At The End Of The Day, Hpc Bears Still Want To Buy Houses

[Londoner]

Reading this thread

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...showtopic=33887

it struck me that sometimes people associate the bearish, pro-HPC viewpoint as being somehow anti home ownership and pro-renting. Every now and then you see posts that dismiss the idea that owning a home is better than renting, sometimes citing other European countries as examples. These posts tend to go unchallenged by the bears whilst suggestions that there are real benefits to owning your own place (or indeed investing in property) are vigorously refuted. This creates an illusion that those who want to see a HPC have opted out of the whole property-owning concept.

I now realise that nothing could be further from the truth! HPC BEARS WANT TO BUY HOUSES TOO.

If anything, people who fortell a HPC most loudly are actually showing their strong desire to buy property - they just want to buy a lower price than is currently available.

Am I wrong? Can anyone here who really wants to see HPC honestly say that if/when the crash happens, they will have no interest in buying property?

In fact, what's clear to me now is that the primarily motivating force behind the pro-HPC movement is the desire to buy property. It really does hsow how strong the demand is out there - amongst bears, amongst bulls... amongst everyone.

[Guest The_Oldie]

When it makes financial sense to buy, which it will in a few years, I'll buy.

No rush though, I'm in no hurry to throw my hard earned money down the drain.

[Guest grumpy-old-man]

Reading this thread

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...showtopic=33887

it struck me that sometimes people associate the bearish, pro-HPC viewpoint as being somehow anti home ownership and pro-renting. Every now and then you see posts that dismiss the idea that owning a home is better than renting, sometimes citing other European countries as examples. These posts tend to go unchallenged by the bears whilst suggestions that there are real benefits to owning your own place (or indeed investing in property) are vigorously refuted. This creates an illusion that those who want to see a HPC have opted out of the whole property-owning concept.

I now realise that nothing could be further from the truth! HPC BEARS WANT TO BUY HOUSES TOO.

If anything, people who fortell a HPC most loudly are actually showing their strong desire to buy property - they just want to buy a lower price than is currently available.

Am I wrong? Can anyone here who really wants to see HPC honestly say that if/when the crash happens, they will have no interest in buying property?

In fact, what's clear to me now is that the primarily motivating force behind the pro-HPC movement is the desire to buy property. It really does hsow how strong the demand is out there - amongst bears, amongst bulls... amongst everyone.

I am a bear, but I have a very healthy interest in property & will be buying a few houses in the next 4-5 years

[iLegallyBlonde]

Yeah, we want to buy a home I think that's the difference.

[Firangi]

Reading this thread

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...showtopic=33887

it struck me that sometimes people associate the bearish, pro-HPC viewpoint as being somehow anti home ownership and pro-renting. Every now and then you see posts that dismiss the idea that owning a home is better than renting, sometimes citing other European countries as examples. These posts tend to go unchallenged by the bears whilst suggestions that there are real benefits to owning your own place (or indeed investing in property) are vigorously refuted. This creates an illusion that those who want to see a HPC have opted out of the whole property-owning concept.

I now realise that nothing could be further from the truth! HPC BEARS WANT TO BUY HOUSES TOO.

If anything, people who fortell a HPC most loudly are actually showing their strong desire to buy property - they just want to buy a lower price than is currently available.

Am I wrong? Can anyone here who really wants to see HPC honestly say that if/when the crash happens, they will have no interest in buying property?

In fact, what's clear to me now is that the primarily motivating force behind the pro-HPC movement is the desire to buy property. It really does hsow how strong the demand is out there - amongst bears, amongst bulls... amongst everyone.

I own two houses, though not in this country. Both of my houses have gone up significantly in value ( against fiat currency) over last few years which I am not smug about. I don't want to see crashes, recession, depression etc. But I want to see house prices coming back to reality world over. I have no desire to buy anyother house in near future.

[ParticleMan]

In fact, what's clear to me now is that the primarily motivating force behind the pro-HPC movement is the desire to buy property. It really does hsow how strong the demand is out there - amongst bears, amongst bulls... amongst everyone.

With woolly headed nonsense like that being swallowed hook line and sinker by some it's little surprise that there's a healthy career to be made in marketing, selling fear and greed in equal part to those with a too-loose grip on their wallets (and reality).

You've been distracted, you've been had, you've been sold a pup - you're focussing on the thing, the object - and not on the fundamental need and basic human right.

The basic desire is security of tenure, for social stability, an environment within which to procreate and raise young to maturity; four walls, a roof, a deed in a registry issued by the representative government of the day, a standing army of brokers, lawyers, and sales assistants - just a capital intensive, highly illiquid proxy for this; when these rights can be freely traded - without transferring the underlying physical asset - property ownership will become a utility market with a correspondingly pedestrian, if stable, yield.

