Offshoring It Will Double In Five Years But What About It Graduate Unemployment?

[OnlyMe]

http://sify.com/finance/firstsource-barclaycard-sign-five-year-outsourcing-agreement-news-banking-kkbblohdehe.html

Firstsource, Barclaycard sign five-year outsourcing agreement

BS Reporter | 2010-10-01 01:11:00

Firstsource Solutions, a Mumbai-based business process outsourcing (BPO) provider, on Thursday announced a five-year outsourcing partnership with Barclaycard, the UK-based credit card and consumer lending business of Barclays PLC.

The five-year customer service contract would involve Firstsource managing Barclaycard’s credit card and payment businesses beginning November 1, the company said in a statement. Firstsource will manage the majority of the services currently provided by the Teesside centre, as well as a related payment servicing team located in Wavertree, Merseyside.

Derek Allgood, global sales and service director, Barclaycard, said, "Firstsource have given us a commitment to establish a long-term presence here in Teesside and, with their global footprint, they are also well placed to meet the current and future needs of our growing international customer base."

[crash2006]

This is why I think all this high-end lawyer / super earner stuff is a distraction.

The jobs which they will pick up next will be the barely white collar process jobs in finance/payroll/ etc... which pay in this country a multiple of what they can earn in China.

So they will get offshored, until wages / living standards are comparable.

But there are plenty of other places in the world that could take up the work, you'll looking at a good few decades, the gov/council start to ofshore jobs you know thiscountry is finish, tax payers funding other nations.

[efdemin]

Yes. Software development is a creative activity, it is not the same as factory floor manufacturing work. Their workers time is cheap, but their culture prevents them from being any good at some activities. This can change, but it will take a long time.

Part of software engineering is a creative activity. Too many western engineers pay lip service to testing and quality assurance - 'oh, that's the test team's work', 'oh, I'm too valuable to fix defects'.

The one thing I've noticed working with Japanese software engineers is that they are very, very disciplined and rarely slip targets. Ever wonder why a Nintendo Wii or DS or a Sony PlayStation 'just works'? (Compare them to the XBox which had all sorts of problems with hardware overheating and failing in the early years.) It's because of their better commitment to the end-user quality and reliability. A bit like their cars. So in some ways, making software is a manufacturing process, it's just that many programmers would like to place themselves above those kinds of jobs. Not that there's anything wrong with manufacturing, but it definitely is looked down on in western countries as blue collar but in Japan it's all the same.

I've only worked with Japanese engineers though, I would guess Korea is similar. I know India is very different, not sure about China yet.

[Lone_Twin]

But there are plenty of other places in the world that could take up the work, you'll looking at a good few decades, the gov/council start to ofshore jobs you know thiscountry is finish, tax payers funding other nations.

In IT it will acelerate under the guise of SaaS.

All the Bussiness Process stuff will happen soon, all the talk in councils right now is of shared services like they just invented the idea. Imagine how excited they'll be when the realise they can put it offshore too.

We all know the money has run out, budgets will just get squeezed and squeezed until there is no choice.

[SHERWICK]

In IT it will acelerate under the guise of SaaS.

All the Bussiness Process stuff will happen soon, all the talk in councils right now is of shared services like they just invented the idea. Imagine how excited they'll be when the realise they can put it offshore too.

We all know the money has run out, budgets will just get squeezed and squeezed until there is no choice.

Not always the best thing for a council to do because, other than provide VFM for local residents, they are also an employer of choice for locals.

But you're right, it's coming.

[PopGun]

It would be ammusing if it was me.

Your not a 6ft ginger with massive hands are you?

Alas no. Massive feet, small hands.

[PopGun]

The article said 1 million but 4 is still nothing out of 1.3 Billion,.

It's not dragging everyone down in their point of view is it, just from ours

Commie? through and though

We aren't more deserving, we just think we are as a nation and the benefit system protects us from the reality of nature.

Deserving doesn't come into it, We were born lucky.

We manifest our expectations and aspirations according to our current environment. We may feel ‘entitled’ to a certain standard of living, because we see everyone else around us are living that standard.

The paradox is that the Chinese/Indian economic strategy of undercutting global labour to enforce their own development, relies on most of their populations living in poverty to ensure their labour surpluses. In other words, they rely on their people having low expectations of living standards. However if the country develops and living standards do rise, so will the people’s expectations in their basic standards of living, which will throw this model out of the window. It’s already starting in China.

I presume you’re like Lone Twin, and believe a global equilibrium/balance will be reached. I don’t, as imo it’s more likely that either we all fall down together or the Chindians will eat their own tails trying.

I still can't work out why either China or India didn't go for the long game, instead of joing the oil binge party just before it ended.

