Uk Labour Fears As Migrants Go Home

[cells]

if you want those that are poor to have a better quility of life dont go chasing for higher wages or to limit imigration.

you need to go and target the cost of living, why are houses so expensive, why is rent so expensive, why is food so expensive, why is transport so expensive.

solving those will help the poor far more than stopping imigration or increasing minimium wage by a quid or two

take these steps and the poor benifit massively

+ remove the green belt

+ make planning laws far more lax

+ remove the current HNS system for one which is part paid (ie £5 a visit to the GP or A&E ect)

+ remove "free" transport for the old or children (hence reduce taxes by a corosponding amount)

+ allow people to opt out of the state pention system (ie not pay NI)

+ remove all fake jobs paid by us (ie enviromental agents being paid 100k+ for nothing, council heads being paid more than the PM ect)

things of that nature will help the poor far far more than any price controls will

[Nicolaj]

so, if you want to pay farmers 5x their current wage, it isnt as simple as kicking the imigrants out.

what will happe in reality is everyone will pay 5x more in food costs

exactly..no wonder brown is browned off

[Fudge]

wrong wrong wrong.

if you want to limit migration you HAVE TO ALSO LIMIT goods and services.

sure potato pickers will be paid £20PH but everyone else will be paying higher prices for food.

you cant have both, you cant say we will limit imigration but not limit goods and servicesw.

if you do your back to price controls and it will collapse in time

so, if you want to pay farmers 5x their current wage, it isnt as simple as kicking the imigrants out.

what will happe in reality is everyone will pay 5x more in food costs

I am not suggesting restricting the movement of labor. If Capital enjoys free movement then so should labor.

I am saying if as the claim states that the polish migrants are going back to Poland to work then the market then

tips in favor of the indigenous unskilled workforce, wages should go up and that would encourage many people

currently on welfare back to work. But the bosses, businesses and farmers don't like it when the market works against them in this way, they think they are entitled to cheap labor as some kind of right and will look for ways to

circumvent the market.

A lot of businesses would rather close down than pay workers a descent wage its against their nature.

[Salty]

I am not suggesting restricting the movement of labor. If Capital enjoys free movement then so should labor.

There are billions of people in the world whose living standards are significantly below what even the poorest people in the UK subsist on, presumably then you'd have no objection to them all coming here?

But the bosses, businesses and farmers don't like it when the market works against them in this way, they think they are entitled to cheap labor as some kind of right and will look for ways to

circumvent the market.

You're right there.

Flooding Western Europe with cheap labour through immigration is circumventing the market, IMO, in a deliberate attempt with malice aforethought to keep working class wages down. If the political elites get their way and allow Turkey into the EU, it will effectively be a policy of demographic genocide against Europeans.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Salty

[cells]

I am not suggesting restricting the movement of labor. If Capital enjoys free movement then so should labor.

I am saying if as the claim states that the polish migrants are going back to Poland to work then the market then

tips in favor of the indigenous unskilled workforce, wages should go up and that would encourage many people

currently on welfare back to work. But the bosses, businesses and farmers don't like it when the market works against them in this way, they think they are entitled to cheap labor as some kind of right and will look for ways to

circumvent the market.

A lot of businesses would rather close down than pay workers a descent wage its against their nature.

agree apart from bold, if a business is profitable it will stay open or sold to someone who will keep it open

[eric pebble]

So manual work that requires no qualifications should pay the same as a job behind a desk that might require qualifications?

No cockrobin! [ ! ] But I tell you what -- YOU try working and LIVING ON the minimum wage!! It is just an insult. And I am NO socialist. It is MERELY common sense -- AND COMMON DECENCY.

Edited March 30, 2008 by eric pebble

[cells]

There are billions of people in the world whose living standards are significantly below what even the poorest people in the UK subsist on, presumably then you'd have no objection to them all coming here?

yep as long as capital/ goods/ services can move in both directions.

it would mean our land is their land, but also their land is out land.

personally i would think it would benifit the UK massively if every single polish person was integrated into our society BUT in retrun we get their land (but they are now integrated so they would also have their land)

same with the "billions of poor", let them come, so long as we get their land

You're right there.

