Protest March To London ?

[King of the castle]

i spend my money on 'luxuries' as its paper money. like lira. worthless.

im standing up for the postman, shop worker and joe average. sure. i can buy something trashy and get on the ladder at all costs, throwing caution to the interest winds and praying my job holds steady for a further 30 years (lifetime). you keep selling me on that. if i can just about do it on 40k (btw im 36) i know anybody below my wage hasnt a hope in hell.

i have alot to lose from anarchy, so i suppose im not an anarchist. im more of an angry citizen penned in and waiting for the social breakdown.

who is going to deliver your letters when the city is empty except for 'professional couples'.

whos going to put your fires out and arrest your burgulars. estate agents.?

this is complete madness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, well if you had started the thread on this subject, I think you would have gained much more support (me included) however you didn't it was plainly about yourself and how badly done to you were/are.

Please don't spin this around as it was I who brought the key worker issue into this thread (and sympathy for them) in the first place.

Anyway now that we've establised that you have nothing really to complain about does anyone know why we don't get more key workers posting on here?

nurses/cops/firemen etc where are you?......It is yourselves IMO who should have the voice on here, not 36 year old fairly succesful people who like their cars more than their houses.

[ianupton]

And with the help of Rightmove you've amply demonstrated, KOTC, that if you live in Wigan, you can afford a house on 3 x salary + 10% deposit if you earn less than £10k.  It's the poor devils in Cornwall and other second home paradises I feel sorry for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BLUELADY:

let me profile you.

your between 29 and 34. have 1 child. your husband has a semi professional job. you work part time semi professionally and drive a renault clio. your husband has a 3 series and this is his 2nd marriage. you live an expensive town in a 3 bed semi not that far from your parents. you bought in 91 and again in 96/7. so far you have no teenagers about your household. i would say your child/ren are under 12. you have a comfortable mortage to wage ratio. have mild credit card debt and take regular holidays.

give in 6 years when your kids cant leave home and theres extreme voilence and vandalism on the street. public services are failing and the government and bofe cant control rising interest rates.

i suspect your posts will be of a different flavor. open your eyes to the future.

[Mr Tickle]

Of course it is - relative to another tin of beans.  If you look at house prices in Wigan they're almost giving them away, relative to virtually anywhere else in the UK, they represent fantastic value for money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Houses in Wigan have always been cheap in relative terms to the rest of the country ?

Now they are vastly over-inflated, compared to what there true value is, whats the average wage in Wigan?

About half that of London at a guess, its all relative you know!

[Bluelady]

BLUELADY:

let me profile you.

your between 29 and 34. have 1 child. your husband has a semi professional job. you live an expensive town not that far from your parents. you bought in 91 and again in 96/7. so far you have no teenagers about your household. i would say your child/ren and under 12. you have a comfortable mortage to wage ratio. have mild credit card debt and take regular holidays.

give in 6 years when your kids cant leave home and theres extreme voilence and vandalism on the street. public services are failing and the government and bofe cant control rising interest rates.

i suspect your posts will be of a different flavor. open your eyes to the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm 51 and have a 30 year old son who left home eight years ago, I also have step children aged 21, 15 and 13 (yes, my husband's second marriage, my third), I bought as you say for the first time in 91 (when I was 38, just to save you working it out), sold that in 95, sold again in 96 and finally moved to the current house in 99.

I have no credit card debt, in fact I make money out of credit card lenders and - like just about everyone I know struggled when I bought my first house which, as you can see, was when I was older than you are and at a time when interest rates were more than twice as high as they are now.

I drive a 7 year old Hyundai Coupe, which I love to bits and will drive into the ground - or at least until it stops pinning me to the back of the seat when I accelerate. Mr BL isn't allowed a BMW or a Merc because they're driven by complete tossers.

Never make assumptions about other people - you just end up looking a complete tit.

[King of the castle]

King Of The Castle,

From your beloved telegraph...

Research carried out by National Savings and Investments reveals that while wages have increased by an average of 79 per cent in the past 10 years, house prices have gone up by a massive 180 per cent.

Don't forget though, debt repayments were another 37% more expensive ten years ago.

[Guest Working Class Lad]

im glad i found this site. i am so sick of being sold down the river by housing greed and madness. i earn 40k + and i cant find even the grottiest house in wigan to buy. its crazy and ive had enough of this bullsh*t.

why dont we organise a protest march to london ? use your vote. vote tony out. lifes worse than thatcher and thats saying something.

