of 21/22 and she will be a lot more employable than someone who just come out of a full time degree/sandwich course.

Granted, she won't have the fun of three years at university, but she will be a lot better set up for the rest of her life than most graduates.

Bring back polys?

One thing education does that on the job experience never can, is give you more experience quickly and in a focused manner. Give me one hour with books or the Internet and one hour on the job and I will learn more from the books than on the job. That's because the work experience is limited to the daily routine and the common tasks with the odd new bit thrown in.

Education allows us to progress in leaps and bounds and for that it needs to be encouraged.

I agree a mix of education and practical hands on is a good thing. But initially a big burst of learning is needed to get up to speed, and that's what I found Uni did for me in Engineering. The hands on stuff was then easy because I understood the fundamentals and could apply what I knew to understand why it actually worked in the field.

[winkie]

Watching the news this morning blew my mind, putting off gap years yada yada yada, what over privileged bullplop!

What is a gap year?.......University is only worth the money if you are studying a degree that will pay the money of the future, otherwise find the right employer that looks past a alphabetical grade on a piece of paper and prove to them what you are capable of doing with the natural skills and attitudes that you have to learn a trade that there is and will be a demand for.....not going to university gives you a head start in life, that you can trade off latter in life......there will not be enough work for doctors, accountants and lawyers for all those that are studying to be one....the new jobs will be in different areas imo.

Edited August 18, 2011 by winkie

[guitarman001]

I went to Edinburgh uni and my fees were paid. In fact the only loans I took were £3k a year to live on. So my total debt was approx £15k for a 5 year engineering course.

I'd say in all it was worth it, though the course could have been a bit shorter.

Looking at the students on BBC news today who seemed so eager to go to uni, I thought they just seemed a bit dim and brainwashed. Even I balked at the idea of the £15k debt (which I'm still paying off)... but £50k+!? And considering I complain about my salary, I almost definitely wouldn't go to uni now (if I were English or Welsh). Total rip-off.

In fact I think the whole fees issue is scandalous - I'm sure cutting some salaries and axing some quangos would help things.

[Guest tbatst2000]

No true. I got into Oz as a qualified tradesman on the "skills list". I couldn't believe how easy it was.

You'll note I said 'generally' rather than 'always'.

[guitarman001]

Average starting salary of £30k? I don't think so.... I'd say between £23k-28k on average across professions. I'm still only on £30k after 4+ years (started on £27k!).

Or even better than that just do what one of my neighbours has done all of her career and lie about your qualifications - she left school with a couple of CSEs and is in a "graduate only" job paying £70K a year. When she has changed employer in the past only two of them have ever asked for proof of her qualifications. In both cases she spun them a sob story about a messy break-up of a bad marriage and having to leave all her paperwork behind and being too frightened of her ex to approach him to get it back (all untrue). In both cases the employer didn't persue the matter further.

I'm not condoning this behaviour but she's only following the moral lead of all our glorious politicians......and it shows what a croc of **** the requirement for a degree is for many jobs.

Seriously!?

[Timak]

Average starting salary of £30k? I don't think so.... I'd say between £23k-28k on average across professions. I'm still only on £30k after 4+ years (started on £27k!).

The problem with stats like the average graduate starting salary is that they survey a few large accountancy firms,city lawyers and corporations in London and extrapolate from that.

Lots of students from my wife's work are Cambridge graduates. After a few years in science they realise how bad the pay is and leave to join the corporate world. Most get onto good schemes but few start on anything more than the low 20ks. One started with Deloitte last year - you train for a 2 year period on £24-27k - then "start" on £31k. I bet they report the starting salary as £31k. Others are on the Civil Service Faststream earning £24k or with corporates like Mars or ARM on £23k starting.

[Goat]

graduates earn at least £120,000 - before tax - more than non-graduates during the course of their working lives.

So £120,000 extra, £60,000 goes in tax which leaves £60,000 - about the cost of the course.

So effectively you pay all of the cost and the government receives all of the benefit.

That sounds fair.

Also, remember that the costs are paid early in your carreer but the benefits will be received late on - apply a discount rate to the cash flows and the results are likely to be even less favourable.

[PopGun]

Only for those that start in graduate roles with the top 100 employers. In reality, I reckon it works more like this:

Say there are 500,000 graduates each year:

10,000 would get these top jobs with an average salary of £30k

50,000 would get lower level grad jobs averaging, say, £20k

250,000 would get non-grad jobs averaging,say, £17k

100,000 would end up in temp/min wage type employment. £12k

90,000 unemployed. £0

That would make a more realistic average of £13.5k for all graduates, and £16.5k for those in employment.

Obviously these are made up figures, but I'd bet they are a lot closer to the truth than £30k!

A made up but seemingly logical analysis. Plus as Timak says, surveys tend to be selective at best.

Just had a look at My linkhttp://www.graduatesyorkshire.co.uk.