Are people paying today's prices achieving their goals of security of tenure? Would people who presently have satisfactory security of tenure and are also not owners of property, bid any more than their current outgoing for ownership? What effect do you think this will have on settlement prices? Would these same people take advantage of a bargain, where their current outgoing is reduced, or, where their current outgoing creates additional security of tenure? Do you think that this net desire toward bargain hunting will create a trend vector?

Your mania is not shared by all.

[Guest grumpy-old-man]

I am a bear, but I have a very healthy interest in property & will be buying a few houses in the next 4-5 years

ooopppss, does this make me a bit of a capitalist then

I rent my only owned house out in France to a local French family, so this helps the local economy. I was very specific about this to the local immobilier. We also could have charged 600 euros a month rent but opted to only charge 500 euros a month & also did a load of extra work to the house & garden that wasn't required. We did this to make the house look nice but it hasn't really enhanced the selling price, it has just made the house nicer to live in

terrified, you had me feeling guilty reading my first reply about wanting to own multiple properties

if you had to have a landlord or rented property next to yours, who would you rather have ? me or some greedy, couldn't give a **** developer ?

[PogoLocky]

[quote name='grumpy-old-man' date='Aug 12 2006, 07:42 PM' post='427721

terrified, you had me feeling guilty reading my first reply about wanting to own multiple properties

if you had to have a landlord or rented property next to yours, who would you rather have ? me or some greedy, couldn't give a **** developer ?

Wouldnt we have plenty to talk about in the garden!

[papyrus]

why is it that house price bulls can never understand that affordable

housing is better for society!

lower price = less debt ...it really is that simple.

whatever argument the bulls throw at this debate is always a poor

charade for their own personal greed.

[Immigrant]

Speaking for myself, it is not a question of debating what would be better for society, but what is likely to happen.

(I wouldn't call myself a bull but I am not convinced that a massive crash is about to happen - and that counts as being bulllish around here).

[PogoLocky]

why is it that house price bulls can never understand that affordable

housing is better for society!

lower price = less debt ...it really is that simple.

whatever argument the bulls throw at this debate is always a poor

charade for their own personal greed.

Quite simple if somebody bought a house for £120.000 after a year or so and wanted or needed to buy a bigger house. That bigger house cost £175,000. Houses in their street were selling for £135,000. Why would they want to land thereselves with more debt on their next purchase by selling there own house to help others by having less debt?

[iLegallyBlonde]

ooopppss, does this make me a bit of a capitalist then

I rent my only owned house out in France to a local French family, so this helps the local economy. I was very specific about this to the local immobilier. We also could have charged 600 euros a month rent but opted to only charge 500 euros a month & also did a load of extra work to the house & garden that wasn't required. We did this to make the house look nice but it hasn't really enhanced the selling price, it has just made the house nicer to live in

terrified, you had me feeling guilty reading my first reply about wanting to own multiple properties

if you had to have a landlord or rented property next to yours, who would you rather have ? me or some greedy, couldn't give a **** developer ?

If you think I'm going to say anything to make you feel better you are very much mistaken.

I'd rather have a nice couple living next door to me with a few kids the same age as mine, who takes pride in their HOME and that I have something in common with. But as it is it'll probably be rented to a couple of chav's with their little Brooklyn and Chardonnay teaching my kids new words and paying no rent at all whilst hubby and I work from dawn til dusk to pay for our shoe box.

I hope you do feel guilty, you've seen the impact on people's lives this time around and yet as soon as there's a crash you plan to do the same again, i don't have enough hours in the day spare to tell you what i think of that behaviour.

hth

Anna

Mother of 3.5 kids and stuck bloody renting :angry:

[Guest grumpy-old-man]

[/b]

If you think I'm going to say anything to make you feel better you are very much mistaken.

I'd rather have a nice couple living next door to me with a few kids the same age as mine, who takes pride in their HOME and that I have something in common with. But as it is it'll probably be rented to a couple of chav's with their little Brooklyn and Chardonnay teaching my kids new words and paying no rent at all whilst hubby and I work from dawn til dusk to pay for our shoe box.

I hope you do feel guilty, you've seen the impact on people's lives this time around and yet as soon as there's a crash you plan to do the same again, i don't have enough hours in the day spare to tell you what i think of that behaviour.

hth

Anna

Mother of 3.5 kids and stuck bloody renting :angry:

Hi Anna, I have not owned more than 1 property for about 15 years. I understand your feelings very much as we have rented when we were younger & had a few problems over the years with neighbours, which I have always managed to resolve

anyway, I knew I would get a pasting by posting that reply, but at least I was honest.

I agree with you btw, but if you were in a position to buy a house then buy the one next to it would you ?

I am renting in the UK at the moment btw, & I haven't got loads of cash, in fact far from it, but what I have got is mine & paid for.

I wish you every luck in the future & when the prices are 40% lower in 3-4 years time, I hope you can afford to buy your dream home

Edited August 12, 2006 by grumpy-old-man

[iLegallyBlonde]

Would i buy a house to rent out ?