[PopGun]

Anyone with any real world experience says the same thing, they're shit.

Not if they kick out the intrinsic corruption that undermines everything they do. That will be never then.

[guitarman001]

Our society is incredibly selfish. Unemployment will hit 20% at some point, but because the other 80% all have jobs they won't care all that much or will just be apathetic towards to problem like people are now.

For anyone wanting a job in the UK take a look at where the money is-

http://www.careerbuilder.co.uk/Article/CB-234-Job-Search-10-top-paying-careers-in-Britain/

That's finance and marketing. The other jobs listed are very niche and you are unlikely to get into those fields, same goes for the medical field which is here is very competitive not to mention difficult.

So everyone behold- the path to wealth is by being able to manipulate capital flows either directly through financing or indirectly through encouraging people to buy stuff. Ofcourse doing your own business would be even better than either of those fiellds.

Not surprised police are in the list.

Not surprised that engineering isn't

[efdemin]

Not surprised police are in the list.

Not surprised that engineering isn't

It's not all police though is it? From the article it's "Police Officers (Inspectors and above)", so senior officers basically. I'd hope most senior engineers (as in senior leads, not just senior as in 'over 5 years experience') are on or around £50k+ as well. Of course you don't usually have a final salary pension like a policeman or the prospect of early retirement but that's another story...

[tomandlu]

The one thing I've noticed working with Japanese software engineers is that they are very, very disciplined and rarely slip targets. Ever wonder why a Nintendo Wii or DS or a Sony PlayStation 'just works'? (Compare them to the XBox which had all sorts of problems with hardware overheating and failing in the early years.)

I thought the general consensus with the XBox was that MS, being a software company, had an attitude of "oh, we can patch any problems" - an attitude which doesn't really transfer from software to hardware.

Speaking from my own perspective regarding IT graduates - I deal a lot with the NHS IT departments, and all I can say is that either UK graduates are shite, or the NHS isn't paying enough to get the good ones, or they're asking for too much money.

I've just been dealing with an NHS project manager who wouldn't send non-confidential documents by email because "it wasn't secure" and wouldn't use PGP because "it was too complicated". On top of which, he was generally not very good anyway - I don't thing the word 'specification' was in his dictionary...

Bottom line, good luck with outsourcing that sort of project abroad...

[Andy D]

There is a fair amount of work in IT at the moment, but you need to be good. There is nothing entry level, and you very rarely meet junior staff.

The people already established in IT are okay for now, but the industry has been starved of entry level staff and there is a risk the whole industry could collapse in this country.

Britain was once one of the very best countries for IT. We were far better than Germany or France, for instance. Now it has all been sold to India.

Been involved with IT that's been outsourced to India on and off for 18 years, and quite heavily involved at the moment.

My experience is that I'd never outsource stuff to India, while there are many good developers, that vast majority I come across aren't up to the job and I think it's a cultural thing - there's a culture of teaching rather than learning.

Most of the developers etc. I come across know what they've been taught but don't know the strengths or the weaknesses of what they know, or what alternative technologies/approaches have to offers but yet are supremely confident in their abilities.

It's a classic example the Dunning-Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) at work.

We're just about to bring some development back onshore, much to the angst of our offshore partners, who of course take it very personally.

Andy

[Johnny Storm]

We're just about to bring some development back onshore, much to the angst of our offshore partners, who of course take it very personally.

And so they should.

[madpenguin]

I thought the general consensus with the XBox was that MS, being a software company, had an attitude of "oh, we can patch any problems" - an attitude which doesn't really transfer from software to hardware.

Speaking from my own perspective regarding IT graduates - I deal a lot with the NHS IT departments, and all I can say is that either UK graduates are shite, or the NHS isn't paying enough to get the good ones, or they're asking for too much money.

I've just been dealing with an NHS project manager who wouldn't send non-confidential documents by email because "it wasn't secure" and wouldn't use PGP because "it was too complicated". On top of which, he was generally not very good anyway - I don't thing the word 'specification' was in his dictionary...

Bottom line, good luck with outsourcing that sort of project abroad...

I have worked with both Indian, English and US development teams (on the same project no less, shrink wrapped commercial software sold world wide ), the American attitude can best be summarised as Wild West "Hell let's just go into Visual Studio and start coding" (Spent a lot of time and nagging getting them to use the code repository properly), India was the exact opposite, needed everything documented, great reluctance to own up to any areas where they had a lack of knowledge, and wanted everything spelt out in writing, great reluctance to admit to work not being done or "slippage" in achieving goals, anything difficult they wanted "code samples".

Biggest problems with the UK I've seen have been with UK managers, usually very poorly trained, very little technical knowledge, overly cowed by senior management and too obsessed with status (I've known plenty who won't eat or go down the pub with the rest of the staff).

