Builder Tears Down Family's Roof

[benthebuilder]

No. I know people involved in making and building things and none of them feel it necessary to act like cocky tw@ts while doing their trade, and none feel it necessary to expect tea while working.

People probably would not think they were a cut above you if you didnt call them 'mush' and didnt behave like a cowboy, with your stupid ringtones, blase attitude to requests and your superiority complex.

A little humility never hurt anyone. If i go to someones house, i take my shoes off and treat their space with respect. If they ask me to make less noise i do, because it's their house and it's their rules.

If you dont like the lack of tea and laying down of ground rules, then i suggest you go to ireland and work in the building trade there....

...oh wait (coming soon to a country near you * ).

*

Funny you know all these people who are involved in making and building things but 90% of the people involoved in that sort of work are retards????

And I don't think health and safety be too happy with me walking round in my socks and try as I might, I can't find a demolition hammer that runs silently.

And I rarely have customers who don't get the kettle on...only tight little gimps like you.

And I don't have a silly ringtone....keep it on silent cos your mamma and your wife are always pestering me to come round.

Think you really need to think carefully about your dislike for people in the building trade...your distaste must really show and that's why you keep getting bad jobs.

[stormymonday_2011]

Under Criminal Law the builder is wrong.

TBH he has been a bit of a prat, and his mate an even bigger one for going along with it.

Criminal damage with intent to danger life.... 6-9 months inside (even without a custodial sentence he is finished) can't see his business surviving, who would give him work in the future with all the bad publicity?

I suppose his mate will be bleating on about a family to support and feed...should have thought about that before becoming a criminal, my heart bleeds not.

Idiot is the right word

BBC confirms the charge is criminal damage with intent to endanger life

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/8268629.stm

Should this result in a conviction in a Crown Court then the maximum custodial sentence could be up to 10 years,

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?a...;catID=861&

Right or wrong about his claim the builder was mad to take this high profile course of action because the courts are almost certainly going to make an example of him. If he opts for trial at the Crown Court he had better hope for a sympathetic jury (unlikely as the offence will almost certainly come to trial in Derbyshire and he comes from Lincolnshire). If he gets dragged before a Derbyshire Magistrate it will be a custodial sentence for sure.

He would have been better advised simply to have chinned his customer when he was not paid.

Edited September 23, 2009 by whatamisery

[HenryWeston]

BBC Link HERE

Ok, whilst I don't know all of the particulars surrounding this case I seriously doubt the builder would take such drastic action unless he had some valid grievances.

Really chafs my a$$ when people don't pay up when it comes to tradesmen. Like they'd do the same with a dentist or solicitor etc :angry:

Lol exellent, i bet they never expected him to do that, probably thought he'd just go away after chasing them for 5 years.

[Long Way Down]

Idiot is the right word

BBC confirms the charge is criminal damage with intent to endanger life

I accept that there was criminal damage, but I would imagine that the intent to endanger life would be more difficult to prove.

[SNACR]

I have never used credit facilities at any merchants, not one day never mind 90!

In the strange world that is British business, in my experience, suppliers rarely proffer the best terms to pro-froma accounts. (In fact, most likely to the 90 days eom settlers)

[Hectors House]

I accept that there was criminal damage, but I would imagine that the intent to endanger life would be more difficult to prove.

Chucking of roof tiles, destroying joists, people were in the house at the time, even if it was a building site he would have broken every H&S law in the book and would have been facing a criminal prosecution.

I hope they do make an example of him, too many hot heads about.

[Long Way Down]

Chucking of roof tiles, destroying joists, people were in the house at the time, even if it was a building site he would have broken every H&S law in the book and would have been facing a criminal prosecution.

I hope they do make an example of him, too many hot heads about.

Yes, but did he intend to danger life?

Health and Safety laws are broken thousands of times a day on thousands of building sites - how often do you hear of criminal prosecutions? - unless of course, someone is killed.

