Bedrock Of Vaccination Theory Crumbles As Science Reveals Antibodies Not Necessary To Fight Viruses

[The Eagle]

I've had enough of these discussions to recognise the tactics, eagle my laddie. Have fun going round in circles.

Hmm, yes your tactics of not proving any of your claims might work with some people but not in this case.

Better disappear before you completely expose yourself as a troll...

[Tenubracon]

Hmm, yes your tactics of not proving any of your claims might work with some people but not in this case.

Better disappear before you completely expose yourself as a troll...

Yes, you certainly bested me there. And so polite and gracious too.

[The Eagle]

Yes, you certainly bested me there. And so polite and gracious too.

Thank you, your compliments are too kind!

[fluffy666]

High dosages of a virus are not a natural event, therefore that observation is completely meaningless.

Unless someone does something really bizzare, like sneezing.

[The Eagle]

Unless someone does something really bizzare, like sneezing.

I doubt that's anywhere near the high dosages they were referring to in the tests.

[fluffy666]

Hmm, yes your tactics of not proving any of your claims might work with some people but not in this case.

Better disappear before you completely expose yourself as a troll...

I'd like to remind you that irony meters are not cheap, and mine is currently reduced to molten slag..

[winkie]

Touch wood....I must be my doctors worst customer....in fact although I know all the names I could never put a face to them

[fluffy666]

I doubt that's anywhere near the high dosages they were referring to in the tests.

Is that 'doubt because you have carefully calculated the viral loads typically reached in in vitro conditions and compared this value to the experimental 'high value''

Or

'doubt because otherwise, it would conflict with what you want to be true'

[Byron]

Either they are right, or they are wrong. So why does vacination work?

Medical facts seem to change all the time. Milk is good/bad for you. So is red meat.

Smoking,particularly menthol cigarettes is good for asthma, no its not, well it might help but its dangerous.

Fried foods are good/bad. Cholesterol tests are only a snap shot and not necessarily accurate.

Blood pressure patients, maybe up to a third only have 'White coat hypertension' and could come off their medicines.

Apparently, since about 1830, more lives have been saved, not by medicine but by sewage engineering and clean water.

The list goes on and on, so why argue, something will come along tomorrow to change it all.

[ccc]

I am wary of a lot of medicines and general advice from the medical fraternity simply because - from personal experiences and those of friends and family - a lot of it is totally useless.

However this would not stop me using medicines if I saw the results. I had anti-biotics last week for throat infection actually.

On the other hand I used various things for my hayfever for years. None of it doing much good. Then I moved onto homeopathic pills - that should really do zero if the science is to be believed. However they work amazingly well for me. Placebo effect or just stuff we really don't know ? Who knows - who cares - they piss on everything else I have tried - and they are natural and cheap as chips.

Little things like this - and we all know of them - are enough to tell me you need to be very open minded about all this stuff.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

...

On the other hand I used various things for my hayfever for years. None of it doing much good. Then I moved onto homeopathic pills - that should really do zero if the science is to be believed. However they work amazingly well for me. Placebo effect or just stuff we really don't know ? Who knows - who cares - they piss on everything else I have tried - and they are natural and cheap as chips.

...

We don't know what the placebo effect is, we've just given it a name

In a similar vein, red wine allegedly protects French hearts from their staple diet of lard and cigarettes but I'm unaware of any GP's prescribing NHS Merlot for heart conditions

[PopGun]

TB, Polio and Diptheria eradicated? Are you sure?

Small pox is a good example against the article, however it's a very isolated one. Horses for courses.

[fluffy666]

TB, Polio and Diptheria eradicated? Are you sure?

Small pox is a good example against the article, however it's a very isolated one. Horses for courses.

Polio was on the verge of eradication until the Nigerian branch of the anti-vaccination brigade got in the way. A few thousand dead and maimed children doesn't concern these guys.

It is the huge paradox of vaccines.. people no longer live in fear of infectious disease to anything like the extent of even 50 years ago.

[fluffy666]

I am wary of a lot of medicines and general advice from the medical fraternity simply because - from personal experiences and those of friends and family - a lot of it is totally useless.

Personal experience is an extremely poor way of assessing what medicine works. Especially for minor, chronic or self-limiting conditions.

That is why medical researchers put large amounts of effort into creating trials where no one (including the researchers) knows who is getting what treatment.

On the other hand I used various things for my hayfever for years. None of it doing much good. Then I moved onto homeopathic pills - that should really do zero if the science is to be believed. However they work amazingly well for me. Placebo effect or just stuff we really don't know ? Who knows - who cares - they piss on everything else I have tried - and they are natural and cheap as chips.

Sugar pills are natural?

Here's an ad-hoc list of possible reasons for your experience:

- The prevailing wind direction has changed in the past couple of years, exposing you to fewer antigens.

- You don't react well to anti-histamines, so by not taking them you end up feeling better.

- Local farmers have changed crops, so again you are exposed to less or different pollen, giving less reaction.

- The expectation that these pills will work has lowered your cortisone levels, leading to less inflammation and hence fewer hayfever symptoms.