Edited October 1, 2010 by madpenguin

[guitarman001]

It's not all police though is it? From the article it's "Police Officers (Inspectors and above)", so senior officers basically. I'd hope most senior engineers (as in senior leads, not just senior as in 'over 5 years experience') are on or around £50k+ as well. Of course you don't usually have a final salary pension like a policeman or the prospect of early retirement but that's another story...

I'd hope so........!

Poor state of affairs either way.

[cybernoid]

Most of the developers etc. I come across know what they've been taught but don't know the strengths or the weaknesses of what they know, or what alternative technologies/approaches have to offers but yet are supremely confident in their abilities.

Concur with this. So shit they don't even know they are shit. Arrogance and incompetence is not a good mix, see labour party for further examples.

[robo1968]

I presume you’re like Lone Twin, and believe a global equilibrium/balance will be reached. I don’t, as imo it’s more likely that either we all fall down together or the Chindians will eat their own tails trying.

erm, not so much reached but the gap being reduced and that will mean us going down at a quicker rate than them coming up.

[South Lorne]

Part of software engineering is a creative activity. Too many western engineers pay lip service to testing and quality assurance - 'oh, that's the test team's work', 'oh, I'm too valuable to fix defects'.

The one thing I've noticed working with Japanese software engineers is that they are very, very disciplined and rarely slip targets. Ever wonder why a Nintendo Wii or DS or a Sony PlayStation 'just works'? (Compare them to the XBox which had all sorts of problems with hardware overheating and failing in the early years.) It's because of their better commitment to the end-user quality and reliability. A bit like their cars. So in some ways, making software is a manufacturing process, it's just that many programmers would like to place themselves above those kinds of jobs. Not that there's anything wrong with manufacturing, but it definitely is looked down on in western countries as blue collar but in Japan it's all the same.

I've only worked with Japanese engineers though, I would guess Korea is similar. I know India is very different, not sure about China yet.

...the Japanese follow the principles of Deming ....it works in the Nissan UK factory ...top for quality....

[aussieboy]

What about checking contracts, patent law, agreements, they don't end up in court. Have you ever had to pay a patent lawyer? you normally need to sit down first.

My last experience of one was when I asked for a check on a patent, I then received a telephone book sized envelope of printed internet searches I could have done myself and a bill for £1,000

Accountancy firms are already doing it in-house I know of local accountancy firms who have their accounts done in India and still charge full whack, that won't last when your value added is a piece of paper on the wall and a calculator.

This is going online in Australia.

http://inovia.clients.squiz.net/en/home

[robo1968]

This is going online in Australia.

http://inovia.clients.squiz.net/en/home

Thanks for that,

20-50% off the bat. It's worth a look isn't it.

[SHERWICK]

Been involved with IT that's been outsourced to India on and off for 18 years, and quite heavily involved at the moment.

My experience is that I'd never outsource stuff to India, while there are many good developers, that vast majority I come across aren't up to the job and I think it's a cultural thing - there's a culture of teaching rather than learning.

Most of the developers etc. I come across know what they've been taught but don't know the strengths or the weaknesses of what they know, or what alternative technologies/approaches have to offers but yet are supremely confident in their abilities.

It's a classic example the Dunning-Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) at work.

We're just about to bring some development back onshore, much to the angst of our offshore partners, who of course take it very personally.

Andy

Well, sorry to say this, but the offshore people need to do better. If they had done better then you wouldn't have been bringing it back onshore.

It's as simple as that.

They should find out the areas they didn't do well in, and improve.

[Johnny Storm]

Biggest problems with the UK I've seen have been with UK managers, usually very poorly trained, very little technical knowledge, overly cowed by senior management and too obsessed with status (I've known plenty who won't eat or go down the pub with the rest of the staff).

That's nothing to do with status. When you spend your working day surrounded by people who irritate you the last thing you want to do is spend your leisure time with them.

[ZeroSumGame]

That's nothing to do with status. When you spend your working day surrounded by people who irritate you the last thing you want to do is spend your leisure time with them.

Biggest problems with the UK I've seen have been with UK managers, usually very poorly trained, very little technical knowledge, overly cowed by senior management and too obsessed with status (I've known plenty who won't eat or go down the pub with the rest of the staff).

I think MP's got that description spot on. Why wouldn't the manager go down the pub and do some team-bonding, unless he thought himself above the plebs?

[DabHand]

Some light relief.

Because Caucasians are Just Too Damned Tall!

[South Lorne]

Well, sorry to say this, but the offshore people need to do better. If they had done better then you wouldn't have been bringing it back onshore.

It's as simple as that.

They should find out the areas they didn't do well in, and improve.

... AD claimed it's 'cultural'...you can't change that overnight .....