[Markxjr]

In the strange world that is British business, in my experience, suppliers rarely proffer the best terms to pro-froma accounts. (In fact, most likely to the 90 days eom settlers)

In the past I would have agreed with you, but even then, I had "accounts" I just insisted on paying the invoices as they were generated, I did not lose out. I have run a national wholesaler/merchants, I know the score. I have always liked to pay my bills immediately, after all, that's what I want my customers to do.

Now, everybody wants my business

[eightiesgirly]

You've got to get the kettle on and do a bacon sarnie, it's tradition. Just like bulders bum and whistling to the radio. What is the country coming to?

[jackofalltrades]

What a lot of vitriol going on here.

It seems that most posters,and everyone else knows very little about the "Building Trade" .

Everybody seems to have an opinion, perhaps because its activities are so transparent- cars, processed food ,clothes etc ,etc are made out of site in secure and often secretive environments, for good reason on the manufacturers part,probably.

We usually do it in public.

So can I clarify what and who " Builders and " Workmen" are and do? As near as I can in my workmans way?

I. Chancers. Possibly have a van or old car,no signwriting, know very little,just need cash.

I would include fairweather "Property developers" in this category.

Sometimes cold call, or are a friend of a friend.

Always avoid-always.

2. Tradesmen. Often do evening and weekend work for cash, usually guess prices, or charge by the hour.

Brickies,Carpenters, Plasterers usually who work for various firms. Might do a good job but will have little backup,

usually make a mess and will want paying on the dot. OK if you are prepared and have experience of working

in the trade.

3. Bona fide Tradesmen.Plumbers,Electricians, D/Glazing,Block Pavers,Kitchen fitters , Roofers Decorators etc.

Sign written vans, look for land line No,s and address.

Bricklayers/masons and carpenters also fit into this category, with sign written pick ups,but usually work as sub- contractors for large firms. Usually time served tradesmen -but remember they are specialists and dont usually cross trades.so be prepared to employ several different trades if you are fitting a kitchen or similar. Firms which specialise in

Plumbing/C/ heating ,say often offer other services but will be expensive. Loft conversion firms are the same.

And remember, you will be the site manager! These people are tradesman/woman ,not general Builders.

Usually give a written quote. Also-an estimate is not a quote.

4. Small Builders. Have Vans ,Pick Ups not always white. Usually signwritten.

Would most likely be sole traders or partnerships, ex-tradesmen usually, often bricklayers or carpenters.

Sometimes have employees but tend to use sub-contractors for stuff they cant do.

Should provide written quotations, undertake work like garages and extensions, alterations, around the

£10.000-100,000 mark. Deal with architects and L/authoritys, take care of all aspects of the job.

I am a small builder myself, a stonemason, and I always agree on stage payments weekly,or monthly.

Beware the odd chancer who has made it this far, and uses sub contractors for everything. Avoid.

Most get work by word of mouth/recommendation. Not usually NHBC members so wouldnt normally build a whole house, but renovate them. Usually will be glad to give references.

5. Building Companies. Have their own plant, a yard. lorries, employ most of their staff.

Have full time offices. Build houses and small developments,and have specialist divisions.

You have to have a lot of money,and they often ask for half the fee up front.

Do a lot of L/A work as well as private jobs. Very good standards of work but not cheap.

Might charge for big quotes.

6. Big firms, National housebuilders. Formulaic tosh by androids.

7. Big firms,civil engineering contractors. Bridges, Airports. You know.

8. Specialists like Joiners who make Windows and doors, Iron workers-Metal windows, and all that stuff and so on.

So,its not just builders and workmen.

Most of us work hard and like to do a good job. Give and take, mutual respect, and no money troubles are the key to

a happy site and a pleasing result, And dont be hung up on deadlines. I usually tell people I dont do quick, I do properly, and sometimes the two coincide.

[stormymonday_2011]

I accept that there was criminal damage, but I would imagine that the intent to endanger life would be more difficult to prove.

The custodial sentence is apparently linked to the cost of the damage. The SP are as follows

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentenc...amage_-_simple/

You don't have to endanger life to wind up in the slammer and I doubt that revenge is going to be regarded as mitigating circumstances.

The courts loath people who take the law into their own hands whether justified or not.

