It Job Market Goes Down Toilet

[Mixle]

flash has its place but its so bloated now, they have just made it so that its complicated to use and requires teaching so theres a whole industry of people teaching it now. It doesn't have to be complicated, they just make it that way.

This is true of most commercial software. With time it gets more difficult to use, so simply knowing how to control it becomes a skill. With a bit more time, those skills rise in price. Then you make more off training courses than you do off the licenses.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

I agree with you. Not because I`m looking for confirmation of what I believe, but because all this `fluffy Microsoft window (ripped-off-from-Apple) business` is just pure BS. Conversion courses suck big time. Duke of Hazzard`s response upset me, so I went running home to mummy in tears,

Now I`m feeling better, I`m not sure if a Flash-based poker client is much use except for muppets who gamble their savings away. It`s great for people who make money from others, but I don`t see how *useful* it is.

I`m not sure I want to get into any more IT debates for fear of some square-spectacled `devigner` (developer+designer) knocking me down with references to their latest Flash / C# / bs app. Damn I feel inadequate!

"Computers are useless - they only give you answers." Picasso

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

im in IT.

I hate the IT market, it still wouldnt employ me.

im totally self taught and have done loads, but i dont earn much. im lolling at the guy saying he earns 6 figures, lol, took me a while to figure out that that £100000k plus, lol.

i earn sod all really and work all the time, hence why im always on this forum. But its totally enjoyable, i love it.

even so, i garantee that if i sent my CV out i would get nothing, and would probably get filtered back through to a 'call center'.

Most new skills are BULL.

When I was in the death camps (call center) it was all about learning apps like SAP or PeopleSoft. I always said that that was BULL, they are just interfaces, designed for idiots to learn quickly, but thats what alot of IT is about. Idiot level IT.

Programming is different. I do that, and you really begin to notice why programmers charge more, its definatly a discipline that requires intelligence and ability. In my line of work you meet so many people that know a few Access Macros or such and so think they can tell you exactly how to build stuff, but in reality they dont know much more than the average idiot, because macros were built for idiots.

I love all this stuff and read books on VLSI and CMOS technology, ven built my own flip flop gates and RS232 robots and such, M68000 machine code, its interesting stuff, then you bump into someone that thinks your an idoit because you cant treat a POP account like MS EXCHANGE and dynamically route e-mails across accounts and such.

i could tell some stories about idiots, the world is full of them, but im totally unemployable and the idiots never seem to be out of a job. im just fortunate that what i do is just that much too difficult for people do themselves so i can be 'self employed'.

I think your communication skills might be holding you back. Do you even do a basic spell check before applying for jobs.

We're hiring, IYI pm me your CV.

PS It must be a flash banner, and be implemented as an OO, enterprise java beanlet. Thanks.

[slurms mackenzie]

"Computers are useless - they only give you answers." Picasso

SISO

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

SISO

Wasn`t it Babbage who was asked by an MP that if there was any way of the output from his Analytical Engine being made to give the `right answer` irrespective of the input?

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

I think your communication skills might be holding you back. Do you even do a basic spell check before applying for jobs.

We're hiring, IYI pm me your CV.

PS It must be a flash banner, and be implemented as an OO, enterprise java beanlet. Thanks.

I just want to add: I`ve got plenty of time for OO! (And enough respect for Java too!)

[slurms mackenzie]

Wasn`t it Babbage who was asked by an MP that if there was any way of the output from his Analytical Engine being made to give the `right answer` irrespective of the input?

I'd never heard that one but it wouldn't surprise me, i've heard plenty of PMs request it

[CrashConnoisseur]

Wasn`t it Babbage who was asked by an MP that if there was any way of the output from his Analytical Engine being made to give the `right answer` irrespective of the input?

I didn't know they used inflation targeting in his day.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

The quote I know is Babbage relating that he had been asked that question twice. You might be mixing it up with the story of Faraday being asked whether electricity would ever be useful.

I believe he replied that he would be ugly in the morning.

[50%deposit]

I think your communication skills might be holding you back. Do you even do a basic spell check before applying for jobs.

We're hiring, IYI pm me your CV.

PS It must be a flash banner, and be implemented as an OO, enterprise java beanlet. Thanks.

whats your company?

must admit, im not looking, but occasionally i look. im self employed with liabilities, but i have considered doing small stints here and there, short term, but right at this momnet i couldnt even if i wanted.

plus im pretty anti social, im pretty good at communication, im like a cat that has its furr permantly up, most people get the impression i dont like them pretty soon, i get angry in crowded places and all sorts. i especially hate recruitment people as they usually talk out of their other end.

my spelling is fine.

my mum used to be a short hand typists for a big electronics firm and the people she worked for were all senior engineers on big time electronics projects like propulsion on concorde. She told me that none of them could spell, presumably that was typing up notes etc. i think not spelling is a virtue, plus this is only a forum huh, its not as though its going to print.