60,000 new affordable homes in 5 years - what a joke.

no ban on buy to let mortgages. ???

its out of control and being ignored by this government and also you might note - the opposition. no one dare say anything.

something has to be done. what are your kids going to do ? live at home until their 55 ?

never in modern history has a man done 40 hours work to live in a bedsit. everybodys so weak. i am so angry.

isnt anyone else angry with 'new labour' ?????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have no problem affording a house. I bet you have a BMW,

you do coke/crack and are middle class ?

Have you tried to buy a property on 12k a year.

What do you spend you money on ?

Bloody socialist

[ianupton]

You have no problem affording a house. I bet you have a BMW,

you do coke/crack and are middle class ?

Have you tried to buy a property on 12k a year.

What do you spend you money on ?

Bloody socialist

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nah. im the son of a coal miner. im self employed. i dont have a bmw but i have a mercedes. i despise cocaine and people that use it, though with you bringing up that subject makes me think you know something about that. after all, its a mainly working class drug these days.

i was once on 8k a year. i didnt play the matyr. i have been ok with a terrace in wigan for that job. now im caining it in i want something decent for my money.

so you can pack away the 'im a working class lad' bit.

i think we all work. you can be the socialist. i just want equality in housing.

my money. its in the stock market and in savings. not all of us make money and then bling up a coke lifestyle. though it sounds like something you might be interested in. for me im sensible enough to be hiding it away. i dont need a new sofa from DFS for my rented flat-hole and i dont use credit of any kind. im living on about 150-200 a week. the rest is stashed.

[Guest pioneer31]

Marching against a popular government,

what's your definition of popular? Alienating every section of society?

Tone is back in, because people for the most part are happy with New Labour and can see through the doomsters and Media crap.

the british public as a whole are dull witted and easily conned. That's why they've bought into the HPI and why they will re-elect this sham of a govt.

Not everyone in the country is a hard up FTB.

Oh right,so they don't matter then, along with pensioners, unemployed, students, people against the Iraq war etc etc.

I'M ALL RIGHT JACK?

Stop whinging.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

stop trolling

[Casual Observer]

  Mr BL isn't allowed a BMW or a Merc because they're driven by complete tossers.

Never make assumptions about other people - you just end up looking a complete tit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bluelady read those 2 sentences again! I don't know....Women!

[ianupton]

nice one casual observer. very classy, very classy. great use of colour.

[Jayne The Payne]

I would guess that what ianupton means is that he is aware that his earnings are above average but that he is being expected to pay say £100k for something that his £15k p.a. neighbour bought for ***k all a few years ago!

ianupton is thinking b******s to that and I can't say I blame him 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Give ianupton a break: he's admitted in response to urban_hymn's post that he COULD buy but doesn't feel the current prices are justified.

You lot really do need to get your arguements straight.  This thread started with the unaffordability of buying in Wigan on £40k a year. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem with Bluelady, KOTC and other bulls is that they CANNOT UNDERSTAND why someone who COULD buy an overvalued asset WILL NOT BUY it simply because they feel it doesn't make financial sense.

Read this carefully: Sentiment is turning the other way. People no longer feel they have to jump on the rollercoaster. There is no more fear that the market is going to go up for evermore. Recent data shows that the market is on the way down and houses will in time get back to their historical trend level (before going for another boom, very likely). People are no longer willing to buy overvalued assets. They will wait.

TIMING is CRUCIAL when making the biggest purchase in your entire life.

[beerhunter]

Bluelady,

For once, I agree with you. Not because there might or might not be affordable housing in a particular area, but because anyone earning 40k has no cause for any financial complaint whatsoever.

If you earn 40k and still can't buy you CAN rent an extremely agreeable property for less than a third of your disposable income. If you have a partner with just half your salary you can pool recources and rent a vast and luxurious home.

However, here in Cornwall, where people actually do work quite hard for an average salary of around 14k, it really IS almost impossible to buy or rent.

VacantPossession

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

VacantPossession I don't disagree with your comments about Cornwall.

However I do disagree with your "anyone earning 40k has no cause for any financial complaint whatsoever", because prices/demand vary.

Locally the average wage is around £30k.. a commuter town with some people earning city wages, which distorts the wage local working people get.

I personally earn more than the average (by a bit more than a third).. but the cheapest house is £225k.. ie 5.25 times my salary and 7.5 times average.. this is for the cheapest house on sale today at rightmove.

Yes, I rent.. and for 1/3 salary after tax I could just about rent a 2 bed flat.

Yes Cornwall has it bad.. but so does parts of the south east.