The short answer is no, i found myself an accidential landlady once, i'd already bought my house when i met my husband and he had one too, we weren't 100% sure about each other so i let mine out whilst i lived with him, all was fine for 12 months then i made the mitake of using a lettings agency and it was downhill from there onwards. Never again.

We will buy soon one way or another and i pray it'll be for 40% less than today but you haven't answered why you would want to set this whole sorry cycle back again by buying multiple properties if/when there's a crash ?

[JonoP]

God it aint rocket science. I am currently buying a car. If I thought it would be 30% cheaper next year I would wait until then. The same applies to houses, which is why I am waiting (ok, ok, maybe not 30% and maybe not next year..). This site if full of people who are speculating they will get a chearper house iof they wait.

[PogoLocky]

God it aint rocket science. I am currently buying a car. If I thought it would be 30% cheaper next year I would wait until then. The same applies to houses, which is why I am waiting (ok, ok, maybe not 30% and maybe not next year..). This site if full of people who are speculating they will get a chearper house iof they wait.

Need to ask yourself if its worth the wait if they do fall i think it would only be marginal i think the furthest they would fall is to their values in 2005 (before the intrest rate cut) I think the rises since then are just over values.

[Immigrant]

Unfortunately one person can't stop a cycle of the property market, so if you thought we were at the start of a boom, you'd be mad not to buy if you could. Not buying, while it may be principled thing to do, wouldn't change anything.

If you really want to prevent a return of the present situation, it would require some form of government intervention - through tax on BTL or whatever.

[papyrus]

Quite simple if somebody bought a house for £120.000 after a year or so and wanted or needed to buy a bigger house. That bigger house cost £175,000. Houses in their street were selling for £135,000. Why would they want to land thereselves with more debt on their next purchase by selling there own house to help others by having less debt?

the new and bigger house you are talking about would be costing you less. meaning

you would need less debt to buy it.... or is that difficult to understand in some way ??

your present house would sell for less - the new and bigger house would cost less.

it's about everybody in the equation having less debt !

[Casual Observer]

Unfortunately one person can't stop a cycle of the property market, so if you thought we were at the start of a boom, you'd be mad not to buy if you could. Not buying, while it may be principled thing to do, wouldn't change anything.

If you really want to prevent a return of the present situation, it would require some form of government intervention - through tax on BTL or whatever.

Any profit on BTL is already taxed.

[PogoLocky]

the new and bigger house you are talking about would be costing you less. meaning

you would need less debt to buy it.... or is that difficult to understand in some way ??

your present house would sell for less - the new and bigger house would cost less.

it's about everybody in the equation having less debt !

But that would not be posible without govt intervention tax relief incentive or something nobody would give something away for nothing. (unless its family i suppose)

[Casual Observer]

the new and bigger house you are talking about would be costing you less. meaning

you would need less debt to buy it.... or is that difficult to understand in some way ??

your present house would sell for less - the new and bigger house would cost less.

it's about everybody in the equation having less debt !

Home owners with aspirations to trade up to a better house are always better off with falling prices. Those trading down are better off with rising prices.

[nimmmm]

I am far from convinced that house prices cannot slow down of their own acord, particularly in light of slowing economic growth around the world and rising interest rates. There may not be a big crash in real terms (but there could be), but there could be several years of stagnation which would be very healthy for the market.

I am about to buy, but I would not be bothered if my house lost value for several years in real terms - I would not be in a position to move anywhere for another 10 or so anyway.

Edited August 12, 2006 by nimmmm

[PogoLocky]

I am far from convinced that house prices cannot slow down of their own acord, particularly in light of slowing economic growth around the world and rising interest rates. There may not be a big crash in real terms (but there could be), but there could be several years of stagnation which would be very healthy for the market.

I am about to buy, but I would not be bothered if my house lost value for several years in real terms - I would not be in a position to move anywhere for another 10 or so anyway.

Intresting how much are you about to spend on one?

[laurejon]

I am about to buy, but I would not be bothered if my house lost value for several years in real terms - I would not be in a position to move anywhere for another 10 or so anyway.

Unfortunately it would not matter if you care or not. If you had a 20% deposit, and property dropped 25% and you lost your job and had no means to pay the mortgage for 9months then the matter would not be in your hands.

Unfortunately during the bad times credit supply is seriously restricted, the books on property are all but closed to the general public and the banks are looking to reduce their risk.

Banks run on the balance sheet, not sympathy, not sentiment, and certainly not with local communities in mind.

If a certain group of people pop up on their computer when they run their data mining query on what loans represent a high risk, if your name is there you are well and truly sunk.

Remember just as the lightning speed has allowed us to arrange a mortgage in the strking of an Enter key, equally the Banks have a more impressive and far more robust system at sorting the wheat from the Chaff, and believe me they will use it!!.

[Immigrant]

Any profit on BTL is already taxed.

Yes, I realise that thanks. I meant increased tax on BTL or a tax on second homes.