Flooding Western Europe with cheap labour through immigration is circumventing the market, IMO, in a deliberate attempt with malice aforethought to keep working class wages down. I

you cant ristrict labour but not ristrict capital/goods/services.

do you not think the uk has benifitted from cheap forign food? if we closed out borders to all food inports we would have far less choice, we would have shortgages and the cost would be FAR FAR higher. and like i said, you cant have labour ristrictions but free movement on the rest

f the political elites get their way and allow Turkey into the EU, it will effectively be a policy of demographic genocide against Europeans.

thats a whole other story.

western europe has a problem, a massive problem. An ageing population. We produce less than 2 children per woman which means if we had no imigration we would have a decreasing population and that causes problems. not to mention we have farr too many old people which we can not support unless our population increases.

so we have two choices. kill a lot of old people, which i think you agree would be wrong and no goverment would take that step

or we can inport yung people

the first wave was eastern europeans

the second wave will be the turks

if that isnt enough, there are lots of others we would welcome.

[babesagainstmachines]

You are all confusing the true meaning of words with their current implementations. Except that Injin is correct on Statism.

It's an interesting discussion nevertheless...

I think it's fair to say that none of these systems have ever really been tried properly. It's far too simplistic to say that capitalism is the best or socialism doesn't work because all implementations are some sort of bastardisation that's been put in place, and has incumbent powers who design the system to help maintain their own positions.

[Salty]

yep as long as capital/ goods/ services can move in both directions.

it would mean our land is their land, but also their land is out land.

personally i would think it would benifit the UK massively if every single polish person was integrated into our society BUT in retrun we get their land (but they are now integrated so they would also have their land)

same with the "billions of poor", let them come, so long as we get their land

I see, but you do realise that will never happen on this planet, right?

you cant ristrict labour but not ristrict capital/goods/services.

Sure you can. It's called policy. Trading freely with other countries doesn't mean their citizens have some God-given right to move here, or vice versa.

do you not think the uk has benifitted from cheap forign food? if we closed out borders to all food inports we would have far less choice, we would have shortgages and the cost would be FAR FAR higher. and like i said, you cant have labour ristrictions but free movement on the rest

Ah, yes you can. I certainly believe in free trade, but there is no logical reason to assume it necessitates inviting the world to move here.

western europe has a problem, a massive problem. An ageing population. We produce less than 2 children per woman which means if we had no imigration we would have a decreasing population and that causes problems. not to mention we have farr too many old people which we can not support unless our population increases.

so we have two choices. kill a lot of old people, which i think you agree would be wrong and no goverment would take that step

or we can inport yung people

Replacing Europeans with non-Europeans is genocide. Pure and simple. It's no more a "solution" to Western Europe's ageing demographics than killing a cancer patient is a "cure" for cancer.

Western Europe will face challenges through the drop in birthrate. But there is no rational reason to believe those challenges can't be addressed through the market, through technology, through individuals and communities voluntarily making necessary changes in their lifestyles. And there's no reason to believe the European birthrate won't increase on its own. There's certainly no imminent crisis prompting a mad rush to import tens of millions of uneducated young Muslims from South-West Asia.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Salty

[right_freds_dead]

They should be made to do it.

If they are too fat, then doing it would assist them to lose the weight.

If they are too stupid, it won't matter.

If they are too chavvy and just dont like hard work, take away all there benefits and give them no choice at all.

If they still dont and turn to crime, arrest them and as the other poster said, Farm Service.

ditto

Excellent.

If they don't do it, they shouldn't be allowed to eat.

ditto again.

they should......

make benefit claimants work at least one full day per week to EARN the benefit.

people on disability should be given different levels of work according to ability.

if your 'depressed', well a little light outdoor work will do you good.

crimes.....

3 assaults you get mandatory 10 years.

3 thefts you get mandatory 10 years.

3 drunk and disorderly - full 3 months.

prisons....

much stricter, cold, basic with blankets. food is basic but acceptable. just water - no beverages. no tv, no smoking, no pool tables, 23 hrs lockdown.

serve full sentence with 1/3 off for good record. glass walled visits once a week only 2 persons. and this is for ALL prisoners. not just lifers.

if you in for 10 days or 10 years you get the same horrible environment. no rehabilitation - thats up the individual to decide for themselves.

punishment based prisons.

[Injin]

ditto

ditto again.

they should......

make benefit claimants work at least one full day per week to EARN the benefit.

people on disability should be given different levels of work according to ability.

if your 'depressed', well a little light outdoor work will do you good.

crimes.....