[JonoP]

Right, just to add my thoughts........

£40K is not a lot. I live in the South East and earn about £55K Basic, plus MAYBE between £5K & £30K commission. I am 31 and unfortunately, although I make reasonable money now, when I started with my current employer, I made £21K - which was just about enough to break even. My wages have risen at approx the same rates as property prices.....

So, sounds like a lot of wages….

I rent a flat at the moment. It was purchased for £132K in August 2003 and would now fetch £155K. I pay £725PM rent. It is a small 2 bed flat in a block of 32. These flats were going for £80K 5 years ago.

My take home pay is approx £2300

So, my current outgoings are:

Expense Amount

Rent 725

Car 312.3

Car Insurance 51.87

Telephone 13

Home Insurance 13.53

Electricity 35

Council Tax 100

TV License 10.49

Credit Card 200

Food 150

Savings 300

Clothes/House Stuff 100

total 2011.19

That leaves about £280PM for socialising, treating my partner, holidays etc. Now I know could get a cheaper car etc but as I do a travelling sales role I need a reasonably smart reliable car (I drive a Mini Cooper purchased in 2002). I have to have a new car as part of my salary is car allowance, and it is conditional on the fact that I have a decent car…..

If I purchased my flat, it would cost, £906.11 PM (at 5.0% PA), which would leave me with about £108 per month. I do save £300 per month – but that is my safety blanket – IT sales jobs are hardly secure and my savings are my get out of jail card if I loose my job……my savings will service any outstanding debts

So, my options are

•Buy a flat now, and have no money. If the flat goes down in value, I am in negative equity with no way out.

•Continue renting, save £300PCM towards a deposit (plus any bonuses) and potentially buy a house in 3 years time with a £50K deposit. If I did this, my repayments would be £613PCM. That is a difference of £87,900 over the full term of the mortgage. It will however cost me £26100 to rent for 3 years. Thus saving for a deposit for 3 years would save me £61800. I also have nearly 3 times as much spending money each month.

The first option is only worthwhile if property continues to rise – otherwise I will be stuck in a small flat with a debt I may or may not be able to service.

If the market stays flat, I save £62K

If the house prices decrease – I save £62K plus get a larger house for my money.

Please can the bulls (KOTC, LAUREJOHN etc) explain why I should purchase rather than rent?

Incidentally, in the town where I live, only 25% of income earners earn more than £25K. I REALLY do not know how the average Joe affords a house…..

[Guest muttley]

ianupton...I have read this thread with interest,and would like to add a few points.

25 years ago my,then,teenage brother bought a house in Wigan.It was a small 3 bed (actually 2 bed + boxroom) semi.He was a police constable,a typical FTB.

The same house today is on the market at 120k!

So to buy the same house today a FTB,with a deposit of 12k,would need to be earning 30k+......in Wigan.

One thing that has struck me as different from this boom,as opposed to the last,is the near parity between NW prices and SE prices.

BlueLady,I have not looked at the 160k property in Norley Hall,Kitt Green,but I know the estate.You would not aspire to live there.Simply doing a search for properties in an area you know nothing of is going to give a false picture.Wigan is a former mining town.There are parts that are nice,and parts that are struggling.The same is true of parts of the NE,Notts and the midlands.The fact that house prices have doubled in 3 years in these areas demonstrates that the whole charade is based on sentiment.If the sentiment shifts,these areas will suffer most.

[Bluelady]

ianupton...I have read this thread with interest,and would like to add a few points.

25 years ago my,then,teenage brother bought a house in Wigan.It was a small 3 bed (actually 2 bed + boxroom) semi.He was a police constable,a typical FTB.

The same house today is on the market at 120k!

So to buy the same house today a FTB,with a deposit of 12k,would need to be earning 30k+......in Wigan.

One thing that has struck me as different from this boom,as opposed to the last,is the near parity between NW prices and SE prices.

BlueLady,I have not looked at the 160k property in Norley Hall,Kitt Green,but I know the estate.You would not aspire to live there.Simply doing a search for properties in an area you know nothing of is going to give a false picture.Wigan is a former mining town.There are parts that are nice,and parts that are struggling.The same is true of parts of the NE,Notts and the midlands.The fact that house prices have doubled in 3 years in these areas demonstrates that the whole charade is based on sentiment.If the sentiment shifts,these areas will suffer most.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It isn't on an estate, it's a beautiful house in open countryside. Do a Rightmove search and have a look for yourself.