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

The quote I know is Babbage relating that he had been asked that question twice. You might be mixing it up with the story of Faraday being asked whether electricity would ever be useful.

I believe he replied that he would be ugly in the morning.

Sure that wasn`t Churchill replying to a minger?!

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

whats your company?

must admit, im not looking, but occasionally i look. im self employed with liabilities, but i have considered doing small stints here and there, short term, but right at this momnet i couldnt even if i wanted.

plus im pretty anti social, im pretty good at communication, im like a cat that has its furr permantly up, most people get the impression i dont like them pretty soon, i get angry in crowded places and all sorts. i especially hate recruitment people as they usually talk out of their other end.

my spelling is fine.

my mum used to be a short hand typists for a big electronics firm and the people she worked for were all senior engineers on big time electronics projects like propulsion on concorde. She told me that none of them could spell, presumably that was typing up notes etc. i think not spelling is a virtue, plus this is only a forum huh, its not as though its going to print.

My experience has been the exact reverse. Learning to communicate clearly is good manners at the least, and spelling/grammar is not exactly rocket science.

It takes me much longer to read your text than it otherwise would, simply because you can't be bothered to learn some simple rules.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

Sure that wasn`t Churchill replying to a minger?!

Evidently the joke was too subtle.

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

Evidently the joke was too subtle.

It was so subtle I didn`t even get a hint of what it might have been. Care to educate a lesser mortal?

[50%deposit]

My experience has been the exact reverse. Learning to communicate clearly is good manners at the least, and spelling/grammar is not exactly rocket science.

It takes me much longer to read your text than it otherwise would, simply because you can't be bothered to learn some simple rules.

point taken, but it is just a forum, and most people i deal with who are company directors have far worse communication skills than i do. 90% of the big boys i deal with dont have time to even type an e-mail. No offence, but i live in the real world and in that world im a veritable wordsmith!!! My prose and perambles are sought after and held in high esteme.

If a message is important you read it again and spell check, if not... well, off it goes.

I recieve alot of very encrypted messages pertaining to be concise instructions of one form or another.

Its the artificail world of Human Resources and such, tertiary industries where pedantic and anaal control over spelling creates an artificail reality tat is not the real world.

People think that a spell check will make their stuff make sense!!! NO.

Ive seen perfectly spelt power point presentations that made no sense at all whilst ive seen great meaning in the wink of an eye. Just because you have spell checked something doesnt mean its either gramatically accurate or that it makes sense and conveys substance or understanding.

etc etc blah blah blah

[hirop]

If you ain't earning enough for your time, think about what value you or the service you facilitate, adds to the business. IT that adds value gets rewarded well. Box kickers, support staff, even technology specialists, can always be replaced (or outsourced). I been through dev roles, support roles, service roles, but the best money is when what you are doing is perceived as making the employer money (the actual skill is not that relevant). Keeping the email system up is not perceived as making the company money, wrongly that's something that is just taken for granted.

Sure there will be a couple of technology specialists pulling 40\45K, and maybe one enterprise architect pulling in the 65\75K ballpark, but those roles are in short supply in the enterprise companies that reward those figures. And what next if you want to progress? Service Management? 5 days of ITIL ever week????

Moving away from that side of IT into business solutions brings good opportunities, if you have the people skills to go with the technical ability the rewards are there. The guys laughing at flash.....do you think the big boss man cares what the solution is made from? That useless rich interface.......used in an application that forms part of a tender for a 20 million quid contract? If it wows it's done it's job, if it's fit for purpose, it's done it's job. You help win the contract, the MD will be happy, you get your bonus, happy days.

Generally, as a rule of thumb, if you come up with a solution the business didn't know it needed, that saves 6 weeks of work for ever quarter, then it's going to be good for your salary...

[Joey Buttafueco Jr]

In which areas of IT generally ?

Developers in banks

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

If you ain't earning enough for your time, think about what value you or the service you facilitate, adds to the business. IT that adds value gets rewarded well. Box kickers, support staff, even technology specialists, can always be replaced (or outsourced). I been through dev roles, support roles, service roles, but the best money is when what you are doing is perceived as making the employer money (the actual skill is not that relevant). Keeping the email system up is not perceived as making the company money, wrongly that's something that is just taken for granted.

Sure there will be a couple of technology specialists pulling 40\45K, and maybe one enterprise architect pulling in the 65\75K ballpark, but those roles are in short supply in the enterprise companies that reward those figures. And what next if you want to progress? Service Management? 5 days of ITIL ever week????