They are going down. The only question is for how long.

[porca misèria]

job one on the first day, Make a note of exactly what tea each of the builders have (milk, 4 sugars, etc) and bring them out for them and hand them out to them when they are on the job - don't invite them to the kitchen to drink it.... . I have found that an icecold beer for them on a Friday afternoon (when they knock off about 3pm) is also a very good way to make sure that they do a slightly better job (and is money well spent).....

builders work far far far better when suitably refreshed.

Also accept that some days, you are not going to get 100% productivity, say on groundworks - builders get tired too - so don't have a go at them for that - but make sure you have a price for the job. And don't start changing spec from the original plans - that is expensive - especially with sparkies and plumbers........

You a project manager or somesuch for a day-job? We could really do with that level of basic commonsense in so many workplaces ....

Btw, some interesting posts from our tradesmen in this thread. As a customer I'm always scared of getting mucked about and ripped off until I know you, but the bad experience generally ends as soon as you arrive and start work! I daresay it's the rare horror stories that get told the most, as in many other trades.

[Markxjr]

3. Bona fide Tradesmen.Plumbers,Electricians, D/Glazing,Block Pavers,Kitchen fitters , Roofers Decorators etc. Sign written vans, look for land line No,s and address.

Oh yes! A good % of our work is repairing new flat roofs. Client has no landline number, no idea where the the "tradesman" is based, no paperwork and not a leg to stand on.

The first thing is to check out that he is is who he says he is. How difficult is that? How difficult is it to view some of his local installations and talk to his clients?

Edited September 24, 2009 by Markxjr

[Rachman]

Oh yes! A good % of our work is repairing new flat roofs. Client has no landline number, no idea where the the "tradesman" is based, no paperwork and not a leg to stand on.

The first thing is to check out that he is is who he says he is. How difficult is that? How difficult is it to view some of his local installations and talk to his clients?

pikeys can be convincing.

Two drives were done in our street within 8 weeks of each other.

one of them had sett edges, the requisite hardcore put down, and the proper 2 plus 1 tarmac put down by the main contractors in the area using rollers, a team of a dozen men and a proper receipt.

the other had a the pikeys round using 'tarmac' they had left over - when in reality all they did was put down a cheap thin coat over an existing cracked and tree root split drive and chuck gravel on it.

the cost was ... the same.

I was told I was overdoing it, apparently....

4 years later, which one is in one piece, beejaysus ?

[HenryWeston]

What a lot of vitriol going on here.

It seems that most posters,and everyone else knows very little about the "Building Trade" .

Everybody seems to have an opinion, perhaps because its activities are so transparent- cars, processed food ,clothes etc ,etc are made out of site in secure and often secretive environments, for good reason on the manufacturers part,probably.

We usually do it in public.

So can I clarify what and who " Builders and " Workmen" are and do? As near as I can in my workmans way?

I. Chancers. Possibly have a van or old car,no signwriting, know very little,just need cash.

I would include fairweather "Property developers" in this category.

Sometimes cold call, or are a friend of a friend.

Always avoid-always.

2. Tradesmen. Often do evening and weekend work for cash, usually guess prices, or charge by the hour.

Brickies,Carpenters, Plasterers usually who work for various firms. Might do a good job but will have little backup,

usually make a mess and will want paying on the dot. OK if you are prepared and have experience of working

in the trade.

3. Bona fide Tradesmen.Plumbers,Electricians, D/Glazing,Block Pavers,Kitchen fitters , Roofers Decorators etc.

Sign written vans, look for land line No,s and address.

Bricklayers/masons and carpenters also fit into this category, with sign written pick ups,but usually work as sub- contractors for large firms. Usually time served tradesmen -but remember they are specialists and dont usually cross trades.so be prepared to employ several different trades if you are fitting a kitchen or similar. Firms which specialise in

Plumbing/C/ heating ,say often offer other services but will be expensive. Loft conversion firms are the same.

And remember, you will be the site manager! These people are tradesman/woman ,not general Builders.

Usually give a written quote. Also-an estimate is not a quote.