3 assaults you get mandatory 10 years.

3 thefts you get mandatory 10 years.

3 drunk and disorderly - full 3 months.

prisons....

much stricter, cold, basic with blankets. food is basic but acceptable. just water - no beverages. no tv, no smoking, no pool tables, 23 hrs lockdown.

serve full sentence with 1/3 off for good record. glass walled visits once a week only 2 persons. and this is for ALL prisoners. not just lifers.

if you in for 10 days or 10 years you get the same horrible environment. no rehabilitation - thats up the individual to decide for themselves.

punishment based prisons.

Yeah, that'll work.

[crash2006]

ditto

ditto again.

they should......

make benefit claimants work at least one full day per week to EARN the benefit.

people on disability should be given different levels of work according to ability.

if your 'depressed', well a little light outdoor work will do you good.

you still dont see it do you?

[Fudge]

There are billions of people in the world whose living standards are significantly below what even the poorest people in the UK subsist on, presumably then you'd have no objection to them all coming here?

They wouldn't need to come to the UK for a decent standard of living if they could get it in their country of birth.

The standard of living in these countries will only rise when the workers fight for it like they are doing currently in China.

[right_freds_dead]

Yeah, that'll work.

id take back the disability work requirement, but id stand by the other stuff.

theres no punishment and no liability in society.

the prisons are a joke.

i had a sick relative and we all had to pay hospital car parks and pay for the persons sky tv. it cost £3 a day.

we spent on parking about £20 a day, and we did this for a year.

my mate went to prison for 6 months for robbery.

he had free sky tv, a gym all parking for visitors was free and when he came out he said it was a break.

there was no punishment.

it was no problem for him. they beefed up on the gym all day. smoked weed and cigs and was hanging around with other mates from the outside who were in at the same time.

it was alike a big club. the only punishment was the inconvenience. he wore his own clothes and trainers. posters. radio. a big doss. and so are benefits. i accept people may actually be better off on benefits. my brother is, but id like to see them at least work just one whole day a week for it doing up footpaths, removing graffiti and making at least some contribution for the tax they are taxing. ive been on benefits. i would have been very much ok to do this. it would at least cut some costs in the councils bills and so poll taxes. if they refuse to do it - lower benefits paid in food tokens.

[alexw]

if you want those that are poor to have a better quility of life dont go chasing for higher wages or to limit imigration.

you need to go and target the cost of living, why are houses so expensive, why is rent so expensive, why is food so expensive, why is transport so expensive.

solving those will help the poor far more than stopping imigration or increasing minimium wage by a quid or two

take these steps and the poor benifit massively

+ remove the green belt

+ make planning laws far more lax

+ remove the current HNS system for one which is part paid (ie £5 a visit to the GP or A&E ect)

+ remove "free" transport for the old or children (hence reduce taxes by a corosponding amount)

+ allow people to opt out of the state pention system (ie not pay NI)

+ remove all fake jobs paid by us (ie enviromental agents being paid 100k+ for nothing, council heads being paid more than the PM ect)

things of that nature will help the poor far far more than any price controls will

I agree partly with some of what you say. But the system is biased to increase the wealth and power of a few who then use that to accumulate more. This is the overriding factor which needs to be tackled, and is what causes the poor to be poor, and the middle class to edge slowly into being what used to be lower class in terms of spending power. This graph says it all.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/04/b.png

Nevermind the overall tax burden which again has been altered to hit most on those with lower incomes, which would put the lowest 10% of this graph into negative wage increases.

Edited March 30, 2008 by alexw

[right_freds_dead]

you still dont see it do you?

see what ?

is it SOOOO bad to work just one day for £50 and housing benefit ?

picking up litter ?

does that make me hitler or something.

Edited March 30, 2008 by right_freds_dead

[Fudge]

Work for the disabled is ok if you can get it.

The few businesses that actually employ a significant numbers of disabled like Remploy are actually closing down.

Disability firm to close 43 sites

[Injin]

Fred, nothing you said will work.

None of it.

[winkie]

they should......

make benefit claimants work at least one full day per week to EARN the benefit.

people on disability should be given different levels of work according to ability.

if your 'depressed', well a little light outdoor work will do you good.

crimes.....

3 assaults you get mandatory 10 years.

3 thefts you get mandatory 10 years.