- Physics, Chemistry, Biology and multiple careful double-blind studies are wrong.

[ccc]

Fluffy - personal experience is a great way of finding out what things work for ME - and that is the most important thing to me. I am sure you appreciate that. As for the hayfever tablets ? Who knows - however it is one hell of a co-incidence that it more or less disappeared as soon as i started using them. Thats good enough for me. Sometimes things just work - and whilst i am generally a very logical type of person - when it comes to health and medicine i think there are just lots of things out there we have no clue about. And if something 'strange' works ? Great - finding out exactly how or why is not hugely important imo.

[ccc]

We don't know what the placebo effect is, we've just given it a name

In a similar vein, red wine allegedly protects French hearts from their staple diet of lard and cigarettes but I'm unaware of any GP's prescribing NHS Merlot for heart conditions

yep so much out there we think we know - but clearly do not.

[Kurt Barlow]

TB, Polio and Diptheria eradicated? Are you sure?

Small pox is a good example against the article, however it's a very isolated one. Horses for courses.

Prevalence is much lower where high uptake of vaccines has taken place.

How many british kids suffer the consequences of Polio these days?

[PopGun]

Prevalence is much lower where high uptake of vaccines has taken place.

How many british kids suffer the consequences of Polio these days?

Very few thanks to vaccines (and better awareness), but not eradicated to the extent of small pox. More apple and orange comparisons.

[corevalue]

polio, diptheria

Personal anecdotal. I contracted diptheria TWO WEEKS after vaccination. No known contact ( I lived in a remote house, pre-school).

[Kurt Barlow]

Personal anecdotal. I contracted diptheria TWO WEEKS after vaccination. No known contact ( I lived in a remote house, pre-school).

dud vaccine?

[Kurt Barlow]

Very few thanks to vaccines (and better awareness), but not eradicated to the extent of small pox. More apple and orange comparisons.

I never suggested that all vaccines in all cases are the universal cause of a signficant decline in the prevalence of infectious diseases. Control of Bovine TB in humans had as much to do with pasteurisation of milk as it did vaccination but that doesn't diminish the value of vaccination programs.

[newbonic]

I never suggested that all vaccines in all cases are the universal cause of a signficant decline in the prevalence of infectious diseases. Control of Bovine TB in humans had as much to do with pasteurisation of milk as it did vaccination but that doesn't diminish the value of vaccination programs.

People not getting vaccinated (or stopping their kids getting vaccinated) will though.

[Goat]

dud vaccine?

IIRC vaccines don't offer 100% protection to everybody, their real benefit is the herd immunity mentioned earlier.

[The Eagle]

IIRC vaccines don't offer 100% protection to everybody, their real benefit is the herd immunity mentioned earlier.

Herd immunity is a myth perpetuated to increase vaccine sales, there is not a single study proving conclusively that herd immunity is real.

[The Eagle]

Myths and Facts: Study Verifies That There Is No Value In Any Flu Vaccine

A remarkable study published in the Cochrane Library found no evidence of benefit for influenza vaccinations and also noted that the vast majority of trials were inadequate.

The authors stated that the only ones showing benefit were industry-funded. They also pointed out that the industry-funded studies were more likely to be published in the most prestigious journals...and one more thing: They found cases of severe harm caused by the vaccines, in spite of inadequate reporting of adverse effects.

The study, "Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults", is damning of the entire pharmaceutical industry and its minions, the drug testing industry and the medical system that relies on them.

In the usual manner of understatement, the authors concluded:

The results of this review seem to discourage the utilization of vaccination against influenza in healthy adults as a routine public health measure. As healthy adults have a low risk of complications due to respiratory disease, the use of the vaccine may be only advised as an individual protection measure against symptoms in specific cases.

The Study

The authors attempted to find and investigate every study that has evaluated the effects of flu vaccines in healthy adults aged 18-65. To this end, they "searched Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials (CENTRAL) (The Cochrane Library, 2010, issue 2), MEDLINE (January 1966 to June 2010) and EMBASE (1990 to June 2010)." They included 50 reports. Forty of them were clinical trials adding up to over 70,000 people. Two reported only on harmful effects and were not included in this study.

Studies of all types of influenza vaccines were included: live, attenuated, and killed – or fractions of killed – vaccines.

The primary outcomes they looked for were numbers and seriousness of influenza and influenza-like illnesses. They also looked at the number and seriousness of harms from the vaccines. The authors attempted to collect missing data by writing to the authors. They describe the response as "disappointing". In the end, they included 50 studies and refused to use 92, mostly because of highly significant flaws, such as using inappropriate controls, not being randomly controlled trials, inconsistencies in data presented, lack of study design, unclear definitions, poor reporting, lack of crude data, and lack of placebo.

The authors found that vaccines administered parenterally, that is, outside the digestive tract, usually meaning by injection, reduced influenza-like symptoms by 4%. They found no evidence that vaccination prevents viral transmission! (There goes the whole herd immunity argument!) They also found no evidence that they prevent complications, either.