[Guest The dude]

You lot really do need to get your arguements straight.  This thread started with the unaffordability of buying in Wigan on £40k a year.  It's been amply demonstrated that on that income, you could actually buy a very nice house in or around Wigan on a conservative 3.5 x income mortgage with a £10k deposit.  Which is affordable by anyone's standards.

Unaffordability is people living in London and other expensive parts of the country on average incomes who haven't a snowball's chance in hell of buying anywhere at the moment.  They're the people who I consider deserve my sympathy, not people who can afford to buy but, for whatever reason, won't because they have delusions of grandeur.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"They're the people who I consider deserve my sympathy, not people who can afford to buy but, for whatever reason, won't because they have delusions of grandeur".

Whoa!!...I almost fainted just then...BL actually sympathises with people! Nice one BL...Are you sure you're alright? (concerned look)

[Guest The dude]

I'm 51 and have a 30 year old son who left home eight years ago, I also have step children aged 21, 15 and 13 (yes, my husband's second marriage, my third), I bought as you say for the first time in 91 (when I was 38, just to save you working it out), sold that in 95, sold again in 96 and finally moved to the current house in 99. 

I have no credit card debt, in fact I make money out of credit card lenders and - like just about everyone I know struggled when I bought my first house which, as you can see, was when I was older than you are and at a time when interest rates were more than twice as high as they are now.

I drive a 7 year old Hyundai Coupe, which I love to bits and will drive into the ground - or at least until it stops pinning me to the back of the seat when I accelerate.  Mr BL isn't allowed a BMW or a Merc because they're driven by complete tossers.

Never make assumptions about other people - you just end up looking a complete tit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

" (yes, my husband's second marriage, my third),"

BL..so that's where you got all that money from - DIVORCE SETTLEMENTS...now the truth emerges. And you have the bloody cheek to lambast ftb's who haven't got a deposit to but their first home. Maybe we should all get married...and then divorce each other.

[Casual Observer]

" (yes, my husband's second marriage, my third),"

BL..so that's where you got all that money from - DIVORCE SETTLEMENTS...now the truth emerges. And you have the bloody cheek to lambast ftb's who haven't got a deposit to but their first home.  Maybe we should all get married...and then divorce each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I loved her last 2 sentences - All BMW and Merc drivers are tossers - but never make assumptions about people!

I drive a BMW -she just made one hell of an assumption about me!

[Bluelady]

" (yes, my husband's second marriage, my third),"

BL..so that's where you got all that money from - DIVORCE SETTLEMENTS...now the truth emerges. And you have the bloody cheek to lambast ftb's who haven't got a deposit to but their first home.  Maybe we should all get married...and then divorce each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah right. Both my first husbands were paupers, divorced the first time and got £20 per month maintenance for my son who was then four and no alimony, continued living in rented accommodation for the next 12 years.

Met husband no 2 five years after buying my own house, with my own money and eventually kicked him out because I refused to keep a loser any longer. Met current Mr BL and we put down the deposit on our house from the proceeds of the houses we sold, I supplied more than 50%.

My financial position is down to me and nobody else - no inheritances, no handouts, no money from any other source than the money I've earned, including the time when I had two jobs to pay the rent and keep food on the table and other periods when I cleaned other people's houses to pay for my son to go to playgroup.

My taste in men when I was younger was complete rubbish - and I compounded that by only ever choosing the ones without two ha'pennies to rub together!

[Marina]

No such thing as "nice newbuild in a nice town", it was a 2 bed terraced Victorian house, with considerably more class and style than any new build.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another person who knows nothing about construction. Class? Style? Lots of Victorian terraces are built straight on the mud with just 4" walls between the houses. And often built to a density modern planners would die for. Front door on the street, no front garden, or 10' if you're lucky. I don't think much of modern boxes but I've lived in both and I know which one I prefer.

[Bluelady]

Another person who knows nothing about construction. Class? Style? Lots of Victorian terraces are built straight on the mud with just 4" walls between the houses. And often built to a density modern planners would die for. Front door on the street, no front garden, or 10' if you're lucky. I don't think much of modern boxes but I've lived in both and I know which one I prefer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't need to know anything about construction to know what kind of house I prefer and I like Victorian terraces. I've owned three and all of them had front gardens. Each to their own.

[Marina]

Anyway, the bottom line is - get the march going. Notify all the national newspapers there is going to be a march/demonstration in London against unaffordable property prices. Tell them young people from all over the country are going to attend, tell them the government needs to do something so that property speculators don't force a whole generation into childlessness etc.

How to organise it? Word of mouth and the web.