Most salaries start at £20k or lower. Quite a few temp ones at around the £15k mark.

[Redcellar]

So £120,000 extra, £60,000 goes in tax which leaves £60,000 - about the cost of the course.

So effectively you pay all of the cost and the government receives all of the benefit.

That sounds fair.

Also, remember that the costs are paid early in your carreer but the benefits will be received late on - apply a discount rate to the cash flows and the results are likely to be even less favourable.

This is what I argued weeks ago. People told me the £120 took into account the fees so this was pure profit. And they also never said it was before tax.

I, like you, think a whole generation will be lucky to break even. It's crazy short sighted behaviour, but the populus say it's what they want, all students are scroungers, they should pay their own way, I pay taxes and don't get any benefit from it myself blah blah blah blah blah.

Education is the foundation of a strong economy and a strong community. When you cut education you are killing your future.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Redcellar

[ader]

University is worth it if:

a) you are a bit dim

and

go to work in the public sector

(or if you do law or medicine).

[PopGun]

University is worth it if:

a) you are a bit dim

and

go to work in the public sector

(or if you do law or medicine).

I work in public sector, no degree required.

Other half's job in private sector, degree is mandatory. (not law or Medicine or Finance).

How strange.

[ccc]

Just for context - my brother is just off now to study in the US. Not one of the top Uni's but seems decent enough anyway. Doing a 'soccer' scholarship so what would cost - per year - about $28k in costs and fees: Now costing about $14k due to scholarship. At todays exchange rate about £9k in total. This includes accomodation as well. Probably works out cheaper in general than doing one in the UK*.

I think one great benefit of this is simply having this on your CV. When going for a job you will instantly seem far more interesting. This will go a long way in getting you an interview which all helps in actually getting a job.

Whether the cost is worth it or not is another matter. However just wanting to show a comparison - to getting a degree in the US - that for most people is thought of as so much more expensive than here. In reality if you are not going to a top US College then it doesn't seem more expensive at all. If I was a youngster I would give it a go.

3 years in Maine or 3 years in Nottingham. Not much competition IMO.

*Taking out of the equation the Scottish fee free situation.

[OnionTerror]

Just for context - my brother is just off now to study in the US. Not one of the top Uni's but seems decent enough anyway. Doing a 'soccer' scholarship so what would cost - per year - about $28k in costs and fees: Now costing about $14k due to scholarship. At todays exchange rate about £9k in total. This includes accomodation as well. Probably works out cheaper in general than doing one in the UK*.

I think one great benefit of this is simply having this on your CV. When going for a job you will instantly seem far more interesting. This will go a long way in getting you an interview which all helps in actually getting a job.

Whether the cost is worth it or not is another matter. However just wanting to show a comparison - to getting a degree in the US - that for most people is thought of as so much more expensive than here. In reality if you are not going to a top US College then it doesn't seem more expensive at all. If I was a youngster I would give it a go.

3 years in Maine or 3 years in Nottingham. Not much competition IMO.

*Taking out of the equation the Scottish fee free situation.

...athough you can't "legally" drink...what else would you do with your days..

[PopGun]

...athough you can't "legally" drink...what else would you do with your days..

Chase cheerleaders and try to fit in with the jocks I presume.

[hellsbells]

View Posthellsbells, on 18 August 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

"Or even better than that just do what one of my neighbours has done all of her career and lie about your qualifications - she left school with a couple of CSEs and is in a "graduate only" job paying £70K a year. When she has changed employer in the past only two of them have ever asked for proof of her qualifications. In both cases she spun them a sob story about a messy break-up of a bad marriage and having to leave all her paperwork behind and being too frightened of her ex to approach him to get it back (all untrue). In both cases the employer didn't persue the matter further.

I'm not condoning this behaviour but she's only following the moral lead of all our glorious politicians......and it shows what a croc of **** the requirement for a degree is for many jobs."

Seriously!?

Completely. Loves to push her annual statement of tax and pension benefits in my face to show me how well she's doing.

I would also agree with most of the comments about the true state of graduate pay - with a BSc and MSc my pay peaked at about £38K at one point but only due to exceptional travel allowances at the time, my notional salary topped out at £30K when I resigned a couple of years back to trying retraining and working for myself. Getting back into a decent job now seems impossible especially given my age and sprog committments. So I swell the ranks of the economically inactive.

Edited August 19, 2011 by hellsbells

[ccc]

...athough you can't "legally" drink...what else would you do with your days..

I dont think they have much trouble finding bevvy

He is lucky though. His campus is right on the border with Canada - where the drinking age is 18. I imagine a lot of weekend trips will be in order.

[dinker]

HESA has some good statistics on the employability of the various courses and universities, as summarised here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8709228/Universities-with-the-best-and-worst-employment-rates.html

I would say the University of Buckingham offers the best deal and the ghetto "Universities" the worst.