They attempted to ascertain the degree of complications, and though they did report on some, most of the studies simply did not address the issue or did so inadequately.

Five Myths to Keep in Mind About Flu Vaccines

Myth 1: The Flu Shot is very effective.

Statistically, you are less likely to get the flu if you haven’t had a flu vaccine. A BCTV reporter in Vancouver, commenting on the overload in BC emergency rooms, said that out of 32 people who had received a flu shot, 30 got the flu.

Myth 2: The Flu Shot has a high success rate.

This is a vaccine that only has a 6.25% success rate. This is a pretty big under-achievement, considering that the average reaction to placebo injections of distilled water is 30%.

Myth 3: The Flu Shot is safe.

Hugh Fudenberg MD, who is the world’s leading immunogeneticist, says that if a person had 5 flu vaccinations between 1970 and 1980 he/she is 10 times more likely to get Alzheimer’s Disease than if he/she had only one or two shots. Fudenberg said that this was because of the aluminum and mercury, which almost every flu vaccine contains. The gradual accumulation of aluminum and mercury in the brain leads to cognitive dysfunction.

Myth 4: There are no harmful ingredients in vaccinations.

Flu vaccines consist primarily of 3 categories of ingredients. First there are viruses and cultured bacteria. The second ingredient is the way in which they can be cultivated. This includes aborted human fetal cells, chick embryos, pig blood, monkey kidney tissue, cowpox pus, and calf serum, and all of these foreign proteins get injected straight into your bloodstream. A bit repulsive just thinking about it, isn’t it? The flu shot also contains neutralizers, stabilizers, carrying agents and preservatives such as mercury, aluminum, and formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is something that is used for embalming the dead and is known to cause cancer. There is no amount of formaldehyde considered safe when injected into a living organism.

Myth 5: The Flu Shot works.

The flu shot could actually weaken your immune system and make you more likely to catch this virus. It has absolutely no value and should probably be avoided for your own safety. Not only is it loaded with toxic chemicals, but many people actually get the flu shortly after getting the shot, because it weakens their immune system instead of making it stronger like it is claimed to do.

Dr. Viera Scheibner, arguably one of the world's most respected scientists and scholars on vaccine medical data stated from her research and writings on vaccine science and history: "Ever since the turn of the (last) century, medical journals published dozens and dozens of articles demonstrating that injecting vaccines (can) cause anaphylaxis, meaning harmful, inappropriate immunological responses, which is also called sensitization. (This) increase(s) susceptibility to the disease which the vaccine is supposed to prevent, and to a host of related and other unrelated infections."

"We see it in vaccinated children within days, within two or three weeks. (Most of them) develop runny noses, ear infections, pneumonitis, (and) bronchiolitis. It is only a matter of degrees, which indicates immuno-suppression, (not immunity). It indicates the opposite. So I never use the word immunization because that is false advertising. It implies that vaccines immunize, which they don't. The correct term is either vaccination or sensitization."

In addition, "Vaccines (can) damage internal organs, particularly the pancreas," so everyone vaccinated, including for seasonal flu, is vulnerable to contracting severe "autoimmune diseases like diabetes," Addison's Disease, Arthritis, Asthma, Guillian-Barre Syndrome, Hepatitis, Lou Gehrig's Disease, Lupus, Multiple Sclerosis, Osteoporosis, Polio, and dozens of others.

Some can kill. Others produce a lifetime of disability and pain because autoimmune disease happens when the "body attacks itself," or more accurately "is attacked" by an unhealthy lifestyle, stress, and various harmful ingestible substances; that is, toxins in drugs, food, air, water, and other liquids. According to immunologist, Dr. Jesse Stoff, human health is compromised four ways:

-- by poor nutrition;

-- man-made environmental toxins;

-- disease-causing organisms and their toxins; and

-- immune system trauma from factors like x-ray radiation and stress.

Other factors include a lack of sleep and exercise, smoking, heavy alcohol consumption, and various excesses that throw the body out of balance, making it susceptible to a host of debilitating illnesses.

Conclusions

The Cochrane study found very little evidence to support even a small improvement in time off work. Even that finding needs to be put into the context of industry influence. The authors wrote:

This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies. The content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding.

"...industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies..."

"...reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin..."

"...there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions..."

Most assuredly, the "content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding"!

Even without taking into account the shoddiness of the studies in general, the authors were still hard put to find any benefit of any sort for influenza vaccinations in healthy people. At best, they found a small decrease in number of days off work. They did not find that the vaccinations had any benefit whatsoever in complications or mortality.

In spite of the limited reporting on adverse effects, the authors did find some, including 1.6 Guillain-Barré cases per million.

The question that must be asked is: How can influenza vaccinations be justified when there is virtually no benefit—not even the oft-cited dubious herd-immunity—and cases of severe harm are documented, in spite of disgustingly limited reporting of adverse effects?

It is long past time to end the travesty of jabbing adults and children without a shred of evidence showing real benefit in spite of trying to find it, and with evidence of crippling harm, in spite of trying to mask it.

http://preventdisease.com/news/10/121010_no_value_flu_vaccines.shtml