You need to create a web site where people can get information (this one is too slow-witted to take this up and actually do something - still no First Time Buyers section!!) - you need to set a date and time - just before the election would be good - and you need some people with you to share the load - answer questions etc.

To get the word out? I'll undertake to let every young person I know in the age range 25 to 35 that cannot afford property and despair of ever getting started - that's four of my nieces and nephews - and I am sure they will let all their friends know - and if they let all their friends know etc. You must use the power of the press - any coverage you can get will be invaluable. They would actually like the story - "Young people all over the country are mobilising to march on London to protest at house prices that mean they will never be able to afford a property." etc.

Marches - protest - disorder - the media love it. Think of all the commotion over the petrol price protests a few years ago. Boy did the government sit up and take note then.

Get on with it. DO IT! Don't listen to the bull w@nkers on here who are terrifed they are going to lose their ill-gotten gains. Protest!

[VacantPossession]

Right, just to add my thoughts........

£40K is not a lot. I live in the South East and earn about £55K Basic, plus MAYBE between £5K & £30K commission. I am 31 and unfortunately, although I make reasonable money now, when I started with my current employer, I made £21K - which was just about enough to break even. My wages have risen at approx the same rates as property prices.....

So, sounds like a lot of wages….

I rent a flat at the moment. It was purchased for £132K in August 2003 and would now fetch £155K. I pay £725PM rent. It is a small 2 bed flat in a block of 32. These flats were going for £80K 5 years ago.

My take home pay is approx £2300

So, my current outgoings are:

Expense Amount

Rent 725

Car 312.3

Car Insurance 51.87

Telephone 13

Home Insurance 13.53

Electricity 35

Council Tax 100

TV License 10.49

Credit Card 200

Food 150

Savings 300

Clothes/House Stuff 100

total 2011.19

That leaves about £280PM for socialising, treating my partner, holidays etc. Now I know could get a cheaper car etc but as I do a travelling sales role I need a reasonably smart reliable car (I drive a Mini Cooper purchased in 2002). I have to have a new car as part of my salary is car allowance, and it is conditional on the fact that I have a decent car…..

If I purchased my flat, it would cost, £906.11 PM (at 5.0% PA), which would leave me with about £108 per month. I do save £300 per month – but that is my safety blanket – IT sales jobs are hardly secure and my savings are my get out of jail card if I loose my job……my savings will service any outstanding debts

So, my options are

•Buy a flat now, and have no money. If the flat goes down in value, I am in negative equity with no way out.

•Continue renting, save £300PCM towards a deposit (plus any bonuses) and potentially buy a house in 3 years time with a £50K deposit. If I did this, my repayments would be £613PCM. That is a difference of £87,900 over the full term of the mortgage. It will however cost me £26100 to rent for 3 years. Thus saving for a deposit for 3 years would save me £61800. I also have nearly 3 times as much spending money each month.

The first option is only worthwhile if property continues to rise – otherwise I will be stuck in a small flat with a debt I may or may not be able to service.

If the market stays flat, I save £62K

If the house prices decrease – I save £62K plus get a larger house for my money.

Please can the bulls (KOTC, LAUREJOHN etc) explain why I should purchase rather than rent?

Incidentally, in the town where I live, only 25% of income earners earn more than £25K. I REALLY do not know how the average Joe affords a house…..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pond,

Courageous of you to list your monthly outgoings. However in that list are at least two items which are in fact part of your disposable income, but you list them as though they were living expenses:

Credit Card: £200

Savings: £300

If you are paying £200 per month on credit purchases, then presumably that £200 was something you spent money on in order to produce the debt. That sum should therefore not be added to your standing expenses.

You have listed £300 savings as a standing expenses, whereas surely this is again part of your disposable income after living expenses which you have chosen to divert into savings. That can't be counted as a living expense.

So in fact your disposable income is £500 higher than you declare it to be and is a total of £780, not £280.

However I take your point that on apparently high salaries it is still difficult to buy in your particular area, and I suppose that is partly why salaries around and in London have an added premium.

All the same, a residue of over £700 doesn't seem at all bad to me given the rent you pay.

VP

[Mr Tickle]

I loved her last 2 sentences - All BMW and Merc drivers are tossers - but never make assumptions about people!

I drive a BMW -she just made one hell of an assumption about me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least I'm not alone

Did your BMW arrive with a section in the manual about how to correctly use the two fingered salute

[Bluelady]

No assumptions. Let me amend what I said to "Based on the evidence I have observed, it is my belief that all BMW and Merc drivers are tossers" - that do for you pedants?