3 drunk and disorderly - full 3 months.

prisons....

much stricter, cold, basic with blankets. food is basic but acceptable. just water - no beverages. no tv, no smoking, no pool tables, 23 hrs lockdown.

serve full sentence with 1/3 off for good record. glass walled visits once a week only 2 persons. and this is for ALL prisoners. not just lifers.

if you in for 10 days or 10 years you get the same horrible environment. no rehabilitation - thats up the individual to decide for themselves.

punishment based prisons.

Oh you are awful...but I like you.

[Nicolaj]

see what ?

is it SOOOO bad to work just one day for £50 and housing benefit ?

picking up litter ?

does that make me hitler or something.

I think its a good idea...Im sure the tories said something about doing this a few months ago.

[right_freds_dead]

Fred, nothing you said will work.

None of it.

i know. (sigh)

Oh you are awful...but I like you.

your showing your age...

[cells]

Replacing Europeans with non-Europeans is genocide. Pure and simple. It's no more a "solution" to Western Europe's ageing demographics than killing a cancer patient is a "cure" for cancer.

it is a solution, and calling it genocide is retarded at best!

Western Europe will face challenges through the drop in birthrate. But there is no rational reason to believe those challenges can't be addressed through the market, through technology, through individuals and communities voluntarily making necessary changes in their lifestyles.

currently the average family in the uk pays £40,000 in tax. yep £40,000

now remove 10 million worers and replace them with 10million pensioners.

let me tell you, the goverment only has a few choices

increase tax dramaticly for those yung working folk (not possible without civil unrest)

kill the old (not gona happen)

deport the old (not gona happen)

import imigrants, yungs ones perfered (can be done easily and cheaply, white christians perfered (poles))

so which one would you do if you where PM?

answer me! its all well saying f*uck the imigrants, how will you support your population when there are more people over 50 than underr 50?

And there's no reason to believe the European birthrate won't increase on its own. There's certainly no imminent crisis prompting a mad rush to import tens of millions of uneducated young Muslims from South-West Asia.

perhaps the european birthrate will increase, but it takes 20 years for those babies to start working.

Not to mention a massive cost in taking care of them, in brining them up, in tax credits, in schools, in medicine and doctors, in housing ect. It doesnt cost anything to import a 20 year old from poland/turkey

and your wrong, there is an imminent rush, the baby boomers are starting to retire, we need to support them somehow.

unless you want to legalise rape and make abortions illegal you ant gona increase the birthrate by much in such a short time (not to mention all the cost in bringing up yung ones)

[crash2006]

see what ?

is it SOOOO bad to work just one day for £50 and housing benefit ?

picking up litter ?

does that make me hitler or something.

Rents play an important part in this whole mess, given the unemployed work would reduce work for others in that field of work.

[right_freds_dead]

Rents play an important part in this whole mess, given the unemployed work would reduce work for others in that field of work.

well i walk on a lot of footpaths and see a lot of graffiti and see a lot of litter, so perhaps we can give these other workers some extra help, since they dont seem to be able to manage on £1100 per year poll tax. perhaps they could empty the wheelie bins on the alternative week ?

or become our nations recycling 'wombles'

[alexw]

it is a solution, and calling it genocide is retarded at best!

currently the average family in the uk pays £40,000 in tax. yep £40,000

now remove 10 million worers and replace them with 10million pensioners.

let me tell you, the goverment only has a few choices

increase tax dramaticly for those yung working folk (not possible without civil unrest)

kill the old (not gona happen)

deport the old (not gona happen)

import imigrants, yungs ones perfered (can be done easily and cheaply, white christians perfered (poles))

so which one would you do if you where PM?

answer me! its all well saying f*uck the imigrants, how will you support your population when there are more people over 50 than underr 50?

perhaps the european birthrate will increase, but it takes 20 years for those babies to start working.

Not to mention a massive cost in taking care of them, in brining them up, in tax credits, in schools, in medicine and doctors, in housing ect. It doesnt cost anything to import a 20 year old from poland/turkey

and your wrong, there is an imminent rush, the baby boomers are starting to retire, we need to support them somehow.

unless you want to legalise rape and make abortions illegal you ant gona increase the birthrate by much in such a short time (not to mention all the cost in bringing up yung ones)

Again your ideas end up subsidizing businesses from the true costs of employment. Either wages need to go up so people can afford to have families, or living costs need to go down for the same.