4. Small Builders. Have Vans ,Pick Ups not always white. Usually signwritten.

Would most likely be sole traders or partnerships, ex-tradesmen usually, often bricklayers or carpenters.

Sometimes have employees but tend to use sub-contractors for stuff they cant do.

Should provide written quotations, undertake work like garages and extensions, alterations, around the

£10.000-100,000 mark. Deal with architects and L/authoritys, take care of all aspects of the job.

I am a small builder myself, a stonemason, and I always agree on stage payments weekly,or monthly.

Beware the odd chancer who has made it this far, and uses sub contractors for everything. Avoid.

Most get work by word of mouth/recommendation. Not usually NHBC members so wouldnt normally build a whole house, but renovate them. Usually will be glad to give references.

5. Building Companies. Have their own plant, a yard. lorries, employ most of their staff.

Have full time offices. Build houses and small developments,and have specialist divisions.

You have to have a lot of money,and they often ask for half the fee up front.

Do a lot of L/A work as well as private jobs. Very good standards of work but not cheap.

Might charge for big quotes.

6. Big firms, National housebuilders. Formulaic tosh by androids.

7. Big firms,civil engineering contractors. Bridges, Airports. You know.

8. Specialists like Joiners who make Windows and doors, Iron workers-Metal windows, and all that stuff and so on.

So,its not just builders and workmen.

Most of us work hard and like to do a good job. Give and take, mutual respect, and no money troubles are the key to

a happy site and a pleasing result, And dont be hung up on deadlines. I usually tell people I dont do quick, I do properly, and sometimes the two coincide.

Good post, im sure the reason for the dislike of tradesmen on here is because a lot of trades earn a fair bit more than the 'university graduates' that have worked so hard for their bits of paper and who expect to earn much more than grubby tradesmen working with their hands.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Could still claim through the County Court, just not throught the small claims track. The main downside would be outside the small claims track he'd have no protection from having the other party's costs awarded against him, if he lost.

Could they divide the £15K job into 3 x £5k invoices originally issued by them for vagely seperate jobs, and take each one though the small claims court as a seperate case ?

[Cogs]

Good post, im sure the reason for the dislike of tradesmen on here is because a lot of trades earn a fair bit more than the 'university graduates' that have worked so hard for their bits of paper and who expect to earn much more than grubby tradesmen working with their hands.

Nasty case of inverted snobbery you've got there Henry.

Get over it. My mate is a plasterer, he also has a couple of degrees.

Splits his time between the plastering and his professional activities, irons in the fire and all that.

Its less rare than it might suit you to believe.

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

Surely the most depressing aspect of this is the use of a police helicopter?

Totally bloody mad.

I guess being charged with criminal damage is one thing, but where the hell did the police get the `intent to endanger life` bit? Guess that`ll look good on the statistics table!

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

Nasty case of inverted snobbery you've got there Henry.

Get over it. My mate is a plasterer, he also has a couple of degrees.

Splits his time between the plastering and his professional activities, irons in the fire and all that.

Its less rare than it might suit you to believe.

I`ve got two degrees. First one was reasonably credible - but not much use. Second one was an MSc conversion and was - and still is - a fecking joke! Judging a guy just because he`s got a regional accent is a bit unfair.

[pl1]

We've had a bad experience with tradesmen - 1 with a contract and another without a contract.

The first problem was getting a bill for several hundred quid that related to "time spent on other jobs in addition to contract" when in actual fact, it was really to pay for the extra week it took him to complete the job ... we met in the middle in the end, neither of us were happy

the second job...... blah blah waffle drone drone blah whine yawn..

This is why I'm so pleased I don't own a property. Problem with the property? I call the landlord, he get's someone out to fix it, doens't cost me anything until the job is done. No phoning or dealing with builders with working class accents, or cowboy plumbers, or transvesite sparky's.. Job done

Edited September 27, 2009 by pl1

[pilchardthecat]

It's perfectly reasonable to withhold between 10% and 25% as retention until and defects are remedied... and if the defects are not corrected, it's perfectly reasonable to keep that money and use it to pay someone else to do it.