Britney's Piers Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 What has actually physically changed? The people are still here, no one has died (yet) and the earth is still intact and in orbit. Is the "economy" just an illusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 What has actually physically changed? The people are still here, no one has died (yet) and the earth is still intact and in orbit. Is the "economy" just an illusion? ...around the world.. trade, banks, industries have collapsed.. people are out of work ...etc etc ...have you not noticed..?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Survival of the fittest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's built on a few hoaxes - that's why it's in such shit atm. Some of them have been found out and have stopped working. Others have reached their natural lifespan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris25 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Have to admit, where I work in a luxury car garage, we have actually had one of our best years ever. Shops are still packed. Restuarants full. The QE gunpowder has "wooshed" up. Up go stocks, up go houses, up go prices. Combined with the £billions in bailout debt, there must be one hell of a lot of new money in the system. Watch purchasing power drop and commodities go sky high. Oil is naturally running out but combined with false boom funny-money it is gonna go sky high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It has been changing radically over the last 15 years or so. The debt bubble plastered over the cracks. It took the last couple of years for the mask to slip and reveal the true depth of destruction of productive capacity and lack of true investment to bring it to light. Not as obvious as the coal mines, but a whole slew of industries have quietly disappeared or gone sub-critical without the infrastructure or skills to revitalise them. Pissing about with the the exchange rate is not going to bring them back, ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horridbloke Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 What has actually physically changed? The people are still here, no one has died (yet) and the earth is still intact and in orbit. Is the "economy" just an illusion? We are now returning to reality as a severely disfunctional country that produces little of value and cannot feed itself. The previous few years of prosperity were an illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticus Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 What has actually physically changed? The people are still here, no one has died (yet) and the earth is still intact and in orbit. Is the "economy" just an illusion? The economy is a vast food-n-oil powered make work enterprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The economy is a vast food-n-oil powered make work enterprise. Yep..... Tiny problem is that we cant afford to import the food and oil we are gonna need to keep it going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanWall Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Yep..... Tiny problem is that we cant afford to import the food and oil we are gonna need to keep it going. The UK is more than capable of being self-sufficient food wise. As for energy....just start digging up coal again. That and horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The UK is more than capable of being self-sufficient food wise. As for energy....just start digging up coal again. That and horses. We'll never get the food or energy on line fast enough to save us. There is a bit more to coal mining than just deciding to dig and we are well short of food self sufficiency at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticus Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 We'll never get the food or energy on line fast enough to save us. There is a bit more to coal mining than just deciding to dig and we are well short of food self sufficiency at the moment. This is defeatist nonsense. The UK has a lot more oil per capita than say france or germany, japan or the US. Likewise the efficiency of our arable land in per-hectare output is one of the highest in the world I believe. I think we are 60% self sufficient in food, and via a moderation of consumption per head and population we could be fine. Also climate change will increase the UKs relative position in agricultural output. We do need to make sure we get those new nuke plants, the severn barrage and so forth online asap though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAC67 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The UK is more than capable of being self-sufficient food wise. As for energy....just start digging up coal again. That and horses. Is it, can you name the last year the UK was self sufficient in food? Remember we have paved over the arable land and the sea isn't quite as productive as it once was. I suppose I'm forgetting cannabalism, so "yes", I think we may be self-sufficient food wise, although dining on the average UK citizen would be very bad for the cholesterol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Not as obvious as the coal mines, but a whole slew of industries have quietly disappeared or gone sub-critical without the infrastructure or skills to revitalise them. Pissing about with the the exchange rate is not going to bring them back, ever. 20 years ago China didn't have much by way of infrastructure or skills. Didn't stop them. We'll never get the food or energy on line fast enough to save us. There is a bit more to coal mining than just deciding to dig and we are well short of food self sufficiency at the moment. Humans (especially ones as fat as modern Westerners) don't need that much food just to survive one winter, and next year we can dig up the golf courses and put back the vegetables. Don't write us off yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I've worked in plenty of offices where I've started to wonder if it all is a hoax. I've never worked anywhere where 95% of the people working there were doing anything of any actual use in the production of something of actual value. There's little difference between most people sat at their chair in the office or sat on the sofa at home watching tv in terms of their productive output. It's usually cheaper to have them sat at home. Maybe that's why we're seeing a jobless recovery, its beneficial to the economy for most people to stay at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAC67 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The last time we got to try this self sufficiency was during WW2 when the population was a lot lower (approximately 47 million). We couldn't so it then, I can't see it happening now. We had some oil and gas, it's nearly gone now, but what a great party we had, still, the memories should keep us warm. Anyone care to comment on our declining dairy farm industry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyOne Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The last time we got to try this self sufficiency was during WW2 when the population was a lot lower (approximately 47 million). We couldn't so it then, I can't see it happening now. We had some oil and gas, it's nearly gone now, but what a great party we had, still, the memories should keep us warm. Anyone care to comment on our declining dairy farm industry? There is still money in them thar udders .... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/missy-the-million-dollar-holstein/article1365788/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 This is defeatist nonsense. The UK has a lot more oil per capita than say france or germany, japan or the US. Actually it's realism. We have some oil and gas but nowhere near enough to sustain our current consumption. Likewise the efficiency of our arable land in per-hectare output is one of the highest in the world I believe. I think we are 60% self sufficient in food, and via a moderation of consumption per head and population we could be fine. Dream on, we could not do it in WW2 with a far more cohesive society than now. At this point we have no chance of reaching self sufficiency any time fast enough to avoid serious economic crisis and deep social 'unrest'. Also climate change will increase the UKs relative position in agricultural output. Crisis is coming a little fast for that to make any difference. We do need to make sure we get those new nuke plants, the severn barrage and so forth online asap though. Again, start building them now and its already too late to save this economy. Crisis is on us already, the early tremors are here and the earthquake is on it's way. I have to ask, just how long do you think QE and other such nonsense can actually hold reality at bay for? You are in for a nasty shock in the not too distant future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Dream on, we could not do it in WW2 with a far more cohesive society than now. At this point we have no chance of reaching self sufficiency any time fast enough to avoid serious economic crisis and deep social 'unrest'. Quite true. But after a bit of "social unrest" people will soon realise that their survival depends upon cohesion (and has done since the dawn of time) and get on with it. Day 1 of no food you complain Day 2 of no food you steal Day 3 of no food you get together with your mates and think "we need a long term plan here" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Quite true. But after a bit of "social unrest" people will soon realise that their survival depends upon cohesion (and has done since the dawn of time) and get on with it. Day 1 of no food you complain Day 2 of no food you steal Day 3 of no food you get together with your mates and think "we need a long term plan here" I agree, the end of the economy is not the end of humanity. We will adapt and move on ( or at least some will ). None of this is going to prop up the economy though and that was what we were talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spp Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Actually it's realism. We have some oil and gas but nowhere near enough to sustain our current consumption. Dream on, we could not do it in WW2 with a far more cohesive society than now. At this point we have no chance of reaching self sufficiency any time fast enough to avoid serious economic crisis and deep social 'unrest'. Crisis is coming a little fast for that to make any difference. Again, start building them now and its already too late to save this economy. Crisis is on us already, the early tremors are here and the earthquake is on it's way. I have to ask, just how long do you think QE and other such nonsense can actually hold reality at bay for? You are in for a nasty shock in the not too distant future. Good post. It's insane why we (the u.k) are not self sufficient! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Good post. It's insane why we (the u.k) are not self sufficient! It's not insane, it's economics - the principle of "comparative advantage". At some point it may become more efficient to return to self sufficiency for food, and at that point we will do so because it will then make sense. Or to put it another way, why bother slaving away in the fields if you can **** about on computers from 9 to 5 and get some foreigner to do the slaving away for you? When the foreigner wakes up to the fact he's being exploited, you shrug your shoulders, say "good while it lasted!" and get back out into the fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 What has actually physically changed? The people are still here, no one has died (yet) and the earth is still intact and in orbit. Is the "economy" just an illusion? You now understand what the austrians don't. Our consumption wasn't over the top, those cars and houses were real(the only unreal part was the trade deficit which was less than 5% of the total). All that has changed is the abstraction, the monetary system. The system for getting money into the hands of consumers has broken down. And now we have perfectly good car factories going idle and construction equipment sitting idle, while people still want new cars and new houses. The MEW-train was how consumers were getting money from about 2001-2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olebrum Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I can't remember which South American leader said "the ecomony is doing well, the people, not so well". The fictitious creation that is 'the economy', matters to those who matter, the rest of us can go take a runnng jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrabus Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 The UK is more than capable of being self-sufficient food wise. As for energy....just start digging up coal again. That and horses. I think you are wrong from what i have read the total land mass of the UK could only sustain 45 million people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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