Moving away from that side of IT into business solutions brings good opportunities, if you have the people skills to go with the technical ability the rewards are there. The guys laughing at flash.....do you think the big boss man cares what the solution is made from? That useless rich interface.......used in an application that forms part of a tender for a 20 million quid contract? If it wows it's done it's job, if it's fit for purpose, it's done it's job. You help win the contract, the MD will be happy, you get your bonus, happy days.

Generally, as a rule of thumb, if you come up with a solution the business didn't know it needed, that saves 6 weeks of work for ever quarter, then it's going to be good for your salary...

I didn`t laugh at Flash - just the way it`s being used in a `one size fits all` approach. As usual, licking the boss`s **** - while actually contributing nothing of value - is something that certain people do a good job of. Next thing you`ll be saying that working for a month for no salary is a good way of improving your promotion prospects (which it probably is, but is of little relevance if the business goes under).

[Sir Sidney Ruff-Diamond]

I am one of those developers that kind of latched onto .NET very early and have grown up with it. When I first starting using .NET it was nicknamed "Not Yet".

I agree that the money probably lies in areas other than pure IT. Pure IT has become commoditized, mostly for all the most unfair reasons.

Firstly, developers are generally not very communicative which never helps one get along in places where others have to share your working environment.

Secondly developers and other IT people have to do the most technically difficult work so feel (quite rightly) that they should be paid a decent wage to do it.

Thirdly because unfortunately management rarely sees it that way, and tends to resent the cabal for its monopoly on computery wizardry black arts. In time, the IT wizards' work gets outsourced to people with equally bad communication skills, but very deferential sounding accents and very very modest wage demands. Everyone's a winner! (Apart from the IT wizard who's now sitting at home wondering why he didn't study something easier at college).

Therefore I have little sympathy for IT people with limited communication skills and even fewer social skills (or at least enough to recognise when someone is throwing them an opportunity).

Quite frankly if you are good enough that your social skills don't matter, you certainly don't need to be moping around here reading a thread about what went wrong in the IT market.

Flash? We used to have a word for it when it was overused in the late 1990s - flashturbation.

[hirop]

I didn`t laugh at Flash - just the way it`s being used in a `one size fits all` approach. As usual, licking the boss`s **** - while actually contributing nothing of value - is something that certain people do a good job of. Next thing you`ll be saying that working for a month for no salary is a good way of improving your promotion prospects (which it probably is, but is of little relevance if the business goes under).

well, you did kind of said it was pointless. Which, in the grand scheme of medical science, is true but if it fits the bill and it's what a business needs at a point in time to move forward in it's process of making money then for that company it ceases to be pointless. I don't care about Flash or it's merits, that's just not the point. The day I ceased to be emotionally invested in any of the technologies I used to love\hate is the day my work output improved 1000%.

How you get onto ****-licking and promotions I have no idea. Sure, plenty of numpties get ahead " if their face fits," when maybe they shouldn't. That's life. But I certainly won't be advocating being either a 'yes man', or working for no payment. Ever.

None of that was the point anyway. IT as a function, adding value to a business, against companies that perceive IT as a unavoidable evil cost, can be financially rewarding, so working out opportunities to deliver on that point can be good for salary progress - even in a declining market. To boot, it makes for interesting work.

[hirop]

Thirdly because unfortunately management rarely sees it that way, and tends to resent the cabal for its monopoly on computery wizardry black arts. In time, the IT wizards' work gets outsourced to people with equally bad communication skills, but very deferential sounding accents and very very modest wage demands. Everyone's a winner! (Apart from the IT wizard who's now sitting at home wondering why he didn't study something easier at college).

Liking this. So true. No one is safe, ever. All it takes is a change to a major system, or even a change at the top of the IT structure and it's game over. There is always the danger that the new guy gets that the thing\knowledge they currently pay you a packet for can probably be outsourced to a supplier for about 1/3 of the cost and they will take the support overhead as well. That's just the luck of the managerial draw.

[buyinginafewyears]

In my experience, spelling and punctuation is deemed to be unimportant by those who those who are unable to spell and punctuate. It is a defence mechanism. That's all.

[50%deposit]

lol

['Bart']

I think we will see a new energy source unveiled in the next 5 years.

Cartoonist Gahan Wilson, when asked what he thought the next great source of energy would be, replied "slavery".

Does slavery count as "new" though?

['Bart']

In my experience, spelling and punctuation is deemed to be unimportant by those who those who are unable to spell and punctuate. It is a defence mechanism. That's all.

I think spelling and punctuation are important, but pointing out the errors of others on a forum will come back and bite you on the ass, trust me, I speak from experience.

Generally, the standard is pretty high on here, compared to some forums.